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Old 12-03-2017, 12:26 PM   #1
early28
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Default 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Has anyone used the Chockostang Classic Mustang/Fairlane disc brake conversion on a 1964 Fairlane 500? This conversion was listed to include the 1964 Fairlane. I can't get a good brake pedal. I've replaced the new combination and master cylinder with other new matching components. There was no change in the peddle. Any suggestions?

Also has anyone tried a Borgeson Power Steering Conversion kit on a 1964 Fairlane.
Need information on fit and installation. Email, Thanks and God Bless
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Are you using silicone brake fluid? It's hard to get a good pedal with that stuff! DOT 3 is much better.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

For steering questions, call Borgeson and ask for a tech to answer questions.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Just a thought but how mush free play travel do you have in the pedal?
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:40 PM   #5
Dobie Gillis
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Master cylinder push rod may be too short.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

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Thanks to all who have replied. I'll try to answer all questions in this one reply. I'm using DOT-3 brake fluid. The Master cylinder push rod is about 1/16-1/8 short, which I would consider normal. I don't believe you would want one tight; Or would you? There is 3 inches free travel in the pedal. The pedal is 6 1/2 inches from the floor in full height. This is a none power unit. I'm I expecting to much? The master cylinder has a 15/16" bore. Rear wheel cylinders are 29/32. The front calipers are 65-66 4 piston Mustang #4401. I don't know the piston size. The car stops and will lock all four wheel in a panic stop situation. I did email Borgeson and all I got was a bunch of smart @!#@ remarks. Thanks to all and God Bless
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Have you tried bench bleeding the master? Are there any vertical loops in the brake lines where air could be trapped? Have the shoes been arced to the drums? If the center of the shoe hits the drum well before the ends of the shoe, the pedal will feel soft or springy as the shoe is forced to the drum by the wheel cylinder. If the shoe 'rocks' in the drum. stand it on edge , lining side up, and smack it with a soft faced hammer until it fits the drum with 1/16" or so gap at the end. This works!
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

It’s a long shot, but I’ve done a couple front disc conversions with similar results. Turned out in 2 cases the rear drums were a little out of adjustment. Not noticeable with the front drums, but a soft pedal with the disc. A poor fit in the rear might give the same feeling as 40 suggests above.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:59 PM   #9
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Question Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by early28 View Post

Has anyone used the Chockostang Classic Mustang/Fairlane disc brake conversion on a 1964 Fairlane 500? This conversion was listed to include the 1964 Fairlane.

I can't get a good brake pedal. I've replaced the new combination and master cylinder with other new matching components. There was no change in the peddle.

Any suggestions?
Is this a manual or power assist kit? You are saying you replaced the Kit MC with another style?



I do not see any valving in the kit.

Push-rod adjustment is critical.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Thanks all. The rear drums have been turned and the shoes have a pretty even wear pattern on them. The rear brakes have self adjusters on them and brakes are really a little tighter than I would normally adjust them manually. As for the master cylinder push rod, I'll machine an 1/8" spacer tomorrow and try that. I will check the rear shoe fit to drum and not rely on the wear pattern. I'll also be sure the adjustment is correct. The conversion kit I used was for manual brakes. The master cylinder is a "Manual duel bowl disc, MC36440 which fits a 1978 Mustang ll. The proportional valve that comes with the kit is located in the center of the photo that KULTULZ posted. It's an adjustable proportional valve only. A photo of the valve I used was sent to Chockostang and the rep. said the combination valve I used would work well in the system. Photo attached. Also there are no loops in the lines and we have bled 2 1/4 qts. of fluid through the system trying to find air, leaks or something. All I've found so far is a head ache. Thanks to all and God Bless

CombinationValvePorts.jpg
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

If you can all four wheels to lock up, then the calipers and wheel cylinders are doing there job. There are two things to look at. The first is the brake pedal ratio ( pivot point to push rod hole). The second could be the MC bore is too small for your application.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

An 1/8" freeplay is fine, don't add a spacer. The MC needs that freeplay.
Remember you are using 4 piston calipers and they may require more fluid than the Mustang II MC can deliver. If 67 Mustangs have 4 piston calipers, then use a MC for the 67. You need to match the system and pedal ratio.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

