Cracked Block

[History]

After changing a leaking and worn out water pump I noticed a wet spot under the water pump. Looks like the engine block has been let freeze at some point and cracked about a 3 inch long crack. It just seeps like you see around the head gaskets on some A engines but I'm sure will be a problem when I finally get on the road for any distance. Since I don't know if the engine is a worn out junker yet I've decided to try and JB Weld the crack. I figure since there is no pressure and I prep this correctly it should work and if it doesn't I can always go the distance and have it brazed or lock-stitched.

I've drained the coolant and removed the radiator so I could get to the crack. I've used a dremel to V the crack and expose clean metal around so the epoxy has something to stick to. I will drill at each end to stop further cracking. Should I tap those holes and put screws in? I've found another product similar to JB Weld and they even have a video on repairing an engine block. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AT8f9J4_E


I read I believe a member here who said they have done this but used a vacuum and super glue before the JB Weld. Sounds reasonable to me and like a good idea but I don't know if there are any chemical reactions of the glue, antifreeze and the JB Weld?

I know some of you will say don't try this and I get that but I'm not willing to throw much capitol at this at the moment. I think I'm going to go for it and if it works or fails I'll post about it. You can point and say I told you so then. I believe it's all in the preparation but we will see.

Opinions anyway ????

[Kurt in NJ]

smear it with epoxy, maby in 5-10years you will have to do it again

[eagle]

I did it on a Model T head with a nasty crack. Worked great. After it was well cured I refilled it, then when that was well cured I filed and sanded it smooth, then paint. Never leaked, couldn't tell there had ever been a crack. You may want to carefully inspect the rest of the block, frost cracks often times show up along the side of the engine. I used the original JB weld, the quick type doesn't seem quite as good. make sure you do a good job of mixing it. Sounds like your prep is good.

[Neil Wilson]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

smear it with epoxy, maby in 5-10years you will have to do it again

Kurt, Does "epoxy" mean JB Weld or something else?

[hotrodart]

JB Weld was developed for the Army specifically for fixing cracked cast iron engines. It's been used for this purpose on millions of engines with very good success.

[Werner]

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My car is gradually losing the joy that I had. I'm going from one repair to the next. And that for a 35,000 "Top Show Car". In this year I spent almost 4000 for spare parts.

My big frustration is that today I wanted to replace the valve cover after the timing gear renewed and see that suddenly cooling water in the valve chamber is high. Where the fine crack comes from is unclear.

Comparable unfortunately with the theme starter.

[Werner]

Originally Posted by History

... but I don't know if there are any chemical reactions of the glue, antifreeze and the JB Weld?.

Opinions anyway ????

History, guten Abend you depressed suffering comrade!

I've made the experience that epoxy resins are very resistant to engine oil, but not against antyfreese (Glysantin). Because these are polyglycols that dissolve plastics.

The compromise solution would be to use only water with corrosion protection and drain it in winter.


I try it.

[Pete]

Rest assured, if nothing else works, it can be saved by TIG welding.

[dumb person]

Yes you can drill the ends of the crack and push soft wire into the holes & 'peen' it in place with a tiny hammer. Or tap and screw small machine screws in it. Don't drive them in too hard.

I've always wanted to try making a dovetail style cut in the cracks of a water jacket and put tiny holes either side, and solder in some white metal. Never have & hope i never have to.

This video, rough, but it worked well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er0BZVfzyqk

[J and M Machine]

History:
That's a common place for it to crack from ice damage, I would also look on drivers side of block as well. It can be fixed permenantly through metal stitching.
https://www.jandm-machine.com/metalStitching.html

[J and M Machine]

Hello Werner:
That is stress crack we see often , It also can be repaired by metal stitching.

[Werner]

Good evening together,

I'm unlucky! After sanding the crack in the engine block today, I've seen that it's more than 4 inches long. From the back in the 90° bend to the front to the outlet channel.

Therefore JB Weld can not help, because the crack runs between the two outlet holes and gets very hot.

I am at a loss as to whether this can be welded. "Stichin '" - I've looked at -, that I not useable because of the unfavorable surface curvature.

