Awwe Crap!

[Capt Kirk]

So, I drove my car to work today. All was fine till the drive home. I got a half block from home...had to stop for traffic before turning onto my road. I gradually let out the clutch to go, car moved about 6 inches, before I had the clutch all the way out, and something just basically released and the car wouldn't move in any gear. I pushed the car home and in the driveway, I tried reverse again and the car moved an inch and that was it. I haven't looked into this yet...wanted to check with you guys first. I hear a noise coming from the back of the car...can't tell if it's from the center section or out by the hubs. The car has juice brakes and I don't know if the backing plates were the only change or if the whole diff was changed. It's a closed drive line. Can the hub keys shear? Where should I look first? Thanks.

[Chris]

I would start by pulling hubs and inspect axle shafts...but usually when they break the wheels will pull out. My guess is a broken drive shaft

[Mart]

Ok - this happened to a friend of mine recently. the axle key had sheared. Take the hub caps off and get someone to look at the hubs as you try to (carefully) drive away. The axle on the side that has sheared will be turning.

Well it will if it is the axle key. If not it will be something else. May be a relatively easy fix. In my friends case the axle had twisted quite dramatically. We managed to get him moving again by cutting down a key and putting it in the first inch of shaft where the keyway was still straight. The jury rigged fix is still holding up while he sources another axle.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mart

Ok - this happened to a friend of mine recently. the axle key had sheared. Take the hub caps off and get someone to look at the hubs as you try to (carefully) drive away. the axle on the side that has sheared will be turning.

Well it will if it is the axle key. If not it will be something else. May be a relatively easy fix.

This is what I'm really hoping for. I'll take a look a bit later...I'm putting new thermostats in the clothes dryer...gotta keep mama happy first!

[VeryTangled]

Cap'n, Good vibes going out to the Ford-iverse!

[okiedokie]

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I replaced many axle keys in the 40 I drove to high school. Of course the whole car was worn out.

[Capt Kirk]

I just can't imagine it being a driveline...this was about as soft of a start from a dead stop as possible. No bang, clunk or grinding...essentially it stopped like I had pushed the clutch back in. There is a slight noise that I hear now and I can tell things are turning. If it was a broken driveline, the car wouldn't have moved slightly backward when I tried revers in the driveway would it? Dryer is back together but the wife is at the neighbors so my sheared key test will need to wait till she gets back. In the mean time, are these keys hardened and need to be specially ordered or is hardware stock going to work? If these keys sheared during my dad's tenure with the car I would bet he stuck whatever would work in there...and I used those same keys during restoration.

[Capt Kirk]

I also have to confess an error in my ways during restoration that I discovered by reading a recent thread about problems with tightening an axle nut. I am certain that when I bolted those rear hubs back on, I tightened them as tight as I could get them with the breaker bar I have. I have since learned that something in the neighborhood of 200 ft-lbs is required. I can guarantee that they weren't that tight. If a key sheared, this would likely be a contributing factor. I'm learning and sometimes a lesson costs money.

[35cab]

I had this happen on a 40 tudor some 15 years ago. Very gentle start from traffic lights then a slight "ping" and no drive.
Towed it home a couple of miles, then jacked up rear, pulled the drum/hub and the end of the half shaft came with it it! A very old grubby fracture and a tiny bit of clean metal, obviously an old fault. I hope this is not the situation in your case and it is only a sheared axle key.
Interestingly I was going through a few half shafts looking for a good one and in one I found the remains of a sheared key wedged into the slot, no distortion on the slot but the key must have been seized in and sheared along its length.
Good luck.

[deuce_roadster]

As has been stated before--The key isn't there to drive the hub. If the key sheared, the hub wasn't tight enough. The friction between the taper on the axle and the taper inside of the hub is what is supposed to move the car.
IF it was loose enough to shear the key you really need to make sure there is no crack beginning at the inner end of the keyway.
I never take the nut right up to max torque first . I tighten it up really tight, drive around the block and tighten again--do this maybe 3 times then use your cheater bar or torque wrench and move the nut to the next slot where it lines up with the hole and insert the cotter key. ( use a felt pen and draw a line on the end of the axle so you know where the cotter pin hole is.)

[Capt Kirk]

Well, I have my answer...ugggg. Started the car and put it in gear with the wife watching the axle nuts...neither were turning. In neutral, there was a slow and steady clink, clink clink. I wedged my butt under the car and put my ear to the axle housings and it was clear that's where the noise was coming from. Put my ear to the pumpkin and could hear the noise but wasn't as pronounced. I grabbed the top of the right tire and gave it a jerk and all seemed well, did the same to the left and it rocked back and forth significantly...checked the hub while I was doing that and it wasn't the hub that was moving. Guess that means a broken drivers side axle?? If so, stand by for a lot of questions on finding an axle and how to repair it.

[JM 35 Sedan]

If the axle is actually broken, and from your last post it sounds like it is, you are actually very fortunate that the failure occured while starting from a dead stop. Another scenario with the car in motion could have been much worse.
It will be a good learning experience for you to make the repair yourself, and we can help you along the way.

[Capt Kirk]

JM, I've never been into one of these diff's but I'm definitely not shy in exploring uncharted terrorties. I would really really like this to be a project I can do without dropping the whole axle and torque tube. I have a great shop in Fairbanks but here, I'm basically a driveway mechanic. The garage here is full of my tools. What kind of information or photos do I need to provide in order to know what axle I need? I don't know if the axle has been changed over all this time There's a 9-34 on the bottom rib which is a 3.78 ratio if that helps.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

I would really really like this to be a project I can do without dropping the whole axle and torque tube.

Well that's not going to be happening!!!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

JM, I've never been into one of these diff's but I'm definitely not shy in exploring uncharted terrorties. I would really really like this to be a project I can do without dropping the whole axle and torque tube. I have a great shop in Fairbanks but here, I'm basically a driveway mechanic. The garage here is full of my tools. What kind of information or photos do I need to provide in order to know what axle I need? I don't know if the axle has been changed over all this time There's a 9-34 on the bottom rib which is a 3.78 ratio if that helps.

You could probably do this repair while not removing the complete rear, by just removing the left side axle housing, and then remove the axles, differential carrier, and ring gear as an assembly. BUT, this could windup being a bit more complicated, and taking more time when removing everything that needs to come apart while working on your back in a confined area. Another reason to remove the complete rear might be to do a complete check of all components, and replacing anything that may need replacing, including new seals and gaskets. Also, if you were not completely happy with the gear ratio that's in this car now, this would be an opportunity to make that change. I sometimes seem to be a gluten for punishment when I tackle these kinds of repairs on my cars, so you would need to make the call on how you want to proceed with this project.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Well that's not going to be happening!!!

FREE...35 Ford Cabriolet. Broken axle...heading to the crusher if no takers.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

FREE...35 Ford Cabriolet. Broken axle...heading to the crusher if no takers.

Put me down as a low bidder , since I'm now old Ford car poor, with no space left to fit even one more car part, let alone a complete car .

oh wait....you said FREE, I'll be there tomorrow morning.

[Capt Kirk]

JM, is there a better option than 3.78 gear ratio for these rear ends? I've had the rear end out of this car so I'm not a stranger to it. I work full time and I've discovered here in MI it's either 90+ and 1000% humidity or 30 below and I don't have an inside environment like I used to. If this is a weekend job then I can swing it...I don't want to be caught by the weather with my car outside if this is a protracted process. I store it in my trailer. If this is more than a quick weekend job, I'd rather put the car to bed for the season, get what I need over the winter and hit it hard in spring when temps are more conducive to human life. This is the last thing I expected!!!

[34pickup]

You could find another complete rear end and swap it in while you rebuild the one thats in it now.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by 34pickup

You could find another complete rear end and swap it in while you rebuild the one thats in it now.

Now that's an idea to concider, but the catch might be that it may need to be torn down to confirm its goodness.

[Capt Kirk]

I'm not in a hurry to rebuild this. When I left for work this morning I anticipated that it would be my last drive for the season and I got a half block away from home when it broke down. My hardship will be getting it in the trailer for winter storage now. I've got nothing but time. If this was a weekend job, I'd take it on but I don't think it is. I plan on gathering the parts I need and educating myself for what lies ahead this spring. No room for a spare rear end here...in Fairbanks, different story. My first experience digging into a rear end...I'm looking forward to it!!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

JM, is there a better option than 3.78 gear ratio for these rear ends? I've had the rear end out of this car so I'm not a stranger to it. I work full time and I've discovered here in MI it's either 90+ and 1000% humidity or 30 below and I don't have an inside environment like I used to. If this is a weekend job then I can swing it...I don't want to be caught by the weather with my car outside if this is a protracted process. I store it in my trailer. If this is more than a quick weekend job, I'd rather put the car to bed for the season, get what I need over the winter and hit it hard in spring when temps are more conducive to human life. This is the last thing I expected!!!

That may depend on who you talk to. In my case, the rear in my fordor sedan, that had 3.78 gears, failed last November. When I tore this rear apart this spring, it was a complete disaster internally. I liked the 3.78 gears, but did not have a spare set with 10 spline pinion. I did have a set of 3.54, 10 spline gears, so decided to use those even though many assured me I would not like that ratio in hilly country. Long story short, it took me nearly a month to take the rear completely out, take it apart, gather all the parts I needed, and get my car back together and ready for a ~ 1350 mile one way/2800 round trip, to Talsa, Oklahoma in June. I took the high roads going out, over the hills and mountains of MD, WVA, and PA, and never had a problem going over those hills and mountains, and never had to downshift going up these inclines. As open road gears, I really like these 3.54's

If you take that rear all the way out, completely dismantling it, carefully inspecting each component, possibly finding issues with other things besides a broken axle, that you will need to find and replace, then carefully and accurately setting bearing preloads, gear backlash by shifting shims (gaskets) from side to side, then doing a final inspection of actual gear mesh, and finally torquing everything to specifications and reassemble this into your car, it will NOT be a weekend job, at least for me it wouldn't. The only gotcha that I can see with putting it to bed and gathering all the parts you need to do this in the spring is....you really won't know exactly what you need until you take the rear apart.
It's a tough call on what to expect next when playing with these early Ford V-8's, but honestly, for me, its all part of the fun.

[Newc]

Hi all; remember Vern Tardel has a great new book on rear diff's. Newc

[1oldtimer]

Take a look at these, I'm in the process of putting together a modified banjo for my '28.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...st-one.981464/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...o-axle.812569/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...ebuild.462776/

[ford38v8]

The job can certainly be a weekend job for one who has had prior experience doing it. I had built my diff from scratch, but unknowingly installed an axle set with cracks. When an axle let go 1000 miles from home, I got lucky in being able to use a fellow Fordist's garage and beer refrigerator, as well as access to his bone yard! 36 hours later, I was on the road again.

No, you do not have to remove the torque tube, but will have to remove the spring and shocks. As mentioned before, you may want to make a career out of the job, but just for axles, piece of cake.

[flatheadfan]

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I just went through pulling apart a rear axle on a '36 without removing the entire rear axle assembly from under the car. Generally speaking everything went rather smooth . If you do need a rear axle shaft the part number for a '35 -'38 (48-4235), 32.85" - 18 teeth. A real challenge was trying to find a good axle shaft. Not many of them out there. I do have some pictures of what I did. If interested send me your email via PM and I will dig out what I have and send them to you.