You didn't mention how you plumbed the master cylinder. The rear port on the master is for the front brakes. The port closest to the radiator is for the rear brakes. 1/8th" free play is too much, you only need 60 to 90 thousands. I would start with this.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:27 AM   #14
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

If the master you are using is for a manual system with 15/16th bore you may consider a power brake master cylinder if if has a slightly larger bore. 1" or 1 1/16th. That will move more fluid and give you a better pedal. Many disc brake change overs are figured on power brakes.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:10 AM   #15
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Post Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by early28 View Post

The rear drums have been turned and the shoes have a pretty even wear pattern on them. The rear brakes have self adjusters on them and brakes are really a little tighter than I would normally adjust them manually.


Rear shoe adjustment controls pedal height (considering pedal ratio and push-rod length is correct). On new shoe install, the shoes must be extended fully to seat the shoe position within the drum. Extend fully and back off enough to where the tire/wheel can be spun about 1/2 to 3/4 turn. Depress the pedal again and see if the turn effort is the same. You may need to adjust slightly tighter again. As the show wears into the drum arc, you may need another manual adjustment until the self-adjust feature begins to function properly.

Quote:
As for the master cylinder push rod, I'll machine an 1/8" spacer tomorrow and try that. I will check the rear shoe fit to drum and not rely on the wear pattern. I'll also be sure the adjustment is correct. The conversion kit I used was for manual brakes. The master cylinder is a "Manual duel bowl disc, MC36440 which fits a 1978 Mustang ll. The proportional valve that comes with the kit is located in the center of the photo that KULTULZ posted. It's an adjustable proportional valve only. A photo of the valve I used was sent to Chockostang and the rep. said the combination valve I used would work well in the system. Photo attached.
No. 1, an adjustable proportioning valve is for use on a competition car only. They are dangerous on a street car unless the valve has been set/calibrated on a skid pad or with gauges.

No. 2, the 2nd valve you show is not a combination valve but only a Pressure Differential Valve.It has no effect on brake operation other than a warning lamp and partially isolating either front or rear circuit if either system that has experienced a failure.



The MC you have is incorrect for the K-H System you have, The application requires the 1967 MUST manual DISC/DRUM MC as it will have the correct bore size, fluid capacity and correct residual valve for the rear drum brakes.

Your system needs a front metering valve and the correct proportioning valve.

The correct push-rod length may be tricky here as the brakes were not designed for your application although retrofit is common. The push-rod must just barely touch the MC piston at rest.

The MC was bench bled, correct? And the entire system bled after that?


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Old 12-04-2017, 09:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

I'm getting a lot of good information and I really appreciate it. I can assure everyone that it will be tried and evaluated. After 31 years as a mechanic and 70 years old I've never ran into a problem with converting brakes. After careful inspection and researching bore sizes, I'm looking at the master cylinder and push rod length to began with. I would have figured Chockostang would have matched everything in the their kit. I guess you never know. I really appreciate all the information I'm getting. I'll post any results I find. Thanks and God Bless
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Some additional info and "corrections"....
The stock master bore for your Fairlane is 1", which would give you a tighter pedal at the expense of slightly higher pedal efforts, and is probably why the higher pressure needed for the disc kit comes with the smaller 15/16" master, resulting in less pedal effort, but at the expense of more pedal travel. Keep in mind a dual master has to be able to fully stroke before the pedal runs out of travel for it to retain the safety feature of a dual master.

I would set the push rod clearance close to 1/16", with the pedal fully returned by it's own return spring. Any additional clearance will just result in more unnecessary pedal free travel.

The rear (primary) port plumbed to the fronts may be correct for your master but that's not a rule. If obvious, always plumb the larger fluid reservoir to the fronts, whether primary or secondary.

The rear Bendix drums should have +/- .030" total shoe-to-drum clearance, and this usually can be done by backing off the self adjusters 10 "teeth" from a locked wheel.