[mike657894]

This guy migs a cast iron pan. I havent tried this yet but will next time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS8OLJ07emg

[fastroadster]

In the old days, we used "Water Glass". Sodium Silicate, you can buy it at a pharmacy. It was an egg preservative. You start up the A, let it warm up good. Then put 4oz of water glass in radiator. Put cap on and drive it. What happens is once the water glass hits air (crack) it hardens up. Been using it on old cars and tractors for years. Sounds Hoaky, but it works......

[1928Mustang]

What rod do you use to tig weld cast iron?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 1928Mustang

What rod do you use to tig weld cast iron?

ER70.
If you need more info, email me.

[Werner]

Hallo and good evening,



in my engine block, the now 5 inch long crack is very deep too into the material. I try to weld this into a special TIG company. Maybe with success.

Does anyone know what that iron ore cast material it was at the building time?



And, by the way: Is there something important, which has to be considered before I lift the engine?



I thank you in advance!

[captndan]

A (good) welder can fix that crack. Amateurs usually cannot.

[richard crow]

at the ends of the crack drill a small hole then hammer in a piece of sorda now get a can of zotight follow instructions your problem is over

[Werner]

Good moning Richard,


please tell me, what is "sorda", what is "zotight"?


Thanks.

[History]

I'm not sure on the "sorda" maybe it's solder?? "Zotight" is "Zo-tite" and by reading the description seems to be an awesome product if true.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/zo-...cks-p2514.aspx

Originally Posted by Werner

Good moning Richard,


please tell me, what is "sorda", what is "zotight"?


Thanks.

[Corley]

Originally Posted by Werner

I've made the experience that epoxy resins are very resistant to engine oil, but not against antyfreese (Glysantin). Because these are polyglycols that dissolve plastics.

Don't tell the new car manufacturers this, they will have to stop using all those plastic parts in newer engines.

[Werner]

Originally Posted by History

... by reading the description seems to be an awesome product if true.

Miracles happens from time to time!

Don't tell the new car manufacturers this, they will have to stop using all those plastic parts in newer engines.

That was too inaccurately described by me/ wrong translation. I meant with "plastic" two components epoxy glue like JB Weld etc.

[ryanheacox]

The Car Talk guys used to mention a product called Porter Seal when discussing crack repairs. Anyone ever use it/ is it still made?

[History]

I called yesterday for pricing on the lock-n-stitch product and was told it would be $250-$300 just for the kit. I may take it and get it welded considering that price. Like I said, the engine is a mystery at this point that may be worn out. It sounds like it's going to come apart but after I cleaned the spark plugs it sounds like a new engine.

My crack looks exactly like the one posted by j and m machine except mine was not as spread open. Mine was hard to see and was only seeping but same shape and spot. I'm in no hurry so I'll think on it for awhile and decide. I'm not trying to be cheap but I do want it FIXED/REPAIRED the cheapest I can get by with.

[Werner]

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Good evening,

"Stiching" is not possible within the tunnel-shaped valve chamber. -

Today I've milled a 1/4" wide and 1/5" deep V-suture along the crack, and tomorrow a friend dentist drills the crack at the ends with 1/24 " very deep.

Then the engine is going to a specialized welding company on Monday.

I will report.

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by Werner

Good evening,

"Stiching" is not possible within the tunnel-shaped valve chamber. -

Today I've milled a 1/4" wide and 1/5" deep V-suture along the crack, and tomorrow a friend dentist drills the crack at the ends with 1/24 " very deep.

Then the engine is going to a specialized welding company on Monday.

I will report.

I guess you didn't see the pictures I had posted to you regarding crack in same area. it is repairable if you could find someone in Germany to do so.
I hope they know how to preheat the block and use proper welding material?
If not done properly you will have a bigger crack than what you've started with.

[Terry, NJ]

Halo Werner! Wie Gehts? Tell me too! The closest thing to "Sorda" I know, is the contraction "sorta" which is a facetious way of saying "Sort of". I'm sorry about your engine block, but we've been welding or stitching blocks for a long time and we've almost perfected it. 90 Year old Model A blocks are prone towards cracking. There is a possibility that the German G28 blocks do not crack so easily, Also, the Russian GAZ. You might look into importing a Russian GAZ, model B (later engine, same block, 50 pferd starke, HP) These engines were produced up into the 1950s and are available.
Terry

[History]

Well I took it to a welder and he told me it shouldn't be a problem as he was experienced in repairing cast. I believe he used a mig welder dedicated to flux core use. The Weld looked pretty good and he said he thought he had it. I paid him and took the car back to the shop and put the radiator on, was filling with anti freeze and it was leaking pretty bad. I drained it and took it back this morning. This time we plugged it and tried filling with water to only find it leaking again and again. His last try was with silver and a torch and it didn't work and actually caused a new crack to go laterally above the lower crack.