Tom

[Kerk]

I had a similar thing happen to me and it was the driveshaft broke at the end of the tube driveshaft where the spline piece was welded to the tube. Trailered it home and that is what I found after about 12000 to 13000 miles of trouble free miles. Just my story. kerk

[Capt Kirk]

After sleeping on this, I decided that I'll take on the project if I can find an axle before I get started. I don't want the car apart, sitting in front of the garage, all winter because I can't find the parts to fix it. As I mentioned, I'm not sure if this is the original diff to the car or if my dad swapped it out when he converted it over to juice brakes. What do I need to look for to determine what diff I have and what axle I need?

[Mart]

Have a look where the spring attaches to the axle. If the attachment points on the axle are part of the axle casing, it is a 37-40 axle. If the attachment points are on an extension of the radius arms and are bolted to the axle then that is 35/36.

In theory any complete rear end assembly 35-40 ought to bolt in. Obviously if it is exacly the same it may be simpler with regards to running the brake lines etc.

I meant to reply earlier to say that if you jack up the rear and pull each wheel, one of them ought to pull right out. This will confirm the broken axle diagnosis. If one does not pull right out, it may be because it is catching on the brakes or safety hubs or retainers have been fitted in the past.
One other thing, is the speedo working when the car is supposed to be, but not driving? If it is it means the problem is rearward of the gearbox, if it isn't, the fault is in the gearbox or clutch.

No harm in doing a little testing to try and isolate the problem.

If it were me and the tests show it is an axle, I would first get an axle and then only partially dismantle the left side of the casing. This would allow the diff unit and the axle shafts as an assembly to be withdrawn. they can be fitted up with new shafts and reassembled. With luck, if the gaskets do not get torn it can be bolted back together and back up and running in a relatively short time.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

Thanks Mart, I will run home and take some pictures of what I have...I don't believe the attachment points are bolted on but will check. I'm certain it's a broken axle. In neutral with the engine running, there's a slow and steady clink, clink, clink coming from the rear end and when I put my ear on the axle tube, it's clear the noise is coming from within. I can also grab the left rear tire and rock it back and forth with quite a bit of movement...it never did that before.
I mentioned that this will be a driveway project but failed to mention that once the axle is out of the car, I can set up a table in the garage and work on it inside...I just can't fit the whole car in there...sigh!

[JSeery]

I've already suggested this is not the way I would go about it, I would remove the whole axle assembly and go through it. However, if you want to go the one axle replacement only approach be sure you understand how the gaskets determine the backlash and bearing load. If the existing gaskets do not come off intact, then you need to be sure of the thickness of them. Any new gaskets must remain identical to the existing ones.

Some of this may help (if you can read it!). Found a slightly clearer copy of one of the pages.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Capt, if your axle housings look like these, with the angled flange welded in place like these for rear wishbone attachment, then you would have a '35-'36 rear.

[JSeery]

JM, also aren't these in the years where you have to consider the spider gears teeth counts? I know there are different spider gears (teeth count wise) but are the axle teeth counts different as well?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by JSeery

JM, also aren't these in the years where you have to consider the spider gears teeth counts? I know there are different spider gears (teeth count wise) but are the axle teeth counts different as well?

Yes there are different tooth count on axles used in the '35 to '40 rears. The earlier rears in this range have 18 teeth on their axles, while the later versions have 16 teeth. They can be interchanged, but only when using the same tooth count axles, and the appropriate spider gears as an assembly.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Thanks Mart, I will run home and take some pictures of what I have...I don't believe the attachment points are bolted on but will check. I'm certain it's a broken axle. In neutral with the engine running, there's a slow and steady clink, clink, clink coming from the rear end and when I put my ear on the axle tube, it's clear the noise is coming from within. I can also grab the left rear tire and rock it back and forth with quite a bit of movement...it never did that before.
I mentioned that this will be a driveway project but failed to mention that once the axle is out of the car, I can set up a table in the garage and work on it inside...I just can't fit the whole car in there...sigh!

In neutral with engine running you hear a clink clink clink?? This would not necessarily mean a broken axle to me because the rear gears should not be turning when trans is in neutral. What does the speedometer head do when engine is running, transmission is in gear, and clutch pedal is all the way out, and what type of noise do you hear at the rear then? Keep in mind that noises can travel on the drive train. What noises you think are coming from the rear could actually be coming from the front area of the torque tube (i.e. U joint area), or the transmission, and vice versa.

[JSeery]

Thanks JM, I'm a QC guy, so things are a little different. But I remember the spider gear issue. I built my QC with 9 inch axles and the V8 center section so it uses the original Ford V8 spider gears. Had to sort out the spider gear tooth count.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

In neutral with engine running you hear a clink clink clink?? What does the speedometer head do when engine is running, transmission is in gear, and clutch pedal is all the way out, and what type of noise do you hear at the rear then?

Good catch, why would there be any sounds coming from the rear axle with the transmission in neutral?

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

In neutral with engine running you hear a clink clink clink?? This would not necessarily mean a broken axle to me because the rear gears should not be turning when trans is in neutral. What does the speedometer head do when engine is running, transmission is in gear, and clutch pedal is all the way out, and what type of noise do you hear at the rear then? Keep in mind that noises can travel on the drive train. What noises you think are coming from the rear could actually be coming from the front area of the torque tube (i.e. U joint area), or the transmission, and vice versa.

With the trans in neutral (and in gear), there is a ticking noise coming from the rear end. I thought it could be that the axle didn't break in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the axle and as the rotating half of the axle came in contact with the stationary half of the axle, it makes a click. Won't a transmission have a "float" rotation in neutral if there's nothing to prevent it from rotating? The clicking sound is similar in neutral and in gear but I didn't want to crawl under a running car with it in gear so I could put my ear to the axle.

[Capt Kirk]

First batch of pics

[Capt Kirk]

Last batch of pics. I measured from the face of the backing plate to the banjo flange and if memory serves, it was 24 5/8"

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

I didn't want to crawl under a running car with it in gear so I could put my ear to the axle.

You are obviously a WISE man! But..........you could use a long stick (stethoscope) to your ear. DD

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Capt, if your axle housings look like these, with the angled flange welded in place like these for rear wishbone attachment, then you would have a '35-'36 rear.

Must be a later axle...mine doesn't look like yours.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I've already suggested this is not the way I would go about it, I would remove the whole axle assembly and go through it. However, if you want to go the one axle replacement only approach be sure you understand how the gaskets determine the backlash and bearing load. If the existing gaskets do not come off intact, then you need to be sure of the thickness of them. Any new gaskets must remain identical to the existing ones.

Some of this may help (if you can read it!). Found a slightly clearer copy of one of the pages.

Now that I have seen how the axles are mounted in the 3rd member, I am planning on removing the whole diff and torque tube so I can drag that in the garage and do it right. I'm hoping to not have to pull the pinion. I have done some reading today on using various thickness of gaskets for backlash and bearing preload. I don't have a dial indicator or mag base or any other specialized tools that may be necessary for this job. I was hoping that I could get away with replacing the gaskets with equal thickness new gaskets. I guess the final decision on how far I go into this will be made when I get it apart and see what I see.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Capt, if your axle housings look like these, with the angled flange welded in place like these for rear wishbone attachment, then you would have a '35-'36 rear.

These are the '35-'36 rear radius rods with integral spring mounts, and which would bolt-on to the tabs welded onto the axle bells at an angle, as in JM35's pictures. Otherwise, as someone pointed-out earlier, you probably have a '37-'40 rear assembly, which will bolt right in/swap as a complete assembly, torque tube and all. DD

[Mart]

It's a classic 37-40 axle it has 39-40 brakes so was probably chosen as a direct bolt in replacement. If it has wide 5 hubs it could be a 39 axle with it's original hubs. One thing is for sure, it makes for a very neat conversion to hydraulics when it comes to running the pipes etc.

I'm lazy. There was nothing bothering you about the axle before something went pop. I'd just concentrate on replacing the component that broke and putting everything else back together exactly as it was removed. Chances are the bearings are better quality than a new replacement. There is no good reason to remove the pinion, why risk damaging the housing (which can happen if not done correctly) just for the sake of removing it because you feel you should.

Edit: ha ha just saw the wires. 40-48 hubs, which hopefully should have a support ring to support the inside diameter of the wheel face.

Mart.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Like Mart says, it is a '37-'40 from your pics.......right-side up this time. DD

[Mart]

It looks like a nice neat installation in a pretty nice car.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mart

It's a classic 37-40 axle it has 39-40 brakes so was probably chosen as a direct bolt in replacement. If it has wide 5 hubs it could be a 39 axle with it's original hubs. One thing is for sure, it makes for a very neat conversion to hydraulics when it comes to running the pipes etc.

I'm lazy. There was nothing bothering you about the axle before something went pop. I'd just concentrate on replacing the component that broke and putting everything else back together exactly as it was removed. Chances are the bearings are better quality than a new replacement. There is no good reason to remove the pinion, why risk damaging the housing (which can happen if not done correctly) just for the sake of removing it because you feel you should.

Edit: ha ha just saw the wires. 40-48 hubs, which hopefully should have a support ring to support the inside diameter of the wheel face.

Mart.

There was absolutely no problems with the rear end before yesterday. Did the Dream Cruise several weeks ago and that's nothing but stop and go. Had the car up to highway speed last weekend...no noises whatsoever from the rear. Never any clunking...etc. Yesterday took me completely by surprise.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mart

It looks like a nice neat installation in a pretty nice car.

Thanks...I guess I won't send it to the crusher after all...

[Capt Kirk]

I see on the Van Pelt site that a 35-38 axle has 18 teeth and a 39-41 has 16 teeth. Guess that means I need to take it apart to find out what tooth count I have.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

I see on the Van Pelt site that a 35-38 axle has 18 teeth and a 39-41 has 16 teeth. Guess that means I need to take it apart to find out what tooth count I have.

That is correct. The sets are interchangeable, but together with the spider gear. When I built mine the first time, I was not aware of this, and had used a 16 tooth set. When the axle broke, I had obtained an 18 tooth, thinking I must have had that the first time, but no, I had to replace both axles and spider. This all can be done while the banjo and torque tube remain on the car. You mentioned that you'd likely remove both? Leave the torque tube on, just remove the banjo from the torque tube.

I think you must have been mistaken about hearing the noise while in neutral. Nothing rotates past the transmission while in neutral unless the car is rolling.

[Capt Kirk]

38V8 I don't know how to quote just one sentence of a previous post but I think you'll know what part of your post I'm taking about.

I know that nothing is supposed to rotate behind the transmission when it's in neutral but I seem to remember in my past working on a more modern vehicle that when I started it without a driveline on and in neutral, the yoke was turning due to the lube inside. I could reach up and grab the yoke and make it stop...thought something similar could be happening here. I have some jockeying around of vehicles to do when I get home in order to get the 35 where I want to work on it. I'll put a jack under it and give that axle a tug and see what happens. I'll loosen the brakes if I need to.

[ford38v8]

Yes, that is true, but nothing was connected to that yoke. In this case, the transmission output is connected all the way through to the wheels.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Yes, that is true, but nothing was connected to that yoke. In this case, the transmission output is connected all the way through to the wheels.

If an axle is broken isn't the driveline free to rotate?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

I see on the Van Pelt site that a 35-38 axle has 18 teeth and a 39-41 has 16 teeth. Guess that means I need to take it apart to find out what tooth count I have.

