Edison's Model A picture from Gilmore Museum

[duffer]

Here is the car that i took the A-1 vin from that caused all the commotion...I guess i can be forgiven now. If anyone wants a larger picture i can email it to you.

[duffer]

The attachments would not let me put my other picture in ...It kept saying "download failed. It was 6.2 MB , 4608 X 3072 pixels...

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by duffer

The attachments would not let me put my other picture in ...It kept saying "download failed. It was 6.2 MB , 4608 X 3072 pixels...

duffer ....................
You can not post a photo on Fordbarn, which is more than 800 pixals wide. If you resize it, it will probably work.
MIKE

[Joe K]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding Edison's Model A. I don't remember the specifics except to say that the car seemingly was made and re-made by Ford himself to suit Edison or himself on at least two occasions.

Steve P may remember more as he no doubt paid attention to the "type study" aspects of the engine and other parts.

Joe K

[duffer]

Maybe this picture will be bigger.

[Phil]

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I would to have an email of the picture.

Think I have read Henry built the car as a Pheaton, mr Edison was getting up in years and did not want an open car so ford pulled the body an installed a tudor body. May just be an urbin legend.

[duffer]

Last try for size .I'm getting better.

[walt jones]

Just saw this car Tuesday while at the MAFFI Museum to deliver a car. The museum and all of its cars are beautiful.

[Mitch//pa]

[SkimmerBob]

Hey Phil I think it was the reverse. Ford gave him a Tudor But Tom liked open cars. so he took it back later & changed the body to what he (Tom) wanted.

[Brendan]

that's kool, where is the Gilmore museum?

[callcoy]

The Museum is northwest of Battle Creek Mich. about a half an hour or northeast of Kalamazoo maybe 15 minutes. About equal distance from Detroit and Chicago, a little longer to Indianapolis. Will be there the May 15th-19th after the the Blue Ridge tour, I live in your town, contact me after I return June 15th and I can give you more details.

[Phil]

Gilmore and the new Model A museum are in Hickory corners, MI.

Yeah, story of my life close but to cookie. Thought it might be a legend anyway.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by SkimmerBob

Hey Phil I think it was the reverse. Ford gave him a Tudor But Tom liked open cars. so he took it back later & changed the body to what he (Tom) wanted.

Yep, went back and did my history lesson. Tudor then Phaeton body, my bad. Wonder what happened to the one Will Rogers got?

[lookin-backtexas]

Originally Posted by Phil

Yep, went back and did my history lesson. Tudor then Phaeton body, my bad. Wonder what happened to the one Will Rogers got?

Phil:
This won't tell what happened to the one Will Rogers got but it's a nice "overview" of what Will Rogers thought about Henry Ford:

Will Rogers on Henry Ford and the Automobile
(comments made before 1935)

"There is more money invested in garages than in schools and churches. 98.5% of the building permits in small towns are for filling stations. Over two-thirds of the unemployed in this country are working in filling stations. If people slept in filling stations instead of just driving by them, it would solve the housing problem of this country.
"There are 300,000 men just pumping gas into cars every minute of the day in America alone...193,000 just fixing punctures...800,000 just looking on, with 750,000 of 'em offering advice - .009% successfully...[There's]187,000 people every minute of the day just cranking the old ones [Model Ts and Model As], 81 with results. There is 43,000 just holding up the hoods of Fords looking at them, 42,598 with the same expression.
"[Henry] Ford made a car that runs with your feet instead of your head and hands. He was smart enough to know more people knew how to use their feet than they do their head or hands. He has made more business for an undertaker than any other one thing, with the exception of Prohibition. Monday moprning after a beautiful sunshiny Sunday finds the undertaker singing at his work.
"He has caused more people to go into debt than for rent or food. He has drove more states, counties, towns, and federal governments into debt than the World War. We owe more for roads than we did to persuade the Germans to 'Please leave Belgium.' Had we no good roads, we would miss all the scandal in the Highway Department. No state ever worries about who will be governor - it's who will be on the highway commission? I care not who writes a nation's songs: give me the highway contracts to deal out and I will show you what hard work, perseverances and taking advantage of your opportunities will do. He has given us our second biggest problem we have today, namely: 'After it's parked (and you come back and get it), how am I going to get home in it through the traffic?' That's why so many people leave 'em parked.
Great educators try to teach poeople, preachers try to change people, but no man produced through the accepted channels has moved the world like Henry Ford. He put wheels on our homes - a man's castle is his sedan; life's greatest catastrophe is a puncture. Americans don't fear the Lord as much as they do the next payment. Everybody is rushing to get somewhere where they have no business being, so they can hurry back again to the place they should never have left. "So good luck, Mr. Ford. It will take a hundred years to tell whether you have helped us or hurt us, but you certainly didn't leave us like you found us."

