The Ford Barn

29ModelA · 08-12-2013, 09:12 PM

I have a friend with a Murray 4 door in very good shape. Everything is solid and straight - except the windshield is sagging and hitting the cowl because he can't keep it tight into the header wood. He would like to replace just this piece if possible so he can open and close the windshield. How bad of job would this be?

Thank you

Mike V. Florida · 08-12-2013, 10:30 PM

If I remember right, the header cap is attached to body and the wood from the front of the car to the rear is bolted to a bracket that also attached to the header.

1930artdeco · 08-12-2013, 10:32 PM

That is the one piece my dad did NOT change when he restored his car. Namely he and I are scared to try and replicate it. My gut feeling is that you will need to do a lot of tearing apartof the car to get it out and replaced. but if it has to be done it has to be done.

Mike

Roadster62 · 08-12-2013, 10:41 PM

I've got two, that I can look at tomorrow, a complete cowl and a visor with the header. The visor is leaded into the top, so there is a lot of work to get at the wood. Maybe making a metal flitch plate is the way to fix your problem. Bob

Farrell In Vancouver · 08-13-2013, 09:55 AM

What about just repairing the existing screwholes with glue and wood plugs?
That way just the top hinge and windshield need only be removed for the fix. Hopefully the header is sound enough to allow this?

chiliman · 08-13-2013, 10:02 AM

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29ModelA · 08-13-2013, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell In Vancouver

What about just repairing the existing screwholes with glue and wood plugs?
That way just the top hinge and windshield need only be removed for the fix. Hopefully the header is sound enough to allow this?

We had talked about this, but was not sure it would hold. The rest of the body wood seems to be in dang good shape or I don't think he would mind tearing it apart completely. The doors close better and more solid than many modern cars.

Tom Wesenberg · 08-13-2013, 05:32 PM

I would try the easy fix first as in #5 and 6. I've heard many good reports with both ways to fix it.

KGBnut · 08-13-2013, 08:52 PM

I just did the roof in my 30 Coupe. I can't say how it compares to a Murray, but I will say that it proved to be a much bigger job than I anticipated. One of the biggest challenges was the proper fitting of the header. We got the roof wood from Bratton's. The quality was great. Everyone tells you that the header has to be custom fitted, but no one is clear about what that entails. We had the fool thing in and out at least three times.

If I could have repaired the existing header with glue and dowels, it would have been a lot easier. I would recommend at least giving it a try.

I think you would need to pull only the windshield/hinge, and perhaps the header cover to repair the header. Replacing it would leave you with no choice but to remove the front of the headliner and the roof.

My original roof wood was unrecoverable, and I'm really glad that I tackled the job. The results were good, and I got tremendous satisfaction... but still wish I didn't have to....

Good luck whatever you decide.

Dick Carne · 08-13-2013, 09:07 PM

Both the Briggs and Murray straight windshield bodies have similar set-ups for the wood header, and yes, it is a fairly comprehensive job to change out a header. As Mike stated above, the side rails are tied into the front header, both on top with wood screws and with a pair of angle braces on either side of the front inside header. The front face plate under the visor is also nailed across the top, which begs the question of both how to get the old nails out and then how to nail the new ones in with the visor on. There is also a metal tack strip that goes across the top of the header that ties the top material down - which must be removed and reattached, with special emphasis on not damaging the exiting top fabric during the removal process, and then sealing the top again once replaced. And then there is the inside upholstery panel that attaches to the header once installed.

By far and above the best interim resolution strategy would be to drill out any weak screw holes and glue in an oak dowel, then drill for a new screw hole once the glue securing the dowel has set up - still not a real easy task considering that the windshield will require removal, dowel installation, drilling for new screws, alignment, and re-installation of the windshield - but when faced with the alternative of a complete header replacement, this is by far the better choice if the present wood header still has any remaining structural integrity.

Good luck which ever route you decide to take.