Yup, ya need to count teeth. One more distinct possibility to be aware of when you get it apart-enough to fondle an axle shaft. You need to also measure the length of your axle shaft to make sure it's a '37-'41. I say this only because it is POSSIBLE that someone has installed a '42-'48 rear end assembly with a '37-'41 drive shaft, torque tube and radius rods. As you noted, the '37-'41 axle shaft will measure 32.85", and could have either 18 OR 16 teeth. A '42-'48 rear end assembly is only slightly wider overall, and COULD be installed. '42-'48 axle shafts all measure 33.70" and have 16 teeth, which mate with 11-tooth spider gears. Just a "heads-up" so you know which axle to look for with certainty. DD

[Capt Kirk]

I'm home and have discovered the problem. Before I share that, I feel VERY lucky that this didn't turn out WAY worse...I think my dad was looking down on me! Yep, it's a broken left side axle. I jacked the car up, tugged on the wheel and it fell off in my hand. I pushed that car around a corner from where it broke...down the street 1/2 block and a 90 degree turn into my driveway.

[Bob C]

Did you disconnect the hand brake or was it already that way.

Bob

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Yup, ya need to count teeth. One more distinct possibility to be aware of when you get it apart-enough to fondle an axle shaft. You need to also measure the length of your axle shaft to make sure it's a '37-'41. I say this only because it is POSSIBLE that someone has installed a '42-'48 rear end assembly with a '37-'41 drive shaft, torque tube and radius rods. As you noted, the '37-'41 axle shaft will measure 32.85", and could have either 18 OR 16 teeth. A '42-'48 rear end assembly is only slightly wider overall, and COULD be installed. '42-'48 axle shafts all measure 33.70" and have 16 teeth, which mate with 11-tooth spider gears. Just a "heads-up" so you know which axle to look for with certainty. DD

In your experience, how hard of a time do you think I'll have in finding an axle? Are there some around or will this be like searching for a Unicorn?

Also, with the hub installed on a good axle, does the hub put a little tension on the axle to keep the gear end of the axle up snug against the spider carrier? I hope the answer is yes...if not, I may have more problems inside.

[JSeery]

There should be very little movement in & out of the axle. If there is movement something is wrong (other than the obvious brake at the end).

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Did you disconnect the hand brake or was it already that way.

Bob

It was that way...I left it like that when I restored the car. I have an original e-brake handle that was intended for mechanical brakes and I have no way to go from the original handle to the cable so I put a big spring at the point of the cable V just to hold it up. I didn't want that spring to apply brake pressure so I left them disconnected in the drums. Once I figure out how to go from the e brake lever to the cable, I'll hook them back up. At least I have all the cable parts where they belong until I can get the rest figured out.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

There should be very little movement in & out of the axle. If there is movement something is wrong (other than the obvious brake at the end).

That answered my question. The axle will move in and out the same amount whether or not the hub is on? I didn't check in and out movement but I started the car with that wheel off and it was making that noise again with the broken axle spinning. I suspect an issue with the spiders since it wasn't making that noise running down the road before the break. Guess we'll see when I get into this...ugggg.

[Mart]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Also, with the hub installed on a good axle, does the hub put a little tension on the axle to keep the gear end of the axle up snug against the spider carrier? I hope the answer is yes...if not, I may have more problems inside.

No. The hub does not contact the axle in a way that would limit end float. In my experience, you can have some end float and that is ok. The end float is determined in the clearances in the diff. My 40 had hardly any on one side and quite a lot on the other. I don't want to quote figures because I don't know what is acceptable. I'm just offering the opinion that some amount of end play is perfectly acceptable.

The axle turning may make a noise because it does not have an outer bearing to stop it rubbing on the seal/casing. There is a seal in the axle a couple of inches in, and the shaft will be resting on it.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mart

The axle turning may make a noise because it does not have an outer bearing to stop it rubbing on the seal/casing. There is a seal in the axle a couple of inches in, and the shaft will be resting on it.

Mart.

I hadn't thought of that...I'll keep my fingers crossed!

[JSeery]

Are we talking a few thousands here or a 1/2 inch? When you say moving in and out I'm assuming you are referring to a significant amont.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Are we talking a few thousands here or a 1/2 inch? When you say moving in and out I'm assuming you are referring to a significant amont.

Not sure if you were asking me or Mart. I just went and checked mine. Just by pushing and pulling with my hands...right side, I can't "feel" any movement but can hear that there is an imperceptible amount of movement. On the broken axle side, with some channel locks, I feel and hear no movement but it rotates nicely.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

In your experience, how hard of a time do you think I'll have in finding an axle? Are there some around or will this be like searching for a Unicorn?

I'd start by contacting the Early Ford Store in San Dimas at the link below......they have STUFF! If that doesn't work, there are several other sources available from 'Barn sources. DD

http://earlyfordstore.com/

[Capt Kirk]

Thanks Coop, I will contact them once I know what I need. Looks like I've got my weekend project lined up.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Thanks...I guess I won't send it to the crusher after all...

Cap, neither of my cars are that tidy underneath. You've got your fluids under control. There's that!

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Cap, neither of my cars are that tidy underneath. You've got your fluids under control. There's that!

Only drop it leaks is out of the radiator overflow. Was almost embarrassing with the original water pumps but in my instance, the coolant under the cap now is essentially full and it stays there since I got my skips pumps. No oil, trans or diff leals...I'm pounding on wood!!

[VeryTangled]

Now I really gotta get serious about some axle retainers. Looks like you're lucky to still have a fender and likely much worse! Yikes.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Mart

...The axle turning may make a noise because it does not have an outer bearing to stop it rubbing on the seal/casing. There is a seal in the axle a couple of inches in, and the shaft will be resting on it.

Mart.

Because the hub bearing is relieved of supporting the broken axle, I would think the outer seal has taken a beating from the diagnosis process of going through the gears with engine running. Whether that is the case or not, it's best to replace that seal, as not doing so may have your brake shoes floating in oil.

[Capt Kirk]

Is there a recommended book on rebuilding these rear ends? I'd like to get that ordered today.

[RalphM]

Someone earlier said Vern Tardel has a book. I have seen some in depth articles , with pictures!, over on the HAMB.

[deuce_roadster]

You now know what can happen with these axles. You will need to maganuflux and also dye penetrant test your replacement axle to insure it is not already cracked and I would HIGHLY recommend you take the one that didn't break and test it at the same time. I would not be the least bit surprised to see it has a crack starting in the same place the failed axle did. These cracks get started when the hub works back and forth on the key.

[Bob C]

Both the 1932-37 and 1938-40 Service Bulletins have sections are rebuilding
the rear axle.

Bob

[sidevalve8ba]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Is there a recommended book on rebuilding these rear ends? I'd like to get that ordered today.

Here's Vern Tardel's book on Amazon;


https://www.amazon.com/Ford-1932-48-...%3AVern+Tardel

[Capt Kirk]

I'll get Vern's book ordered when I get home tonight...thanks guys!

[JM 35 Sedan]

This should be a wakeup call to all of us who do not have some type of safety device/mechanism in place to retain the wheel/hub/drum/end of axle assembly to prevent these parts from coming off the car in the event of a broken axle.
I'm going to look into some type of retention system to incorporate on the banjo rears of my orginal '35's with mecanical brakes. If I had hydraulic brakes like Ford used from '39 - '48, I would just go with the U shaped brackets like Vern Tardell originally came up with and are now available from many other sources, that bolt on the backing plates by using the wheel cylinder bolts. If I can't come up with some type of U shaped bracket approch, I will go with the two piece design that gets one piece welded on the internal part of the hub..

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

This should be a wakeup call to all of us who do not have some type of safety device/mechanism in place to retain the wheel/hub/drum/end of axle assembly to prevent these parts from coming off the car in the event of a broken axle.
I'm going to look into some type of retention system to incorporate on the banjo rears of my orginal '35's with mecanical brakes. If I had hydraulic brakes like Ford used from '39 - '48, I would just go with the U shaped brackets like Vern Tardell originally came up with and are now available from many other sources, that bolt on the backing plates by using the wheel cylinder bolts. If I can't come up with some type of U shaped bracket approch, I will go with the two piece design that gets one piece welded on the internal part of the hub..

I read mention of a wheel retainer in a previous post and I understand the goal but am having difficulty envisioning how that can be accomplished.
I'm grateful that it broke when I was fully stopped...any other time could have been devastating...could have even resulted in a head on collision with the kind of traffic we have around here. I will be taking both axles to the machine shop for magnafluxing before they get installed.

[JSeery]

The retainers do just that, they retain the hub and drum so that it can not come off of the bearing. Such as in your case, you would not have been able to remove the drum until the retainer was removed. There are different types, but a simple one bolts behind the backing plate then extends up and over the backing plate and then curls over the drum. It doesn't touch it, but with a broken axle it prevents the hub from moving out more than a short distance

[Mart]

Problem is, if your wheel comes off like that, you hit he brakes and the cylinder just pops out, so no brakes. You grab the handbrake - that doesn't work either as the equaliser just goes to the one side. You shift down no good there either as no drive is being transmitted because of the open diff.

Just the back of the car scraping on the ground slows you down.

Never happened to me, thankfully.

I read that most of these problems stem from inadequately torqued nuts. I tend to believe it. I keep mine really tight and check them regularly. I might look at some sort of retainer, though, it does make sense.

Mart.

[JSeery]

With the retainer the brakes would still work, big advantage is this situation!

[sidevalve8ba]

I would have to agree that this is truly a wake up call for axle retainers. For those not familiar with them I found a picture.

[Capt Kirk]

I received a request for some close up pictures of each end of the break. I don't have the short end out of the drum yet so this will have to do for now. Kirk

[RalphM]

Looks like the keyway was the culprit. They can develop cracks in those areas that are hard to see. Either that or the drum got loose, but that would probably just sheer the key/slot.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Surely aint the first time this has occurred, and of course.........won't be the last! DD

[JSeery]

Best $30 in insurance you could possibility buy IMHO.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Best $30 in insurance you could possibility buy IMHO.

Can you post where they're available?

[JSeery]

Just about any supplier, I know Speedway, Honest Charley, etc.

C&G http://cgfordparts.com/wwwsectionfil...-Drum-Retainer $60

Speedway: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Early-...iner,1981.html $25

Honest Charley: http://www.honestcharley.com/catalog...=drum+retainer $30

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...drum+retainers

Vern Tardel: http://www.verntardel.com/products/brake-drum-retainer http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/000...uctions.pdf?35 $50

[sidevalve8ba]

Speedway Motors

[Capt Kirk]

I just placed that order from Speedway...$31.98 including shipping. Small price for piece of mind. They look a little on the light side...has anyone tested these in a real life situation?

[JSeery]

Check out the Vern Tardel second link, it shows a clear image of a pair. Vern believes they are heavy enough.

[ford38v8]

Drum retainers don't have to be beefy. The wheel is fully supported by the hub bearing, and only needs to be prevented from walking off the end of the housing, which isn't a sure thing that it would walk in every case anyway. My '38, for instance, was rope-towed about 3 miles, with 4 turns and a backwards push into a garage without knowing it had a broken axle.

EDIT: I had new sleeves on my housings. Worn bearing surface on original housings may walk like a duck for all I know!

[39portlander]

Have been following this post, I got a nice set of drum retainers from a Barner for my MT brakes. Hope I don't have a problem like this, I will be looking for a spare rear end this fall.