In fact Will Rogers actually nominated Henry Ford for President on May 31, 1923 in New York City. He said Democrats are the middle of the road party, Republicans are the straddle the road party and dubbed Henry Ford as head of what he called the "All Over The Road" party; his speech said Mr. Ford should win the election since he already carries 2/3rd of the American public and concluded with the remark, "There's no reason there shouldn't be a Ford in the White House, they're everywhere else." Here's the actual 2 minute speech you can listen to from the History Channel:
http://www.history.com/speeches/will...-for-president

[duffer]

Originally Posted by Brendan

that's kool, where is the Gilmore museum?

go on google and search gilmore car museum..there are alot of good pictures on there

[Ronnie Lawson]

2013-03-17_15-41-59_927.jpg
This is the No. 1

[duffer]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Lawson

Attachment 128733
This is the No. 1

Same pictures as my earlier post.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Lawson

Attachment 128733
This is the No. 1

Are we sure about that?

Just what is the actual LENGTH of the engine number pad in *A1* using the real car it is in?

Please take a photo of the pad with a ruler underneath the pad itself if anyone is going to the museum in the near future.

Pluck

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

Are we sure about that?

Just what is the actual LENGTH of the engine number pad in *A1* using the real car it is in?

Please take a photo of the pad with a ruler underneath the pad itself if anyone is going to the museum in the near future.

Pluck

Somewhere, in the judging standards perhaps, they discuss the "type study" of engine number pads. IIRC, the earliest pads were larger, "shield shaped," almost incorporating the water inlet flange, and were set aside early due to changes in the production methods of the engine block?

This apparently all part of the controversy of this supposed "engine No. 1."

I have a replacement engine that came with my truck. It has a "blank" unmolested number pad, very obviously as it left Ford. Maybe I'll stamp it "No. 1?"

Well, there is no law against adding to the confusion?

Kidding, of course.

Joe K

[duffer]

I am going back out to Gilmore museum today ..i'll take a lot of pictures and under car too if they will let me get close and under the car.And i'll ask about history of the car too.

[walt jones]

Jim Spawn who was one of the those responsible for aquiring the car with engine number one the supposed Tom Edison car for the MAFFI Museum, told me that this car belonged to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. They did not have it on display but had it in long term storage. When approched they aggreed to alow MAFFI to display it at the museum.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

Are we sure about that?

Just what is the actual LENGTH of the engine number pad in *A1* using the real car it is in?

Please take a photo of the pad with a ruler underneath the pad itself if anyone is going to the museum in the near future.

Pluck

I'm with you...but I know...photos lie?
The other thing from this photo...NOW...the pad IS TOO long.
The bolt hole spreed on the ID(of the holes) is 2"..but photos lie.

Steve,..I wrote Tom....I'd like to know the body number...151 sticks
in my head...but that could be the Tudor. You have a reference?

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by duffer

I am going back out to Gilmore museum today ..i'll take a lot of pictures and under car too if they will let me get close and under the car.And i'll ask about history of the car too.

So Duffer...

What is the LENGTH of the engine number pad on *A1*?

Pluck

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

I'm with you...but I know...photos lie?
The other thing from this photo...NOW...the pad IS TOO long.
The bolt hole spreed on the ID(of the holes) is 2"..but photos lie.

Steve,..I wrote Tom....I'd like to know the body number...151 sticks
in my head...but that could be the Tudor. You have a reference?

Dudley,

No...I do not know the answer to that one.

Pluck

[Marius Titulescu]

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Originally Posted by duffer

I am going back out to Gilmore museum today ..i'll take a lot of pictures and under car too if they will let me get close and under the car.And i'll ask about history of the car too.

I'd love to visit that museum someday.
I always liked that they allow visitors to take a lot of photos.
_____________________
Marius from Artys Transit

[jetrod]

one more bit of info about the #1 phaeton. When I was a youth, in the 50"s, the #1 engine sat is the Henry Ford Museum, on an engine stand, along with the picture of Henry stamping the engine. The phaeton body was displayed elsewhere in the museum. Later,about 1882, as a then member of the Motor Cities Chapter, I with 4 or 5 other members, volunteered to replace the #1 engine into the #1 phaeton, as requested by the museum. This was done on a Sat AM. I do not remember the motor # of the engine that was in the #1 phaeton when we made the swap. The Motor Cities Chapter was at the time meeting in the museum property and the club and the museum had a relationship, thus the request.

[Gene F]

Does anyone know what the color of that car is?

[lrf]

Relating to Will Rogers and Henry Ford for president, I had an original 33rpm record of Will Rogers nominating (and joking) about H. Ford. Our club tour was to the Will Rogers Ranch Home and State Park here in Hollywood/Los Angeles. I donated the record to the estate and got to meet W. Rogers granddaughter who, unknown to me, was there for a business meeting. She said they didn't have this record. She now lives in Bakersfield and the Will Rogers Museum is in his home state of Oklahoma.

[mercman from oz]

Here is a larger picture of the Model A that duffer originally posted.

[ModelA29]

Seems like Henry put the engine with *A1* on the shelf (or stamped a fresh one) until manufacturing caught up with demand and he had a spare car to give Edison. I suspect the engine stamped with just the 1 was retained for their archives.

Good YouTube video in this subject
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OXrVLF5Y9o

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Does anyone know what the color of that car is?

Dawn Gray DK and Gunmetal Blue...