Dick

Quigley1930 · 08-13-2013, 09:38 PM

I would remove the windshield and hinge then poke an awl in the holes to see if there's any solid wood. If it feels good use drive some dowel stock in the holes. I like dowel plugs as hey are grooved and hold glue better. You may have to use more than one depending on the depth of the hole. If you don't feel any solid wood Maybe remove the inside header pane(upholstery) as this will give you an idea what you are facing.

Sewall Tyler

Jordan · 08-14-2013, 11:49 AM

Can't you cut a zig zag in the middle of the header and place each half in separately? Then glue it together once you have both halves in?

clocey · 08-14-2013, 12:14 PM

I am just now completing the replacement of my header and top fabric. I agree with all that has been said that it is a involved project. The new header required a LOT of sanding and filing to get it to fit the way I wanted it to.
The main reason for you to try to repair the header is the need to pull the hidem and tacks from the visor to free it from the roof material. If you are not planning on replacing the roof, this could be VERY tricky. Good luck and keep us posted on what is decided.

chiliman · 08-14-2013, 07:19 PM

take a surange mix the pc wooide and inject like a shot let set over night and drill sure fixed the saging doors on mighty manfred have a blessed day

richsfords · 03-19-2017, 11:18 AM

Had enough of leaks, replacing roof, and with the header exposed can it be replaced at this time without tearing apart the whole car.
scale 1-10 its about a 5, thinking its the best time to do it if worth while. thanks

aonemarine · 03-19-2017, 12:32 PM

Learn from the wooden boat guys

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Terry, NJ · 03-19-2017, 12:44 PM

Go to "My A" in my profile. Mine is a Briggs, but I don't believe the is any great difference in the headers. I have a lot of pics of my Town Sedan's header. Unless you are an accomplished cabinet maker, I wouldn't try to fabricate one myself. It's an assembly of several different pieces with angles and curves.
Terry

Smurkey · 03-19-2017, 06:52 PM

It's going to be a tough replacement if you don't plan on removing the roof panels, but I think it can be done.

You'll unscrew the windshield hinge, remove the upholstery cardboard, and pull the nails for the exterior "cap." If you leave the roof sides on it'll be tough to get at the attachment points and the bow "stringer."

After reflection during typing this I think you should plan for it when you plan a roof replace/repaint...good stopgap might be an epoxy or wood hole fill. Good luck, post pics.

Jay's Model A's · 03-19-2017, 08:05 PM

I recently replaced all of the wood above the windows on a 30 Murray. I cut all of them out including the front and rear headers. I got the wood from a shop in South Carolina. When I received the wood everything seamed to be either too long or too short. The fellow at the wood shop said to either use a pipe stretcher or a set of ratchet straps to align the metal body, everything fits like a glove..I did have to use a 5 lb.hammer to get the rear header in the correct position. In regards to the front header, the side metal roof panels can be taken loose from the front metal panel, you may have to shave some wood from the front panel to get the front and side panels to true up, again you may need to shave some front panel and get your ratchet straps to tighten all of the wood and metal to line up correctly, then you put on your visor on. My doors align great, and the body looks great...Jay Pearcy

Utopia Texas · 03-19-2017, 09:33 PM

I had the same problem back in 1988 when I was rebuilding my '31 and this was by myself and without the Internet. Poking into the screw holes in the header I found two areas that appeared to be soft past the holes so not knowing any better I bought some two part epoxy, the kind with two Siamese syringes connected together and pumped as much as I could into all the screw holes. Two of the holes took more than a screw void. Let it dry and installed the windshield. All these years later everything is still just fine and solid.

08-12-2013, 09:12 PM	#1
29ModelA Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Owosso, MI Posts: 673	Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I have a friend with a Murray 4 door in very good shape. Everything is solid and straight - except the windshield is sagging and hitting the cowl because he can't keep it tight into the header wood. He would like to replace just this piece if possible so he can open and close the windshield. How bad of job would this be? Thank you __________________ 1929 Model A Barn find. California car, just a few more parts to find. Interior, steering box (rebuild), and I am sure much more!