Capt'n K, may want to change this thread to "Auhh SNAP". Scott

[Capt Kirk]

I'm sure they're fine for a rolling stop good enough to get onto the side of the road. They may struggle with large lateral loading and the rotation of the drum. I bought them so that says something.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Here is another drum retainer, aka safety hub. This is probably what I will be doing on my 35 fordor with original mechanical brakes since the other type available attach using longer bolt that fasten on hydraulic brake wheel cylinders. These were once carried by Speedway, but now look to be discontinued. I did wind up getting a pair of these in a set of '40-'48 rear drums that were given to me by a friend and fellow EFV-8 Club/RG36 member (thank you Bill G.). If I can't find a new set like these, I will remove these for use on my 35 since these 40-48 drums are probably too heavily worn to be safely used.
On these the small ring is welded to the wheel bearing mounting/retaining part of the inner hub and that retains the larger ring that gets bolted to the backing plates and flanges on the small end of the axle housings.

[flatford8]

Originally Posted by sidevalve8ba

Here's Vern Tardel's book on Amazon;


https://www.amazon.com/Ford-1932-48-...%3AVern+Tardel

This is $19.95 on Amazon. $12.95 on Tardels site. Buy from the source...... Mark

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by flatford8

This is $19.95 on Amazon. $12.95 on Tardels site. Buy from the source...... Mark

Like Mark says, buy from the source.......Vern hisself! This is the link directly to Vern's site to purchase the book. DD

http://www.verntardel.com/collection...-guide-book-10

[Capt Kirk]

The book will be here on Tuesday. Had I known Vern had a site and was selling them, I would have been happy to purchase directly from him. Learning every day!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

The book will be here on Tuesday. Had I known Vern had a site and was selling them, I would have been happy to purchase directly from him. Learning every day!

As a matter of fact, Vern has a bunch of neat books, all of which can be seen at THIS link below. Besides being less-costly than buying thru Amazon, Vern gets to keep all the money to hisself instead of having to share with "struggling" Amazon. DD

http://www.verntardel.com/collections/books

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

As a matter of fact, Vern has a bunch of neat books, all of which can be seen at THIS link below. Besides being less-costly than buying thru Amazon, Vern gets to keep all the money to hisself instead of having to share with "struggling" Amazon. DD

http://www.verntardel.com/collections/books

Thanks Coop...will be ordering the Stromberg 97 book from Vern. I plan on pulling the diff starting first thing in the morning. Need to figure out the tooth count on that axle so I can get one found and purchased.

I plan on buying my gaskets and seals from Van Pelts. In looking at the exploded view of this diff, I see that there's grease seals that mount into the hub and there also appears to be axle shaft seals in the housing. In looking at the broken axle end of the housing, I don't see a seal and the exploded view doesn't help much with location. Where is this axle seal located?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Capt, have you been able to remove that tapered piece of the axle that's shown above in one of your pictures? I'm wondering how tight that is/was in the hub taper? Also if/when it's out, it might be an opertunity to take a better close up shot of the fracture surface. BTW, I can see what appears to be an interesting failure pattern on the break surface of the main part of the axle that's still inside the axle housing.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Capt, have you been able to remove that tapered piece of the axle that's shown above in one of your pictures? I'm wondering how tight that is/was in the hub taper? Also if/when it's out, it might be an opertunity to take a better close up shot of the fracture surface. BTW, I can see what appears to be an interesting failure pattern on the break surface of the main part of the axle that's still inside the axle housing.

JM, it is an interesting fracture on the long half. Somewhat spiraled. I have a hub puller and will use it when I get my hands dirty tomorrow. I'll be sure to post a better picture and let you know how tight the nut...and the taper was. Not sure how I'm going to get that nut off just yet but I'm guessing the video of me doing so would qualify me for the finals of Funniest Home Video.

[ford38v8]

:Cap, I got some good news for you: You don't need the wheel puller because you already got it off.


...But, you will need it to pull the other wheel off. Check the other axle for cracks at the same area. Any small crack visible makes it trash, no fancy tests required, just eyeball the thing.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

:Cap, I got some good news for you: You don't need the wheel puller because you already got it off.


...But, you will need it to pull the other wheel off. Check the other axle for cracks at the same area. Any small crack visible makes it trash, no fancy tests required, just eyeball the thing.

38v8...I have some dye penetrant that I used on those crack prone jeep heads when I was building those engines. Will that work on these axles? Would certainly be better than my eye ball.

And to think...I had a brief thought to sell my hub puller because the box has been collecting dust for over a decade...I don't sell tools though. The one who dies with the most tools wins!

[ford38v8]

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You won't need any dye penetrant, there's only one small area to examine, that being the inner terminus of the keyway slot. A crack will start at that location and that's the beginning of the end right thar. I've never seen them break at any other place, though I have had a later axle (49) break at the splines in the pumpkin. I would suppose that the cause is that the machining of the keyway or splines concentrates and directs stress to the slots.


"And to think...I had a brief thought to sell my hub puller because the box has been collecting dust for over a decade...I don't sell tools though. The one who dies with the most tools wins!"

If you drop that dusty box on your foot getting it down off the shelf, you'll wish you were dead.

[jhb]

That exact thing happened to me on my forty as I started a left turn from a light. It turned out to be a broken axle on the drivers side right next to the spline on the wheel side. After inspecting many people said it had to be cracked for a long time. I've never even tried to lay rubber with the car. After this happened to me I installed the clips to prevent the wheel from falling off if it ever happens again.
I found an axle from a '39 and tried to use it but the spline count was different so I had to use both '39 axles and a few more parts to compensate. More than a driveway job. Definitely a heated garage and plenty of room job.
I would also like to add I think the 3.78 is a great axle ratio for these cars. Since I do a lot of expressway driving I also added a Gear-Vendors O/D into the torque tube for that purpose. It brings my RPM's down to 2,600 @ 70mph.
Don't give up on it, just fix it !! Let us know the progress.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

The one who dies with the most tools wins!

The finest ones are the ones handed down or given or third-hand.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

The finest ones are the ones handed down or given or third-hand.

Now there you've hit a nerve. My father used to sign his name with a stick welder on all his steel tools. Small tools he used a vibrating etch pen. A few remain, and are used with a degree of reverence.

[Capt Kirk]

[QUOTE=ford38v8;1352076] I would suppose that the cause is that the machining of the keyway or splines concentrates and directs stress to the slots.
QUOTE]

38v8. You are correct. I've got a background in Structural Engineering and have been thinking about these fractures. I had asked in a previous post if this is the typical place these axles break and you indicated that it is.

At the taper, the large diameter of the taper is stronger (stiffer) than the small diameter end. Torsional stresses will tend to concentrate more at the stiffer part of the taper...right where the keyway starts. The keyway has sharp 90* corners and stresses don't like to go around a sharp 90* corner...they would prefer to migrate around a rounded 90* corner. If the keyway were a steel dowel, these axles may not be breaking like this.

[Mart]

If you struggle to undo the nut and apply the puller tool, you could put the hub (complete with wheel) back on the axle, and with everything suitably chocked, undo the nut and use the puller on the axle remnant. Using the weight of the car to hold it might be the most efficient way to do it.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mart

If you struggle to undo the nut and apply the puller tool, you could put the hub (complete with wheel) back on the axle, and with everything suitably chocked, undo the nut and use the puller on the axle remnant. Using the weight of the car to hold it might be the most efficient way to do it.

Mart.

Good idea mart! I'll put the wheel back on and get a helper to stand on the brakes.
It's raining today...uggg...I miss my shop in Fairbanks!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Good idea mart! I'll put the wheel back on and get a helper to stand on the brakes.
It's raining today...uggg...I miss my shop in Fairbanks!

Or a high torque impact wrench (rata tat tater) would also do the job, but I'm bettin' the ranch it ain't going to be that tight.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Or a high torque impact wrench (rata tat tater) would also do the job, but I'm bettin' the ranch it ain't going to be that tight.

JM, looks like you get to keep the ranch. I've got an impact wrench but I rarely use it...it's old and doesn't have the torque as the new ones out this day. I thought I'd give it a try. Both nuts came off using the impact with very little effort...they were snugged up but not super tight.
I rolled the broken side into the shop. With my knees on the tire and one hand on the breaker bar...a quarter turn and the stub popped right out. I've got some pics I'll share in a minute.

[Capt Kirk]

Here ya go

[JSeery]

I'm not very good at stress analysis (never liked it!), but that looks odd to me. The darkened center section with the steep sides does not look like a normal failure mode (but then re-read the first sentence ).

[Capt Kirk]

The other side...also came off with one hand on the breaker bar.

[Ol' Ron]

Not having any idea of why this happens, but I know it was quite common back in my yiut. One cure was to drill a hole in the axles about 12" long. I never did this because we used 3/4 ton axles in the stick car. Now if one of you engineers out there thinks it a good idea. I have a lathe your free to use, bring your own drill.

[JSeery]

Well in this case it was caused by the nuts not being torqued to the correct value (and apparently nowhere near it!). This puts the load on the keyway and not the tapper. If done correctly the keyway should have amost no load on it.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Well in this case it was caused by the nuts not being torqued to the correct value (and apparently nowhere near it!). This puts the load on the keyway and not the tapper. If done correctly the keyway should have amost no load on it.

I agree 100%. The rear end is freed up and dropped down...now time to deal with the front of the torque tube.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Another wakeup call, if you will.......before you run out and buy those drum retainers, and hastily bolt them in place, with a sigh of relief, it might be a good idea to pull those drums first, and check the axles for stress cracks/fractures, etc., condition of key ways and keys, condition of taper on axles, and drum hubs, and condition of threads on axles and axle nuts. Then if all looks good in those areas, clean and reseat those tapers using some laping compound as ford38v8 mentioned in one of his recent posts. Give those tapers a final cleaning, DO NOT put any type of lube on those clean dry tapers, put good keys in their proper location, reinstall the drums, and torque the axle nuts to the correct specification after making damn sure you have axle nuts of the correct material and heat treat hardness.

ps....I am sure some who read this, who normally like to take shortcuts, and do things quickly, will probably think this is unnecessary, or does not apply to them.

[Mart]

Yup, keep those nuts tight, boys. Just because they were tight when you fitted them does not mean they have remained tight. Get em tight and check and recheck on a regular basis. Personally I've stopped using castellated nuts and splitpins and use a Philidas brand locking nut. I paint mark them so I can monitor that they have not backed off. If when you go to them and retighten, if they turn a bit you don't know if it is because everything has settled and they can go a bit tighter or if they have backed off. By paint marking you can be sure they have not backed off.
I don't expect anyone else to do this, and don't want to argue the toss on it, it's just what I do.

Mart.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

I agree 100%. The rear end is freed up and dropped down...now time to deal with the front of the torque tube.

Capt, a suggestion on the above.....just drop that rear assembly down far enough to allow the top of rear spring to clear the rear cross member. Remove the U joint coupling halves, and begin bringing the rear back and from under the car. If you have the rear too low before you start bringing it back, the bell shaped part at the front of the torque tube will hang up at the beginning of the sheetmetal tunnel. I usually insert a separate piece of scrap sheetmetal between that bell and the beginning of the tunnel to act as a shoehorn as that bell starts back into the tunnel. I also use some wood shims between the floor and the frame X rails (after loosening several bolts on each side of the floor that fasten to the x rails) to slightly raise that tunnel area. This all helps that torque tube to come back and through that tunnel. Just my way of doing things.