(We have painted two different cars in the authentic contrasting schemes.)


.

[ModelA29]

Here is a study on the serial number pads - http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/studie...ND%20CODES.pdf


The pad with the *A1* stamping on the engine does not seem to be correct for the time period. The one in the attached image is *A354* The change to the rectangular pad took place between engine 616 and 633 per the study.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Dawn Gray DK and Gunmetal Blue...

(We have painted two different cars in the authentic contrasting schemes.)


.

So it is Dawn Gray Dark, or was this color renamed in later years?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Gene F

So it is Dawn Gray Dark, or was this color renamed in later years?

Can't speak for renaming it in later years, ...but that is Dawn Gray DK (-or Dark). The paint colors were available in either configuration in 1928.

[Gene F]

I have a 28, and I think it is that color. To tell ya the truth, I thought it was called GunMetal... But in later years there was a GunMetal Blue paint color offered. At least I think that is the way I remember it.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by jetrod

When I was a youth, in the 50"s, the #1 engine sat is the Henry Ford Museum, on an engine stand, along with the picture of Henry stamping the engine. The phaeton body was displayed elsewhere in the museum. Later,about 1882, as a then member of the Motor Cities Chapter, I with 4 or 5 other members, volunteered to replace the #1 engine into the #1 phaeton, as requested by the museum.

I searched the Ford Museum site and could only locate the photo of him stamping the engine not the engine itself.

I suspect there are 2 engines with the # 1 on them: The first approved engine that Henry stamped with just the 1 digit and the *A1* stamped engine that went into the Phaeton Henry gave to Edison.

The Phaeton provenance is solid. It was gifted back to Ford by Edison's widow in 1943. It would be interesting to see that paperwork and any photos of the car at the time.
Here is the video at the point they talk about the car coming back from Edison: https://youtu.be/1OXrVLF5Y9o?t=416

I suspect the B&W photo is the Edison car in 1928 due to the paint scheme. It's at Ford's Engineering lab which makes sense for it to get a final test and inspection before delivery. The second photo is taken outside Edison's Fort Meyers Laboratory while the car was at Greenfield Village in Dearborn. Both are from Ford's archives. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3046...656?authuser=0

[jetrod]

one more bit of info about the #1 phaeton. When I was a youth, in the 50"s, the #1 engine sat is the Henry Ford Museum, on an engine stand, along with the picture of Henry stamping the engine. The phaeton body was displayed elsewhere in the museum. Later,about 1982, as a then member of the Motor Cities Chapter, I with 4 or 5 other members, volunteered to replace the #1 engine into the #1 phaeton, as requested by the museum. This was done on a Sat AM. I do not remember the motor # of the engine that was in the #1 phaeton when we made the swap. The Motor Cities Chapter was at the time meeting in the museum property and the club and the museum had a relationship, thus the request. Jerry

[ModelA29]

An oddity - The pictures of 189 show the early type serial number pad (said to have been used on first 600 or so blocks).
I blew the photo up of Henry stamping 1 on a block in Oct 1927 and it's the later style pad that was up by the head. There are also photos of Henry, and others standing behind a model A engine - I suspect it it the 1st engine but the pictures only note taken in 1927 - the engine in those photos has the later pad. If you compare where Henry is stamping the 1 and where it is on the A1 engine in an earlier post I think you'll agree there are 2 engines with a 1 stamped on them.

I'm certain that there would have been multiple molds in use at the same time with changes ongoing. The Edison A has the later pad and the museum records reflect it was gifted to the Ford Museum by Edison's widow and the engine number was A1.

[frank55a]

The first picture is the Edison phaeton and #1 engine that I took in 1978 while at the MARC Meet. The later pictures of the phaeton were taken a few years ago at the Gilmore.

The picture of Tudor with the phaeton in the back is a 1927 it is black and Gunmetal Blue. It was owned by Archie Jackson and I may be wrong but I think it was one of MARC's first Henry winners.

While the colors may look different, it's all about the lighting. The first picture is all-natural lighting. The Tudor and Phaeton are the same body color.

The picture of the engine clearly shows the boss for the engine # which is the later boss. Also it looks like the water pump nut is the 30/31 Zinc nut and the steering column is later. Keep in mind the Phaeton was a diver not a show car. The value in this "A" is in its history not in how correct it is. Being a driver like most of our "As" when it needed servicing I am sure parts were changed when it was taken into the dealer which may also include the engine. Which may explain the different engine boss. If the engine needed repair/rebuild I am sure it would be cheaper and faster then to swap the engine and restamp it.

[ModelA29]

Did you take a closeup of the engine on the stand? I suspect it just has the digit 1 on it not A1. The Henry Ford repainted the Edison car at some point.
I haven't found online where/if they have Model A engine 1. They do have some T engines and the first V8 flathead.

[al's28/33]

Those skinny tires don't look right. I know they are the correct 21" but just don't look right, too skinny.

[David in San Antonio]

Quote attributed to Will Rogers (I have no documentation):
“If the opposite of PRO is CON,
then the opposite of PROgress is… CONgress.”