08-12-2013, 10:30 PM	#2
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? If I remember right, the header cap is attached to body and the wood from the front of the car to the rear is bolted to a bracket that also attached to the header. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

08-12-2013, 10:32 PM	#3
1930artdeco Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lynden, Wa Posts: 3,550	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? That is the one piece my dad did NOT change when he restored his car. Namely he and I are scared to try and replicate it. My gut feeling is that you will need to do a lot of tearing apartof the car to get it out and replaced. but if it has to be done it has to be done. Mike __________________ 1930 TownSedan (Briggs) 1957 Country Sedan

08-12-2013, 10:41 PM	#4
Roadster62 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ridgefield, Ct Posts: 3,441	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I've got two, that I can look at tomorrow, a complete cowl and a visor with the header. The visor is leaded into the top, so there is a lot of work to get at the wood. Maybe making a metal flitch plate is the way to fix your problem. Bob __________________ They don't have to run to be enjoyed. I'm here to enjoy the hobby, and enjoy the cars no matter what they look like. Most of the worlds problems are electrical. Last edited by Roadster62; 08-13-2013 at 06:33 PM.

08-13-2013, 10:02 AM	#6
chiliman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Liberty, MO Posts: 201	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) fill the screw holes with pc woodie then drill reinstall screws its great stuff have a blessed day

08-13-2013, 09:55 AM	#5
Farrell In Vancouver Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pitt Meadows BC Posts: 1,003	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? What about just repairing the existing screwholes with glue and wood plugs? That way just the top hinge and windshield need only be removed for the fix. Hopefully the header is sound enough to allow this?

08-13-2013, 05:32 PM	#8
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I would try the easy fix first as in #5 and 6. I've heard many good reports with both ways to fix it.

08-13-2013, 08:52 PM	#9
KGBnut Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Southwestern Connecticut Posts: 931	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I just did the roof in my 30 Coupe. I can't say how it compares to a Murray, but I will say that it proved to be a much bigger job than I anticipated. One of the biggest challenges was the proper fitting of the header. We got the roof wood from Bratton's. The quality was great. Everyone tells you that the header has to be custom fitted, but no one is clear about what that entails. We had the fool thing in and out at least three times. If I could have repaired the existing header with glue and dowels, it would have been a lot easier. I would recommend at least giving it a try. I think you would need to pull only the windshield/hinge, and perhaps the header cover to repair the header. Replacing it would leave you with no choice but to remove the front of the headliner and the roof. My original roof wood was unrecoverable, and I'm really glad that I tackled the job. The results were good, and I got tremendous satisfaction... but still wish I didn't have to.... Good luck whatever you decide. __________________ Style beats speed any day, and with a lot fewer tickets.

08-13-2013, 09:07 PM	#10
Dick Carne Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fayetteville, Georgia Posts: 467	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? Both the Briggs and Murray straight windshield bodies have similar set-ups for the wood header, and yes, it is a fairly comprehensive job to change out a header. As Mike stated above, the side rails are tied into the front header, both on top with wood screws and with a pair of angle braces on either side of the front inside header. The front face plate under the visor is also nailed across the top, which begs the question of both how to get the old nails out and then how to nail the new ones in with the visor on. There is also a metal tack strip that goes across the top of the header that ties the top material down - which must be removed and reattached, with special emphasis on not damaging the exiting top fabric during the removal process, and then sealing the top again once replaced. And then there is the inside upholstery panel that attaches to the header once installed. By far and above the best interim resolution strategy would be to drill out any weak screw holes and glue in an oak dowel, then drill for a new screw hole once the glue securing the dowel has set up - still not a real easy task considering that the windshield will require removal, dowel installation, drilling for new screws, alignment, and re-installation of the windshield - but when faced with the alternative of a complete header replacement, this is by far the better choice if the present wood header still has any remaining structural integrity. Good luck which ever route you decide to take. Dick

08-13-2013, 09:38 PM	#11
Quigley1930 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Middleburg, Virginia Posts: 421	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I would remove the windshield and hinge then poke an awl in the holes to see if there's any solid wood. If it feels good use drive some dowel stock in the holes. I like dowel plugs as hey are grooved and hold glue better. You may have to use more than one depending on the depth of the hole. If you don't feel any solid wood Maybe remove the inside header pane(upholstery) as this will give you an idea what you are facing. Sewall Tyler