He did tig it also.

I'm not sure if he just didn't know what he was doing or just bad material to work with. My block may actually be ruined. I may try lock stitch or grind all the mess off and try JB Weld.

I really thought welding it was a safe way to go.

Can you use any screws or small bolts for lock stitching or is there something special about the lock stitch kits and bolts?

Any suggestions other than I told ya so's.

[Werner]

Good morning History, my godness!

History, is your welder a specialist in such large blocks? Have you been told that the ends of the crack need to be drilled thin so it can not to break any further? Was the crack course 1/4" deep and wide milled out?

The welding line must always be very short. 1 inch then 15 minutes rest so that the block is not too hot on spot. Never weld along in one piece.

There is a simple test procedure for hairline cracks, we call it Red/White-Cracktest from the spray can.

I wish you great success!


(My engine is not finished yet from the welding factory.)

[History]

Werner, looking from my new perspective, I'd say the welder doesn't know what he's doing, he doesn't have a clue. I would have went with the lock stitch initially but thought the cost too much at the kit being $250 for enough to do a 3 inch crack. Guess that would have been a bargain now.

Not sure what I will do at this point, I have no idea if it can be saved. I explained to the welder that I wouldn't have brought it to him knowing it would eliminate any other options as I'm afraid it has. They do some pretty serious work so I thought I could trust his opinion. I'll deal with them with caution (If I ever deal with them again) with and only simple things (I thought this was simple).

My old welding friend passed away last year or we wouldn't be discussing this. He was very good and understood metal well, he was cautious but competent. I miss him for more reasons than his welding but his welding is missed.

[jhowes]

I hope you have good luck with your engine. I have one that was cracked but with my eyesight I couldn't be sure where the crack was. Solution, I used an epoxy that is designed for marine use. They apparently repair cracked situations that go under water at times. After smearing the area where the crack was (good prep first) I used the waterglas mentioned above and the engine is saved for a while anyway. Jack

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by History

His last try was with silver and a torch and it didn't work and actually caused a new crack to go laterally above the lower crack.


He did tig it also.

I may try lock stitch or grind all the mess off and try JB Weld.

I really thought welding it was a safe way to go.

Can you use any screws or small bolts for lock stitching or is there something special about the lock stitch kits and bolts?

Any suggestions other than I told ya so's.

Sounds like some lock stitching & JB weld to finish is your next option.
Some lock stitching bolts i've seen online (But never used in real life, but i wouldn't mind seeing them in reality) had a thread profile cut like a saw tooth, except the steep part of the saw tooth pushed back over the trough of the valley of the thread. By using a tap with this same thread profile, the 'bolt' would actually clamp the 2 pieces of metal together to some degree.
Then there's the "drill several holes either side & drive in the purpose made 'key' method.

For what it's worth, i've used regular bolts in minor cracks. But it's not the preferred way. I make do with them for lack of better tooling.

[sphanna]

Werner: I am very. sorry for the troubles and disappointments you are experiencing your car. You have been getting a lot of help here and I hope you get everything taken care of. You in post #17 asked about caution when lifting your engine if you have to . I am not one of the experienced and proven experts here, but I do not want you to lift the front of the engine when in the car without loosening the rear engine mounts. I would hate to hear that you'd cracked your flywheel housing. You have enough problems as it is. I wish you success and the reclaiming of your joy in your car.

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by History

Werner, looking from my new perspective, I'd say the welder doesn't know what he's doing, he doesn't have a clue. I would have went with the lock stitch initially but thought the cost too much at the kit being $250 for enough to do a 3 inch crack. Guess that would have been a bargain now.

Not sure what I will do at this point, I have no idea if it can be saved. I explained to the welder that I wouldn't have brought it to him knowing it would eliminate any other options as I'm afraid it has. They do some pretty serious work so I thought I could trust his opinion. I'll deal with them with caution (If I ever deal with them again) with and only simple things (I thought this was simple).