[Capt Kirk]

Is this a good stopping point for a beer?

[Capt Kirk]

OK, now it is!

[JSeery]

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Looking good! You are really getting after it.

[JM 35 Sedan]

You da man Capt. Have a cold one!

[Capt Kirk]

I'm going to have a beer and try to remember how I got that spring compressed enough to get it mounted to the axle. Kind of a catch 22...I may have forgot because of the beers since them. Hmmmm.

[JM 35 Sedan]

CAUTION....be carefull taking that spring off. I have some pictures on how I do that, that I think show a couple of good safe ways of doing it. I can send them to you if you are interested in seeing them

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

CAUTION....be carefull taking that spring off. I have some pictures on how I do that, that I think show a couple of good safe ways of doing it. I can send them to you if you are interested in seeing them

Absolutely!! Can you post them on this thread? I think it would be good for future reference.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I could do that Capt, but these pictures are amoung maybe close to 100 pictures that I took of every step of recently rebuilding the rear of my 35 fordor avatar. I am in the process of doing a complete article on this subject describing each step of the process along with pictures on each step. Who knows when I will actually finish this article in the form I feel it would be good enough to publish. So, until then I do not want to make any of these pictures available to the public, anticipating they would be copied an shown around the internet. I would be happy to send them to you personally though, knowing and trusting you well enough from past dealings, if you would pm me your email address.

[Capt Kirk]

JM...PM sent.

I got the rear end drug into the garage but I can't lift it onto the table and I'm not gearing up the cherry picker for this. I need to wait till the boy gets home to give me a hand. Hmmm...what to do in the mean time...there's a beer over there...

[Capt Kirk]

Just remembered I have a porta-power out there...I think I'll give that a try.

[Capt Kirk]

Porta power worked like a dream!! I didn't have it when I put the car together. I've got pics and will post as soon as I can get them off my phone.

[Capt Kirk]

Took longer to set the tool up than it did to get the spring off

[Capt Kirk]

Overall view. Found a couple other problems that I'm going to have to deal with before putting it back together.

[JSeery]

You may not have the stuff laying around to do it, but I use something like jackstands or blocks. I pick up one side, block it up and then the other side and so on. By lifting it just a little at a time and only one side I can eventually get about anything where I want it.

And remember to pay attention to the gaskets on ether side of the center section! You need to know the thickness and the side they came off of. I would check them and write in on the center section with a marker as soon as it comes apart.

You are really making progress!!!

[Mart]

Just throwing this out there, but remember, if you want to minimise the teardown, just pull the left side casing and radius arm. You can make the repair quite simply from the one side, but it must be the left side. If the gaskets come off cleanly, they can be reused with a thin smear of sealant.

Just pointing out that you don't need to do a full rebuild if the time isn't right. If you want to do that, fair enough, and it's what many would want, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

Progress report. I've got it completely stripped apart and on the table. Carrier bearings and races look great. I pulled the left side and I didn't see a gasket on either face...I'll look closer later but a gasket certainly wasn't obvious. The other side (Mart, I'm doing a full rebuild...I don't want to do this again) had a thin gasket which isn't any good but I will measure it. Has anybody ever heard of no gasket on one side?
You guys will know more about what this means than I do but the overall axle length is 32 7/8" and it has 16 teeth. I haven't cleaned the grease off completely but the gears and bearings I've seen so far look good. I'll post some more pics in a minute.

[Capt Kirk]

It's all apart

[Capt Kirk]

The last batch for the day

[JSeery]

One of the axles looks a little short!

[ford38v8]

Something that never occurred to me before, but with regard to the gasket packs, if one were to simply reuse the same packs, that's all well and good, but must also use the same housings as came off on each side. This of course is mandatory for '37 and up, but the early housings can be flipped, thereby making it important to get them on the same side. On those earlier housings, the better way would be to inspect the outer bearing surface and put the best surface on the bottom, then deal with which gaskets go where.

On reassembly, dress down any burrs that appear on both the banjo and the housings, and do not chase the threads on the banjo, as they are intentionally tight to help prevent oil seepage. Use non hardening thread sealer on every bolt, and wire brush the excess before it sets up.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by jseery

one of the axles looks a little short!

lol!!!

[Capt Kirk]

38v8...I think my axle housing are one directional.

I went back out and wiped down the gasket surface and there are gaskets on both housings. One broke when I took the housing off and this gasket measures .006. The gasket on the other housing is intact with the exception of a little piece missing at the outer edge of one of the bolt holes. I didn't remove this gasket so I can't measure it.

[JSeery]

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The gaskets come in a verity of sizes so you can get the stack down to within a few thousands. Speedways set has the following sizes included in their axle gasket kit:

•(2) - White gasket thickness - .003"
•(2) - Ivory gasket thickness - .005"
•(2) - Green gasket thickness - .007"
•(2) - Blue gasket thickness - .009"

VanPelt sells a BEST Gasket set, looks like it has the same size ranges.

Total of both sides determines bearing preload and the difference between them determines backlash. Everyone I know sets them by "feel" as to both preload and backlash.

[Init1]

Since you are going to need to remove the diff and axle shafts anyway spend some more $$ and install brake drum retainers. They are not expensive and they work.
Vern Tardell has them.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

The gaskets come in a verity of sizes so you can get the stack down to within a few thousands. Speedways set has the following sizes included in their axle gasket kit:

•(2) - White gasket thickness - .003"
•(2) - Ivory gasket thickness - .005"
•(2) - Green gasket thickness - .007"
•(2) - Blue gasket thickness - .009"

VanPelt sells a BEST Gasket set, looks like it has the same size ranges.

Total of both sides determines bearing preload and the difference between them determines backlash. Everyone I know sets them by "feel" as to both preload and backlash.

The second pic you're showing looks like what I was planning on ordering from van pelts...looks like there's just one gasket though. Are all the sizes neatly stacked to look like one?

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Init1

Since you are going to need to remove the diff and axle shafts anyway spend some more $$ and install brake drum retainers. They are not expensive and they work.
Vern Tardell has them.

Already ordered...along with his rear end book. Thanks!

[JSeery]

They are stacked, it list 8, 2 of each of the sizes on the label. The label is a little hard to read, but list the sizes included by color. The second photo is from Best site.

[Capt Kirk]

Not sure of the right way to do this here but I'm officially in the market for an axle shaft that's 32 7/8" long with 16 teeth. Anybody have one of these in their inventory that they'd be willing to sell. Thanks!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

38v8...I think my axle housing are one directional.

I went back out and wiped down the gasket surface and there are gaskets on both housings. One broke when I took the housing off and this gasket measures .006. The gasket on the other housing is intact with the exception of a little piece missing at the outer edge of one of the bolt holes. I didn't remove this gasket so I can't measure it.

Capt, good job on disassembly! A few comments.....

1. 37 to 40 axle housings are normally one directional, although I have seen them swapped around by some hotroders to give some funky spring possitions.
2. In one of your earlier pictures, taken of the rear banjo center, I noticed standard, non ford, bolts with lock washers bolting the axle housings bell ends to the banjo housing. The stock Ford bolts used here are special to help in sealing as are the female threaded holes on the banjo housing. I would suggest getting the original type bolts to use there.
3. Many folks probably do set bearing preloads and backlash by feel. This is the way I did mine in 2013, and in 2015 that rear had a complete failure, and all that I could salvage from that mess were the two axle housings and the torque tube. I used measuring devices this spring to make those setting on my rebuilt rear, and I plan to do any future rebuilds this way rather than by feel.
4. When you measure those shim gaskets that were between the housing bells and the banjo housing, keep in mind that those gaskest get compressed when all bolts are final torqued. So, for example, if you measure the thickness of an old/used gasket @ 0.007", it most likely started out at something like 0.008". Just sayin'... you would probably not be correct in putting a new 0.007" gasket back in.
5. Also, if the carrier bearings and their cups/races look good, and you decide to reuse them, keep in mind there has been some wear on those bearings over the years, and putting the rear back together with original shim/gasket thicknesses will more than likely not give you the correct preload, IMO.
6. While you have things this far apart, I would strongly suggest replacing all three rear seals, two in the small ends of axle housings and one in the front of the torque tube.

I believe there were some other things I noted as I reread this entire post earlier today, but when suffering from CRS, I could only recall these 6 things. If and when I remember more, I will just add them to this list.

ps...keep up the good work Capt, you did well today getting all this done, I assume working alone? You are much faster at this than I am, but than you might be a bit younger and still full of pep and vigor .

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

[B] Many folks probably do set bearing preloads and backlash by feel. This is the way I did mine in 2013, and in 2015 that rear had a complete failure, and all that I could salvage from that mess were the two axle housings and the torque tube. I used measuring devices this spring to make those setting on my rebuilt rear, and I plan to do any future rebuilds this way rather than by feel.

This is going to get me in BIG trouble with JM (and who knows who else!!!), but just couldn't resist! Just doesn't say much for your "feel" ability JM!!!

I've never seen a failure based on this factor, but would guess it is possible. We set up a LOT of race environment banjos and always by feel. But if you are uneasy with that by all means measure it. My QC is even set up by feel, myself I trust that far more that instrument reading in this limited application.

On 9 inch and 8.8 inch it is totally by very careful precision measuring, but not on the banjo. This is just me, not trying to persuade anyone, you should do what you are comfortable with.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Capt, good job on disassembly! A few comments.....

1. 37 to 40 axle housings are normally one directional, although I have seen them swapped around by some hotroders to give some funky spring possitions.
2. In one of your earlier pictures, taken of the rear banjo center, I noticed non standard ford bolts with lock washers bolting the axle housings bell ends to the banjo housing. These standard Ford bolts are special to help in sealing as are the female threaded holes on the banjo housing. I would suggest getting the original type bolts to use there.
3. Many folks probably do set bearing preloads and backlash by feel. This is the way I did mine in 2013, and in 2015 that rear had a complete failure, and all that I could salvage from that mess were the two axle housings and the torque tube. I used measuring devices this spring to make those setting on my rebuilt rear, and I plan to do any future rebuilds this way rather than by feel.
4. When you measure those shim gaskets that were between the housing bells and the banjo housing, keep in mind that those gaskest get compressed when all bolts are final torqued. So for example, if you measure the thickness of an old/used gasket @ 0.007" it most likely started out at something like 0.008". Just sayin'... you would probably not be correct in putting a new 0.008" gasket back in.
5. Also, if the carrier bearings and their cups look good and you decide to reuse them, keep in mind there has been some wear on those bearings and putting the rear back together with original shim/gasket thickness will more than likely not give you the correct preload, IMO.
6. While you have things this far apart, I would strongly suggest replacing all three rear seals, two in the small ends of axle housings and one in the front of the torque tube.I believe there were some other things I noted as I reread this entire post earlier today, but when suffering from CRS, I could only recall the 6 things. If and when I remember more, I will just add them to this list.

ps...keep up the good work Capt, you did well today getting all this done, I assume working alone? You are much faster at this than I am, but than you might be a bit younger and still full of pep and vigor .