08-14-2013, 11:49 AM	#12
Jordan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ft. Worth Posts: 1,006	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? Can't you cut a zig zag in the middle of the header and place each half in separately? Then glue it together once you have both halves in? __________________ Cowtown A's

08-14-2013, 12:14 PM	#13
clocey Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bettendorf, Iowa Posts: 110	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I am just now completing the replacement of my header and top fabric. I agree with all that has been said that it is a involved project. The new header required a LOT of sanding and filing to get it to fit the way I wanted it to. The main reason for you to try to repair the header is the need to pull the hidem and tacks from the visor to free it from the roof material. If you are not planning on replacing the roof, this could be VERY tricky. Good luck and keep us posted on what is decided. __________________ 1930 Model A Fordor Murray Body

08-14-2013, 07:19 PM	#14
chiliman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Liberty, MO Posts: 201	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? take a surange mix the pc wooide and inject like a shot let set over night and drill sure fixed the saging doors on mighty manfred have a blessed day

03-19-2017, 11:18 AM	#15
richsfords Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 140	replacing roof S/W Had enough of leaks, replacing roof, and with the header exposed can it be replaced at this time without tearing apart the whole car. scale 1-10 its about a 5, thinking its the best time to do it if worth while. thanks __________________ *Richard in New Bern.* *When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it” - Henry Ford***

03-19-2017, 12:32 PM	#16
aonemarine Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Delaware Posts: 252	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? Learn from the wooden boat guys https://www.westmarine.com/buy/boatl...04_120_001_009

03-19-2017, 12:44 PM	#17
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? Go to "My A" in my profile. Mine is a Briggs, but I don't believe the is any great difference in the headers. I have a lot of pics of my Town Sedan's header. Unless you are an accomplished cabinet maker, I wouldn't try to fabricate one myself. It's an assembly of several different pieces with angles and curves. Terry

03-19-2017, 06:52 PM	#18
Smurkey Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Esko, MN Posts: 257	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? It's going to be a tough replacement if you don't plan on removing the roof panels, but I think it can be done. You'll unscrew the windshield hinge, remove the upholstery cardboard, and pull the nails for the exterior "cap." If you leave the roof sides on it'll be tough to get at the attachment points and the bow "stringer." After reflection during typing this I think you should plan for it when you plan a roof replace/repaint...good stopgap might be an epoxy or wood hole fill. Good luck, post pics.

03-19-2017, 08:05 PM	#19
Jay's Model A's Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: New Braunfels, Texas.. Member of Alamo A's, MARC & MAFCA Posts: 48	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I recently replaced all of the wood above the windows on a 30 Murray. I cut all of them out including the front and rear headers. I got the wood from a shop in South Carolina. When I received the wood everything seamed to be either too long or too short. The fellow at the wood shop said to either use a pipe stretcher or a set of ratchet straps to align the metal body, everything fits like a glove..I did have to use a 5 lb.hammer to get the rear header in the correct position. In regards to the front header, the side metal roof panels can be taken loose from the front metal panel, you may have to shave some wood from the front panel to get the front and side panels to true up, again you may need to shave some front panel and get your ratchet straps to tighten all of the wood and metal to line up correctly, then you put on your visor on. My doors align great, and the body looks great...Jay Pearcy

03-19-2017, 09:33 PM	#20
Utopia Texas Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Brookshire & Cat Spring,Texas Posts: 222	Re: Can the header wood on a Murray 4 door be replaced without a total teardown? I had the same problem back in 1988 when I was rebuilding my '31 and this was by myself and without the Internet. Poking into the screw holes in the header I found two areas that appeared to be soft past the holes so not knowing any better I bought some two part epoxy, the kind with two Siamese syringes connected together and pumped as much as I could into all the screw holes. Two of the holes took more than a screw void. Let it dry and installed the windshield. All these years later everything is still just fine and solid.