My old welding friend passed away last year or we wouldn't be discussing this. He was very good and understood metal well, he was cautious but competent. I miss him for more reasons than his welding but his welding is missed.

This is the reason I posted the pictures. To Both Werner and yourself.
Everyone thinks the blocks are straightforward to weld, only way to do it properly would be to furnace weld it if you chose that route.
The metal stitching with the threaded pins we use is seamless and once done will never split open.
History your block is history as the only way to seal the crack now is to use some form of sealer on inside as well as out.
The rod that he used will surely keep cracking as it isn't same molecular expansion rate and cast iron will crack right next to the welds as you've found out.

http://www.jandm-machine.com/metalStitching.html


If you open this link and notice the second picture where they kept welding the block with nickel rod, it was cracking faster than they could weld it.
We had to cut out the welded area as it was shattered from the heat.
The heat from the weld also make the iron like glass so there's no way to drill and pin it now it has to be removed and a new piece installed.

[Werner]

Hallo,

today I got back the welded engine block. I hope thate the seam is tight.

It will take some time, but I will report.

Thank you all for hints!

[katy]

Thanks for the update, Do you have a picture of the repair?

[whirnot]

I have a block that was seeping, and after cleaning, could see it had been welded. I just cleaned it up and used JB Weld. Worked fine.

[Werner]

Hallo und guten Tag,

just made some pictures to shows the external work. The pinkish-white discoloration are residues from the final crack-tightness test.

I am currently a little ill, therefore I'l show the next step, when the seam is cleaned.

[mike657894]

How much care and time did the failed welders take? I once welded a firing pin. You get one zap at a time. That takes patience. Not a lot of heat in one zap. Or a continous second of welding. Im just an amatuer, but one with patience. I would try on a scrap piece first. I might have a wet towel on hand. Have you ever tried to weld body steel or rusty body steel. You get a few seconds before a hole melts. Mentioned else where play dough makes a great heat pull putty.

[katy]

Thanks for the pictures, looks good. Hope it works out for you.

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Werner

Hallo und guten Tag,

just made some pictures to shows the external work. The pinkish-white discoloration are residues from the final crack-tightness test.

I am currently a little ill, therefore I'l show the next step, when the seam is cleaned.

Very interesting appearance. Looks pretty good! We are all hoping for the best. Get well.

[Ranchero50]

Originally Posted by Werner

Hallo und guten Tag,

just made some pictures to shows the external work. The pinkish-white discoloration are residues from the final crack-tightness test.

I am currently a little ill, therefore I'l show the next step, when the seam is cleaned.

Make sure you knock the weld spalls off the springs and clean everything really well.

Only real problem I ever had with cast was cooking the oils and contaminates out of the metal before striking an arc. Preheat it until a pine stick smokes on contact, Mig it hot and low feed and keep it hot with a torch or salamander while it cools.

[Phil Brown]

The welding of cast iron is not really any black art, welds pretty much like any steel. The secret is in the pre heat AND very slow post heat, or controlling the cool down of the area that was hot enough to weld together. Cools too fast it will crack next to the new weld every time.

[Werner]

The beginning and end of the fracture was stop-drilled with 1/12" diameter of an inch deep into the water channel. The course of the fracture line was milled 1/4" deep and 1/3" wide a V-seam.

Then were 3 lines overlapping TIG seams welded filled. Every 1" of the length, the tensing forces were extracted with a compressed air needle gun.

It had welded in a special welding company. I do not know the working time, the bill was about $ 340,-.

[tj donahoe]

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I have had good luck with a good block sealer.about $35 lasts 3 years...

[larrys40]

Werner. First of all I would confirm this is where you’re leak is actually coming from . Best accomplished with a pressure test which means disassembly. Are you sure the leak isn’t a head gasket failure? Which is showing up in the oil and valve chamber ?

The cost and time to fix that block probably isn’t worth it in my opinion.
I would entertain a rebuilt short block which is least expensive route.
Guys have spent a lot of money fixing cracks and stitching and then still have a block that may be leaking or having issues and is always a problem can be.

Just my advise... I know your across the pond so not sure your availability there .
All the best
Larry shepard

[eagle]

the bill was about $ 340.
Seems very reasonable and looks like a nice job. Will be interesting to hear after you've ran it for a while.