JM, LOL, pep and vigor...not hardly. You made some very good and helpful points. Regarding the banjo bolts...good eye!...not knowing any better, when I restored the car, I thought it would be a nice feature to have stainless bolts there. I removed one at a time and replaced the originals. I'm sure I still have the original bolts in Fairbanks. As far as pre-loads and backlash, I'm going to have to reference my book when it gets here. I'm going to have to buy a mag base and dial indicator...and that's OK...I've been wanting one for some time now. I've got micrometers out to 4", calipers and a bore gauge...I need the mag base setup!
With regards to the old gasket being compressed. I was wondering about that. The one I measured was .006 and figured that over the decades, it would have compressed at least a little. The thinner a material is the less it will compress. I'm not sure a .007 gasket would compress to .006. I was thinking about putting a new .006 gasket on and letting it compress whatever it will and seeing how that works with any bearing (carrier bearings and races look really good) and gear wear. Good place to start anyway.
Regarding seals, I was planning on replacing the axle and hub seals...didn't give much thought to the seal in the torque tube. I wasn't planning on pulling the torque tube off...is this seal you're talking about at the trans end of the torque tube?
All this vim and vigor resulted in a sore back so I'm sitting in my rocker with 12 oz of back pain medicine.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

This is going to get me in BIG trouble with JM (and who knows who else!!!), but just couldn't resist! Just doesn't say much for your "feel" ability JM!!!

I've never seen a failure based on this factor, but would guess it is possible. We set up a LOT of race environment banjos and always by feel. But if you are uneasy with that by all means measure it. My QC is even set up by feel, myself I trust that far more that instrument reading in this limited application.

On 9 inch and 8.8 inch it is totally by very careful precision measuring, but not on the banjo. This is just me, not trying to persuade anyone, you should do what you are comfortable with.

Don't spoil my chance at getting another tool! "Honey, I NEED this tool in order that we don't break down making it necessary for you to push the car"

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Don't spoil my chance at getting another tool! "Honey, I NEED this tool in order that we don't break down making it necessary for you to push the car"

Now there is a GOOD point!

[Capt Kirk]

Ring gear pattern.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Regarding seals, I was planning on replacing the axle and hub seals...didn't give much thought to the seal in the torque tube. I wasn't planning on pulling the torque tube off...is this seal you're talking about at the trans end of the torque tube?

Kirk....Here's a drawing showing the B-4245 seal at the FRONT of the torque tube. Remember, you need to remove that little snap ring to pull the TT off the drive shaft, and to remove the speedo gear, roller bearing, etc. from the front of the shaft. Ya done good getting that rear totally un-glued today. DD

[Capt Kirk]

Coop, I was hoping to not pull the torque tube if I didn't need to. I know it's easy but I don't want to create problems where none exists. Thanks for the sketches...it shows a lot.
I did notice that my spedo gear has about 3/16" play (forward to back on the shaft)...is that normal? I have pics in both positions...will post if necessary.

[V8COOPMAN]

I haven't been in that end of a torque tube in eons, but everyone seems to say that that range of play is OK. DD

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

I haven't been in that end of a torque tube in eons, but everyone seems to say that that range of play is OK. DD

Thanks Coop, I was hoping!!

[KGS]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Not sure of the right way to do this here but I'm officially in the market for an axle shaft that's 32 7/8" long with 16 teeth. Anybody have one of these in their inventory that they'd be willing to sell. Thanks!

Try Third Gen Automotive at McMinnville, TN. 844-327-5988.
He had two or three NOS sets of these axles about a year ago.
As others have said, be sure of what rear you have before you
buy anything. Your length and tooth count looks to be an 81A-4235
axle that fits 39 to 41. If they are still available, I would buy a pair
guaranteeing, to the extent that you can guarantee anything, that you
won't have an axle break in the future. Ken

[flatford8]

Capt, sorry you had this issue but I'm learning a lot from this thread. One thing is I had no idea JM35 was so knowledgable about rear-ends...... other than the ones being held up by a pair of shapely legs !!!!.....Mark

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by flatford8

One thing is I had no idea JM35 was so knowledgable about rear-ends...... other than the ones being held up by a pair of shapely legs !!!!.....Mark

Yeah, the smilin' guy! Well-versed in all sorts of parts. DD

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Yeah, the smilin' guy! Well-versed in all sorts of parts. DD

He's thinking "Cadillac" right there!...and probably a 1998 model

[flatford8]

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How can you tell he's smiling, he's not looking at the camera. He's looking at the headlights on that Cadillac!! ....... Mark

[B-O-B]

Headlights hell DAGMARS!!!

[Capt Kirk]

He needs another T-shirt...one that says "Flatheads and Bumpy Fronts Forever"

[JM 35 Sedan]

Hey guy's, whoever that old bald headed guy in that picture is.... I'm thinking he's probably "feelin" pretty good right there.

COOP, where in the heck are you diggin' up these incriminating photos??

[Capt Kirk]

Took the day off from working on the rear end. I could have cleaned some parts but I'd rather have them oily for now since stuff likes to rust in MI. I've been searching for an axle...have some leads but nothing has transpired yet. I'll get my gaskets and seals ordered tomorrow. My thoughts are also turning to brakes. I've never been completely happy with the way the car stops but attributed it to being a conversion. Was thinking about throwing some new shoes on the back. I'll go snap a pic to show you what I have.

[Capt Kirk]

Here's the current state of affairs. I didn't change the brakes when I restored the car because there was plenty of meat on them. My concern is if they're saturated with whatever and making stopping a little more sluggish.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

COOP, where in the heck are you diggin' up these incriminating photos??

Same guy, same distant smile! Different day, and more parts! DD

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

He's thinking "Cadillac" right there!...and probably a 1998 model

Cap, sorry, I hope this doesn't hijack us from your very important repair. As I recall she explained, being only 17 years old, she couldn't partake what she was serving. Might have got that wrong, the game on the TV was distracting me. But that would make it your '98 model year pretty close. Maybe '97.

JM, Sorry that one is my fault, I posted it on the meet thread. Folks we're in the restaurant next to the venue in Springfield for the Central National Meet in 2014. That one isn't the only FordBarn photo I've posted that went viral! Great buddy, and 'Barn'er, Glenn Sanders at left.

These guys are great road-buddies. Two other shots from this trip.

It's my car that's blown a fuse after the side-trip shown. Totally worth it, except that I'd just lent three fuses to a dude that morning! JM had one that got me back to the hotel.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Not wishing to take this thread any further off course, but I have to "confess" (with fingers crossed behind my back) it was Glenn who convinced me to go there because it was within walking distance of the hotel, and it was Cecil and Redneck who told Glenn about this place, and how nice it was .

[Capt Kirk]

Tangled, please hijack away if you're going to post pictures like that.
Geeze, I guess I need to start going on some of these road trips with you guys!

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

...It's my car that's blown a fuse after the side-trip shown. Totally worth it, except that I'd just lent three fuses to a dude that morning! JM had one that got me back to the hotel.

Jeff, I thought you were smarter than that. Most guys would have learned their lesson after the first two fuses!

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Jeff, I thought you were smarter than that. Most guys would have learned their lesson after the first two fuses!

Hi Everyone. Wait here. I was smarter than that. I'd given gave away my three spare fuses to a dude who was trying to get onto the show field and popping them like popcorn, all of his and some of mine, stuck at trailer parking at dawn. My brother Steve and I helped troubleshoot and left him with all my extras for safety (for him, as I'd find out).

Much later in the day, after the judging and before I could restock, my car blew one fuse that killed the headlights and we were, ahem, out after dark. I drove a little while, but after the locals were waving at us and not in a good way, I ducked into a large lighted parking lot where JM and Glenn came to the rescue while I snapped pictures, apparently. We were lucky to leave that Tilted Kilt joint when we did.

Back on topic. The wheel cylinders aren't leaking.

Those brake shoes, and I'm no expert, don't look like they've been making satisfactory contact with the drums. Also looks like newer material versus the fabric/asbestos of original, but you've got a later hydraulic brake setup that I know nothing about. I'll stop now. Not a mechanic, just playing one on TV.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

...it was Glenn who convinced me to go there because it was within walking distance of the hotel...

Hi Everyone. JM is correct. Except being car guys. We drove.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Did the Dream Cruise several weeks ago and that's nothing but stop and go. Had the car up to highway speed last weekend....

Cap, My Spidey-Sense says that's when it got broke to 99%, it just fell off close to home. No telling how broke it has been for how long but that is a crazy separation.

I'm also curious about comments regarding the ring gear shown in post #157. I can't tell where the contact is, so help us here with more photos please.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

He needs another T-shirt...one that says "Flatheads and Bumpy Fronts Forever"

Hmmm. You might just have paid for this fiasco. Depends on the artwork methinks. Bud do-able

[Capt Kirk]

I will try to get some better pictures of the ring gear when I get home.
Kirk

[JM 35 Sedan]

Maybe a good closeup shot of the pinion gear teeth as well, unless it's already posted, and I just missed it.

[Capt Kirk]

It's hard getting the right angle on these. They look ok to me...the wear appears to be in the center of the teeth with unworn tooth all around it.

[Capt Kirk]

Gaskets, seals and brake shoes ordered today. Still searching for the elusive axle shaft.

[Paul Dobbin]

Same thing happened yesterday to a friends 35 Ford Fordor. Broke the left axle and was lucky enough to not have the wheel come off. I and a couple friends went and towed him home, 1/2 mile. Lucky again.
Anybody have a good 35 Ford rear axle for sale or know somebody near Atlanta or Knoxville who will install it?
[email protected]

[mhaim]

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This is on eBay right now. Search his listing heading. Been for sale for quite a while. His shipping is worst than Mac's.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Paul Dobbin

Same thing happened yesterday to a friends 35 Ford Fordor. Broke the left axle and was lucky enough to not have the wheel come off. I and a couple friends went and towed him home, 1/2 mile. Lucky again.
Anybody have a good 35 Ford rear axle for sale or know somebody near Atlanta or Knoxville who will install it?
[email protected]

I've got a 40 axle in mine. I think installing the shaft is going to be the easy part. Diff comes out easy and comes apart easy. Finding a reasonably priced axle is going to be the hard part.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Paul Dobbin

Same thing happened yesterday to a friends 35 Ford Fordor. Broke the left axle and was lucky enough to not have the wheel come off. I and a couple friends went and towed him home, 1/2 mile. Lucky again.
Anybody have a good 35 Ford rear axle for sale or know somebody near Atlanta or Knoxville who will install it?
[email protected]

Call this place. I've never done business with them but asked them if they had my axle and they didn't. Was told that they get parts every week and to keep calling. They might have the axle you're looking for.

http://lbcunited.com/earlyford2/inde...f0094c995cd508

[Paul Dobbin]

OK thanks! Next question is should 3 old guys do this ourselves, even without all the speciaity tools the books say we'll need?

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Paul Dobbin

OK thanks! Next question is should 3 old guys do this ourselves, even without all the speciaity tools the books say we'll need?

I guess it depends on the extent of the rebuild. If you're changing gears then things get a bit more complicated. I'm changing an axle...not pulling the pinion gear and am using the same ring gear. Axle housing gasket thicknesses are critical for carrier bearing pre-load. My bearings are in great condition so I'm just changing seals and the axle and replacing the gasket with the same thickness that I removed. I haven't done a full gear change on a banjo but have done a lot of research. I'd do a banjo all day long as opposed to a modern diff!

[Talkwrench]

Three old brains will work out fine on building a diff, and that's the hardest tool.
You really don't need anything major, maybe a dial gauge the best thing is an engineers vice so you can turn it whichever way as your building..