The pictured valve in post #10 sure looks like a typical factory distribution/pressure differential/proportioning combination valve,
but I would not use it or any fixed value combo valve on a custom non-stock system. You want to use the adjustable proportioning valve to ensure maximum rear braking without any early rear slide before the fronts. What could be dangerous is relying on a production brake valve designed for a particular vehicle's brake system and dynamics.

Bleeding is often the problem. The master has to be able to full stroke, whether pedal or pressure/bladder bleeding. Also, some aftermarket kits position the calipers with their bleeders lower than optimum for a good bleed, requiring the calipers to be re-positioned during bleeding.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:14 AM   #18
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Post Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Bob View Post

Some additional info and "corrections"....

The rear (primary) port plumbed to the fronts may be correct for your master but that's not a rule. If obvious, always plumb the larger fluid reservoir to the fronts, whether primary or secondary.

The pictured valve in post #10 sure looks like a typical factory distribution/pressure differential/proportioning combination valve,

but I would not use it or any fixed value combo valve on a custom non-stock system. You want to use the adjustable proportioning valve to ensure maximum rear braking without any early rear slide before the fronts.

What could be dangerous is relying on a production brake valve designed for a particular vehicle's brake system and dynamics.
Agree fully with last statement...

The valve shown is a stand alone PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE. It has no affect on balanced braking.

A COMBINATION VALVE has a Front Metering Valve - Pressure Differential Valve - Proportioning Valve - and possibly a Pressure Residual Valve in one assembly.

FORD did not go to a COMBINATION VALVE until the early seventies.

This system (K-H) had the different valving as stand alones, i.e. Metering Valve - Pressure Differential Valve - Proportioning Valve. The 1967 Dual Reservoir MC (power or manual) is unique to this design and has proper sizing/fluid capacity.

You begin to experiment with MC piston size/ travel only on a more complicated change-over and you need gauges for that.

Proper push-rod adjustment will be found in the 1967 SERVICE MANUAL.

The use of an adjustable proportioning valve will get someone in trouble very quickly. No further need to explain that one.

All of this original valving (K-H) is still available but costly. Most of these brake-swap vendors should not be in business as they are giving false information to make the kits affordable. The kit does not contain proper valving or refer the purchaser as to the need for proper valving.

This system was unique in it's day and the performance was great. It is the proper retrofit (IMO) for any early FORD of the period.

FORD dropped it due to cost.

This is for the info of the OP only. I do not participate in food fights...
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

I really appreciate the replies to my dilemma. Everything that has been suggested has been reviewed and gone over on the car. The combination valve in question does not have a metering valve on the front brake side as I was told. It is a pressure differential valve. These were used on other car also and were made by Weatherhead and had an 11/16" nut on the front or by Kelsey-Hayes which had a 3/4" nut. This is the conclusion I have come to: The free play in the MC push rod is to much and should be set to between .030 - .0625 inches. The big thing I have to figure out is the pressure differential valve. The photo I posted shows the front portion of the valve as being all connected (which they are) but, not like the photo shows. I was told that all three connections were interchangeable. As turned out they are not. Photo 1 of this valve shows the top connection as the inlet from the MC. Another photo (2) shows the front connection being from the master cylinder. I took the interchangeable connections as gospel and made the front connection as the inlet. The way I'm looking at this is that going this direction the fluid will have to be overly (for lack of a better word) forced through the valve the wrong way. Now whether these changes will cure my problem or not will be determined this week end. The sad thing is California Pony Cars call the valve a Disc & Drum Proportioning Valve. Muscle Car Research LLC call it a 1970 - 1976 Mopar Combination Valve. Go figure!! Does anyone have the part number for the The 1967 Dual Reservoir MC (power or manual)? Thanks to all. I really appreciate it. God Bless
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File Type: jpg valve2.jpg (29.1 KB, 18 views)
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: 1964 Fairlane disc brakes

The correct name for your valve is a combination valve, combining fluid distribution, pressure differential and rear proportioning. The picture #1 is correct, while picture #2 is correct except for the (front) top and end port text, which should be swapped. The master cylinder inlets always enter the top of the valve, adjacent to the pressure differential switch. Fluid to the rears passes through the prop valve, while front fluid exits the two ports. If metering was included, all front fluid would exit through one port, and be split farther down stream.
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