[Werner]

Attached is a photo of the cleaned weld. It is easy to see that only short distances were welded.

Unfortunately, welding beads have jumped to the rioght valve spring. They can be abraded, but the risk of this spring breaking is now high.

[History]

So I took a grinder and ground off/out the mess the freshman welder made. Got back to the cracks and the new ones . Cleaned up a large area around that and slapped the JB Weld to it. I made sure it was clean with no oil or grease and had fresh ground metal for the JB to adhere to. I mentioned earlier in the the thread that I had read while searching that (I believe it was Tom W (with the train in his avatar) (sorry can't remember name) that said he did this while the block was under a vacuum and also used super glue first. I didn't have any super glue when I decided to roll but I did have a vacuum. I took my shop vac and attached it to the water outlet on top of the engine and fired it up. It was a good solid connection and I could actually see the JB Weld being pulled into the crack. . I didn't let it pull enough in to cause problems as it had thickened somewhat before I turned the vacuum on.

We'll see what happens but I don't think it will leak just sitting there. It will either be the jb deteriorates or expansion/contraction opens it up. I've read many many stories of people using this as I have and them saying it never failed on them. I did a gas tank several years ago on a little Japanese mini truck I have with a crack in the tank about 3" where the previous owner backed into something. It doesn't get moist around the crack and there is always gas in contact with it. Hasn't leaked a drop. Maybe petroleum is different than antifreeze in this regard. I had nothing to lose at this point so wish me luck.

[Werner]

Guten Tag History.

Nice that you continued the post. Often you don't get any feedback and you don't learn whether the measure was successful or unsuccessful.

Which 2 component resin adhesive did you use please? And at what temperature?

Note: Since glycol antifreeze slowly destroys epoxy glue, it is better to use only corrosion protection to the cooling water. There is industrial corrosion protection for water-cooled boring mills.

[History]

I used JB Weld. I also had a small heater pointed at the front of the engine, before, during and after. I cleaned it really well and ground all the paint from the surrounding area, ground along the line of the cracks and had the vacuum going while applying the epoxy. I would have went with the other epoxy but it's very expensive. I may do as you've mentioned and not use antifreeze. I will add the corrosion protection and just water and drain when it's cold. It's stored inside my shop anyway, even with out heat I've never had anything freeze inside. Hopefully it works and I can can concentrate on other things. Wish me luck and I hope your troubles have eased as well.

Originally Posted by Werner

Guten Tag History.

Nice that you continued the post. Often you don't get any feedback and you don't learn whether the measure was successful or unsuccessful.

Which 2 component resin adhesive did you use please? And at what temperature?

Note: Since glycol antifreeze slowly destroys epoxy glue, it is better to use only corrosion protection to the cooling water. There is industrial corrosion protection for water-cooled boring mills.

[alexiskai]

I'd like to get some data on the glycol/epoxy issue, it sounds to me like another one of those old mechanics' tales.

[Russ/40]

Which JB Weld did you use? Don't use JB Quick, only the slow cure!

[History]

I used JB Weld cold Weld original formula.

[Werner]

Hallo und guten Tag Colin.

Glysantin is a (PEG) polyethylene glycol and dissolves many plastics that contains plasticizers. Also epoxy resins.
(Resistant are e.g. 'Nylon', 'Teflon', silicone rubber and sometimes 'Viton'.)

In the photo you see an attempt many years ago for a temperature sensor on my Traction Avant. I used R&G epoxy. This condition was shown about after 2 weeks / 300 mls later.


Hallo History.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. My motor / gearbox / clutch unit is unfortunately not yet installed. I'm still waiting for the steering shaft. I think it is better to install the revised steering at first.






-

[ryanheacox]

Originally Posted by Werner

Hallo und guten Tag Colin.

Glysantin is a (PEG) polyethylene glycol and dissolves many plastics that contains plasticizers. Also epoxy resins.
(Resistant are e.g. 'Nylon', 'Teflon', silicone rubber and sometimes 'Viton'.)


-

I believe this is also the reason behind the failure rate of the modern head gasket.

[Gene F]

years ago... I know a guy that his gas fired small dump truck had a crack in the block. He used water-glass, and said he drove it another 3 years before he went to another company and it was just fine. (Ohio)

[DHZIEMAN]

JB Weld will do the job!