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

Three old brains will work out fine on building a diff, and that's the hardest tool.
You really don't need anything major, maybe a dial gauge the best thing is an engineers vice so you can turn it whichever way as your building..

Three old brains is two old brains more than it took back in the 30's and 40's.
These old cars aren't princesses...It seems like some are making them princesses when they don't need to be. Farmer John worked on these cars without "knats ass" instrumentation. I respect that history.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Paul Dobbin

OK thanks! Next question is should 3 old guys do this ourselves, even without all the speciaity tools the books say we'll need?

As the others have said, work smart and work safe. Good friends, ingenuity, a few common tools, a well stocked garage refrigerator, what more do you want? ...Oh, well, of course the dancing girls!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Paul Dobbin

OK thanks! Next question is should 3 old guys do this ourselves, even without all the speciaity tools the books say we'll need?

Three old guys might work a lot better than this one old guy who rebuilt a '35 rear alone this past May, but in all fairness to some friends, I turned down offers from two good helpers because of the confined work area, and I wanted to take this at a slow pace, covering every detail, and documenting each step with pictures..

[KGS]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Call this place. I've never done business with them but asked them if they had my axle and they didn't. Was told that they get parts every week and to keep calling. They might have the axle you're looking for.

http://lbcunited.com/earlyford2/inde...f0094c995cd508

Capt Kirk, Did you try Third Gen as suggested in post 162?
Paul, you should try him as well.
Ken

[Capt Kirk]

I found an axle. Thanks to all the Barners who helped me in my quest. Will spend the weekend cleaning the parts and getting it ready to reassemble when the parts arrive.

[V8COOPMAN]

Where did ya find the axle, and does the story behind it give you a warm-'n-fuzzy as to it's "health"? DD

[Capt Kirk]

Coop, I had several responses to my want AD here and they were in a wide variety of conditions. I went with the one that appeared in the best condition. I have some dye penetrant and will check the new and existing axles for cracks. I also have those drum clips here as insurance. Still waiting on my gaskets and seals. I need to devise a seal installer for the seals in the bells. Will work on that tomorrow. I noticed a big blob of "Mississippi Crude" in one of the bells that I'll need to clean out. I got my Vern Tardel's Banjo book the other day...helpful information for someone who has never been into one before. I'm in a holding pattern for now while I wait for all the parts to arrive. Weather seems to be holding for now.

[Capt Kirk]

Got most of the parts cleaned off today. Rainy, blah day today. The parts look like they've got some use but to my eye, they look serviceable. I took some pics but the pics make things look worse than they are. I also took the rear wheel seals and bearings out and the hub races and rollers look good. I read a post where someone used lapping compound on the taper and hub to get things mated. I tried that and it works great! I was given a recommendation from a very knowledgeable person here that I should remove the torque tube and driveline and pinion. I don't particularly want to remove the pinion but am now leaning toward taking off the torque tube and driveline just so I can check if I need to add some more preload to the pinion bearings. Is that driveline pin a single use item or can it be driven out and reused??

[Capt Kirk]

Here's some pics of the clean parts and the taper after lapping. Again, the photos make things look worse than they are.

[V8COOPMAN]

Man, I sure hate to rain on your already wet day, and I sure hope that I'm just seeing this picture at a disadvantaged angle, but those threads surely do look flat......and kind'a spooky. Tell me I'm wrong! DD

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Man, I sure hate to rain on your already wet day, and I sure hope that I'm just seeing this picture at a disadvantaged angle, but those threads surely do look flat......and kind'a spooky. Tell me I'm wrong! DD

It's the camera in my phone Coop..camera is focused on the extension cord and pic is fuzzy. I noticed in the spider cup picture it looks like there's .020 gouges dug into it from the spiders but there's not...can barely feel them. The carrier bearings look like in the picture that they've been run through gravel but they look pretty good in real life. I was going to chase the axle threads just to clean them up.

[Capt Kirk]

Does anybody know what the diameter (and tolerance) is for the ID of the rear wheel bearings (OD of bearing race on the axle housings)?

[ford38v8]

Rainy in Michigan, what a surprise! After a bit, I'll be jumping into my pool here in Sunny California! (gotta rub it in). On the pin, I'd advise you to get a new one. One end is mushroom, the other end is peened. While re-use is certainly possible, it's the cheapest part you'll buy, while having a high dollar potential damage to the driveline if it fails.

It never occurred to me to recheck the pinion bearing preload. Not a bad idea, good on ya. Ford literature on that procedure is sadly lacking in real world experience. The following is much easier and frankly, more consistently accurate: Having only the banjo with pinion assembled, it is positioned pinion shaft down in a bench vise, locked tightly by the pinion shaft. With both hands, spin the banjo strong and fast as you can. Correct preload will prevent free spin, stopping the banjo at no more than one full revolution.

While handling the banjo and housings, it is easy to nick the mating surfaces, creating burrs. These must be dressed down with a file. Take care to not file beyond flush. Do not chase threads on banjo or bolts, as they are correct with interference fitting. Obtain two sets of housing gaskets, the first set to be modified for quick positioning-repositioning between left and right sides by splitting the full circles, and opening the bolt holes. Housings will then remain assembled, merely loosened to allow trading of the (tool) gaskets. If done with care, these gaskets become a valuable time saver in gaging backlash, while the actual gaskets remain pristine. Final assembly will require thread sealer, after which the remaining sealer squish on the outside can be easily removed before it sets up.

[Capt Kirk]

38v8. During restoration, I replaced the banjo bolts with stainless bolts for the "effect" and amazingly, they didn't leak. I have original bolts on the way to replace the stainless ones I had in there.
I just cleaned the banjo and pinion gear with solvent. I don't get any play back and forth in the pinion but I can easily turn it (with driveline and torque tube still attached) with the tip of my thump. It doesn't "coast" beyond me pushing it but it might if the drive shaft wasn't still attached. I'm going to pull the torque tube and I'll need to order a new drive shaft pin...or I could use a 16 penny nail like my dad would have done...LOL. That's a good idea about having "tool" gaskets...with any luck, this will be my first and last dive into a banjo (at least for this car) so I ordered one set and will start with the same thicknesses that I removed since I'm not changing anything. I'll check then make whatever adjustments I need.

[Capt Kirk]

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Did the dye penetrant test on my other axle...appears to be in good shape.

[Capt Kirk]

Pulled the torque tube this morning and unpinned the driveline. The pinion wasn't loose but it freewheeled. With the spline in the vice and a good spin of the housing...it spun somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15 times. I pulled the nuts and removed the outer bearing to inspect and clean. The outer bearing and race looked great...noticed "Timken" and a Ford script on the bearing as well. Put it back together and snugged it up to the point where I get slightly more than one turn on the spin test. Seems tight to me but I trust you guys. I can grab the splines in my fist and turn it but it's stiff. I need to get a coupling pin ordered.

[ford38v8]

All I can add here is the Ford script / Timkin in serviceable condition is likely better than anything else off the shelf today!

You didn't mention... The nut locking plate? (for lack of proper name) Reused and can be relied on?

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

All I can add here is the Ford script / Timkin in serviceable condition is likely better than anything else off the shelf today!

You didn't mention... The nut locking plate? (for lack of proper name) Reused and can be relied on?

I reused the nut locking plate. It only had 2 of the tabs bent and I ended up using two of the other previously unused tabs.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Seems tight to me but I trust you guys. I can grab the splines in my fist and turn it but it's stiff. I need to get a coupling pin ordered.

Preload should be a heavy drag, around 15 ft-lb if you are checking it to get it to start moving.

Note: I misstated something earlier, I was reading Tardels new booklet on rear axle rebuilds. In the first quick scan of it I didn't notice him using any measurements to check preloads. That was INCORRECT! On a little more detailed reading on page 42 he shows the checking of the pinion preload with a torque wrench.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Preload should be a heavy drag, around 15 ft-lb if you are checking it to get it to start moving.

Note: I misstated something earlier, I was reading Tardels new booklet on rear axle rebuilds. In the first quick scan of it I didn't notice him using any measurements to check preloads. That was INCORRECT! On a little more detailed reading on page 42 he shows the checking of the pinion preload with a torque wrench.

I went out to figure out what I could use to get a torque wrench onto the end of the splines. I thought I'd try a socket to see if that might work. The first one I grabbed was my oil pressure sender socket...ta-da...slid right on and worked good enough to check pre-load. I don't have a beam type torque wrench and my "clink" one didn't cut the mustard.
Now that I've had the bearing pack flooded with Lucas assembly lube, the pre load feels a lot better to the hand...certainly a lot more snug than it was!!

[JSeery]

I have several of the click style torque wrenches, but still find the old beam type are useful for a lot of things. Do you happen to have an inch-lb wrench? You can just convert the ft-lbs to in-lbs.

[Mart]

Careful, guys, 15 ft lbs sounds high to me, I'm sure when I have heard it quoted before it was in lbs INCHES I don't know the figure.

I'm interested because I have an axle apart and will be putting it back together soon when a bearing separator/puller arrives. first one I've done.

Mart.

[JSeery]

I was just quoting Tardel, if it's a type-o, he is consistent as it is quoted in more than one place.

I just checked a couple of other references and they call out 15 in-lbs. So, needs a little more checking into. As I have stated several times, this is not how I go about it and I have not checked the preload with a measuring device myself!

[Mart]

I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."

I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.

Mart.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."

I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.

Mart.

LOL, I just read the same thread. A few post further down may explain the confusion. The original specs were with a direct pull spring scale and are in pounds. The confusion is the conversion of direct pull in pounds to torque values.

If you are interested Mart I believe the poster of the thread you referenced claims he couldn't find any specification for the preload so used a modern rear axle value.

[Capt Kirk]

This is a quote from a thread on HAMB.

"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs. then I tighten up the last big nut I used lock tight on the threads. "

This was a quote from Van Pelts.

"Install the adjusting and lock nuts (4634), with the lock washer (4636) between them, and tighten the nuts so that the sleeve turns on the bearing cones with a heavy drag * and no end play. Lock the adjustment by bending the tabs of the washer against the side of the nuts. (* Ford spec was 12-17 inch pounds)."

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Mart

I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."

I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.

Mart.

This makes sense. The used bearings having mated with the races should offer less resistance. I'm thinking the one revolution spin advice should be revised to reflect the used bearing condition? Cap Kirk stated that his preload spin ended up "slightly more than one spin", so maybe up that to 1 1/2 ~ 2 spins would be safer? His "as found" having been freewheeling 10-15 spins with bearings mated does raise some question here.

[JSeery]

This is from the HAMB thread referenced, he is using Ford 9 inch and 8.8 inch specifications as a "similar to" for his values.

"Not being able to find any preload specs for the diff preload I used the preload specs for a pinion bearing from some Ford Motorsports read end instructions. With new bearings I was shooting for a number between 16 in lbs and 28 in lbs. I needed to take more shim out. Took the top bell off and removed the .005 shim gasket. And the left the two .007’s Bolted the bell back on and came up with 22 in lbs of for the preload on the diff bearings. That sounded good to me."


Somewhere else he refers to using Ford 9 in and 8.8 in rear axle values.

VanPelts numbers should be good but it is interesting that his is the original Ford spring-scale values now being used as in-lb values! The original Ford specification was 12 to 17 pounds.

[Capt Kirk]

When Van Pelts says to tighten till it has "heavy drag"...mine now has less than heavy drag but quite a bit more than it did when I first got it apart. My bearings have been mated for 76 years so my logic is telling me that a bit less preload would be ok.

Is there a method of wrapping the splines with string with an eye at the end and using a fishing scale? JSeery...is this what you're talking about when you say "spring scale"?
Since the spline shaft isn't 2" in diameter, 12-17 pounds on the scale does not equate to 12-17 in-lbs. The shaft diameter is 1.1"...17x(1.1 / 2)= 9.35 in-lb

[ford38v8]

Cap, the "spring scale" referred to was a KRW tool made for Ford. When I used it on mine, the reading on the scale bounced radically while turning, preventing any kind of accurate measurement. After fooling with it for several hours, I did get the preload set by guesswork on the scale, but had no confidence in the value achieved. I took it to a flathead guru who used the vise/spin test, and told me I had indeed achieved the desired value, which surprised me.

[Capt Kirk]

I did a test. 10 pound dumbbell with a shoelace tied around it and wrapped around the splines. Released the weight and it didn't move. A little twist with my fingers and it moved some and then stopped...did this same thing repeatedly with the same result. In my previous post I figured I'd need 9.3 pounds hanging from the shaft to get 17 in-lbs of torque. My bearing pack is flooded with Lucas and for those that don't know, it's stringy and like honey. Before the Lucas, I did the spin test (bearings lubed with WD40) and got about a turn and a quarter. I feel comfortable where it's at now and the proof will be in the pudding as I drive it.

[Mart]

I think you may be out on your calcs.

If you had 17lbs at a 1" radius, you would need a heavier load at the radius of the spline, which is less than 1". 1" radius is 2" diameter.

I just measured the spline at 1.1" diameter so that's a .55" radius. 17/.55 is pprox 31.

I reckon you would need about 31 lbs acting at the radius of the splines to give an effective 17 lbs in.

I have not figured the radius of the string or the fact that the diameter is smaller between the splines. Not sure how relevant they are.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

LOL...Mart, you're absolutely correct! Smaller diameter more load to equate the same torque. I thought about the string thickness and the reduced diameter of the groove area of the spline but didn't think the difference would amount to much. Thanks for the correction...I went the wrong way with the calc...may have been the couple beers and/or the distractions here. Next time I'll think before I type. My pinion now has a firm but free feeling to it and the bearing pack has been mated forever. It's certainly tighter than it was and I have no doubt that it would spin with 30 pounds on it. Now I need to figure out how to recover from the embarrassment of a reversed numerator and denominator in my calc.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

Now I need to figure out how to recover from the embarrassment of a reversed numerator and denominator in my calc.

You can always blame it on getting older. Plus, I'd bet that QUITE A FEW folks wouldn't have a clue where to even begin calculating such. DD

[Capt Kirk]

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With Mart's revelation that I screwed up my calcs, I had to go out and check with more weight. I have a 10lb and 8lb dumbbell available. I tied both of those together and wrapped the splines. Turned the weights loose and it didn't move. Gave little encouragement and the weights went all the way to the floor at a very gradual speed. So, it's looking like 9.9 in-lbs. I'm fine with that with mated bearings.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

You can always blame it on getting older. Plus, I'd bet that QUITE A FEW folks wouldn't have a clue where to even begin calculating such. DD

Thanks Coop. It's simple math and I made a rookie mistake...and I'm embarrassed and thankful to Mart for correcting that mistake. I am getting older and things aren't working like they use to. I'm finding, as I go through this rebuild (my first), that there has been some debate/confusion over the ft-lb and in-lb topic and exactly what the number should be for pinion pre-load. Apparently, the "spin test" has worked forever but for the new guy, they might be looking for something a "little" more scientific. My wife couldn't get a half turn out of it and Hulk Hogan could get 2 turns. There isn't any talk about if the bearing pack should be dry, lightly oiled or coated in axle grease. A shoe lace and some dumbbells whittles down some of the uncertainty I think. I'm comfortable where mine is at now but just throwing other ideas out for the younger crowd that may find themselves in the position I'm in now.

[JSeery]

I think we are starting to mix things up again, there is a difference between 12 - 17 lbs of pull at .55 inches of radius and 12 - 17 in lbs.

Inch pounds is defined as 17 lbs at a distance of 1 inch. Your test is interesting and seems valid to me (and ingenious) but the numbers you are using do not equate to 12 - 17 in lbs. The numbers you are using would be 22 to 32 lbs of weight at the spline and 12 - 17 in lbs with a torque wrench.

The original Ford numbers were 12 - 17 lbs at the spline or 7 to 9.4 in lbs. I'm NOT saying that is the correct values to use, just pointing out that's how the math works out.

It would be interesting to know the history of this reference to 12 to 17 in lbs that keeps popping up, but I would be willing to bet that it is based on a misunderstanding of the original specification and transferring the pounds of pull at a distance of .55 inches to an in-lb value. This is an interesting topic (well at least to me it seems interesting).

[Mart]

Good point, J. Working out how to do an effective test is one thing, having the correct numbers to work from is another. I know how my used bearing assembly felt when I removed it, I will try and achieve the same feel when I reassemble with a different pinion. Are the lower numbers you quote traceable to a Ford publication or document? I might try and measure the drag just for the fun of it.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

[QUOTE=JSeery;1356587]I think we are starting to mix things up again, there is a difference between 12 - 17 lbs of pull at .55 inches of radius and 12 - 17 in lbs.
QUOTE]

That is correct. Van Pelts spec is 12 - 17 in-lbs of torque. This is 21.8 - 30.9 pounds of weight hanging on a 1.1" diameter shaft.

I could only find 18 pounds of weight to do this test. The shaft did not rotate when I let the weight hang on it but it slowly went to the floor once
I started it. So, 18 pounds hanging off a 1.1" diameter shaft is 9.9 in-lbs of torque. A little on the low side but I'm guessing OK because the bearings have already been mated.

[Capt Kirk]

[QUOTE=
The original Ford numbers were 12 - 17 lbs at the spline or 7 to 9.4 in lbs. I'm NOT saying that is the correct values to use, just pointing out that's how the math works out.
QUOTE]

Van Pelts says 12 - 17 in-lbs.

[JSeery]

I know what VanPelt says, just curious where it comes from. Doesn't match the original Ford spring pull spec at all and appears to be a confused transfer of the spring spec into in-lbs. It would be cool if someone with an original tool would set a pinion and then check it with a torque wrench.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I would suggest doing the banjo housing spin test as Alan mentioned in post 221, with splined end of pinion clamped in a soft jaw vice. You do not want the preload set too high on those used pinion bearings that would likely cause too much heat.

[deuce_roadster]

I have the KRW tool and the numbers on it are exactly the same as inch pounds, I checked it with a calibrated inch pound torque wrench. This may have already been mentioned as I haven't read all the threads.
Also, after setting up a banjo with the KRW tool, it verified the "spin test" as accurate.

[JSeery]

Good info deuce, but I'm not totally clear yet. I haven’t tried it myself but I would think 15 in-lbs of preload would not allow the pinion to spin as stated. If Ford wanted to call out the preload in in-lbs then I think they would have done so. Just some thoughts on my part.

[Talkwrench]

I set my preload with the spin in vice technique, no problems. You will soon get a 'feel' for how good your bearings are too. I had one NOS bearing that I felt wasn't quite right when I assembled it you could feel straight away , it was binding and was hard to 'break' the resistance..

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

I set my preload with the spin in vice technique, no problems. You will soon get a 'feel' for how good your bearings are too. I had one NOS bearing that I felt wasn't quite right when I assembled it you could feel straight away , it was binding and was hard to 'break' the resistance..

Talkwrench, I'm comfortable where I have my preload set and did the spin test and got a bit over a turn out of it. It's certainly better than the free-wheel that it was when I took it apart. There's no binding and there was an initial "break" required but that stands to reason. The question is inch-pounds, foot-pounds or pounds and what those numbers are...the answer to which makes a huge difference to the setting. I'm leaving mine at about 10 inch-pounds on mated bearings and will either have success or will have to spend some money for a bad decision. I'm not a bearing expert but feel that if a bearing is too tight it excludes the oil/grease that lubes and cools and the bearing will overheat and eat itself up. Too loose, it will allow misalignment of the gears which will also eat themselves up. My pinion was free wheeling but there was zero slop in any of it and the bearings and gears were great. I hope I didn't make a good situation worse by adding preload to a diff that has been happy for 76 years.

[Capt Kirk]

All of my parts came in yesterday including the axle...which looks amazing. I will be hitting it with dye penetrant this weekend before reassembly.

I'm sure I'll have some questions and will share some assembly pictures starting Saturday. One of the questions will be with respect to lube. I plan (unless told otherwise) on using some red grease that's in a container that says for disk and drum wheel bearings for gear assembly. I'll need to find out what kind of pump grease to use for the front and center driveline bearings and the wheel bearings. Thanks for all your help Barners!
Kirk

[JSeery]

Looks like progress!

[V8COOPMAN]

Hey Kirk.....You've got a whole sack-full of clean parts there, and it's gettin' late on a Saturday afternoon. We're wonderin' if you got that thing glued-together yet, and if maybe you've done a few do-nuts to see if it's gonna stay in one piece! DD

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Hey Kirk.....You've got a whole sack-full of clean parts there, and it's gettin' late on a Saturday afternoon. We're wonderin' if you got that thing glued-together yet, and if maybe you've done a few do-nuts to see if it's gonna stay in one piece! DD

Funny you should ask Coop...was just going to post up on the progress. I got started late morning cause I had to get some crock pot chili going. The axle is now assembled but still sitting on the ground. Everything went together fine. The axle housing gaskets measured .005 on one side and .006 on the other. I used both .005 gaskets so it's going to have .001 more preload than it had and the ring gear remains in the same position as it was. I don't have the tools to check pinion backlash but I could feel that there was a hair worth and everything spins like it should and with no binding. New seals in the axle tubes and hubs and put new brake shoes on while I had it apart. I noticed that the spring on one end of my e-brake cable was broken into a bunch of little springs and was no longer working. Guess I need to get another cable before I can get the drums on for good.
I had some afternoon stuff to do with the wife but I managed to get it assembled before we left.
Tomorrow, I want to pressure wash it and get a fresh coat of paint on it before sliding it under the car. I have some questions...I'll ask in the next post.

[Capt Kirk]

1) Are there any torque numbers for the axle housings, backing plates and torque tube?

2) I greased the wheel bearings but how's a person supposed to know how many grease gun pumps is required to fill the space between the axle seal and hub seal? Do I pump it up without the hub on till it starts showing at the end of the axle housing then add more after the hub is on.

3) How many pumps for the center and end driveline bearings?

4) I haven't searched here yet but I may have questions on adjusting the brakes. The eccentrics at the bottom and the cams at the top...I'm sure there's a way I could screw it up if I didn't research.

[Capt Kirk]

LOL...I just read a 3 month old post on adjusting the brakes. Yep, I did them wrong when I restored the car. Might explain why I have never been comfortable with the way the pedal felt.

[Mart]

I just managed to get mine together - I wrote a separate thread on it so's not to hijack. It was a first for me and I was surprised how time consuming it was.

Mart.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mart

I just managed to get mine together - I wrote a separate thread on it so's not to hijack. It was a first for me and I was surprised how time consuming it was.

Mart.

Mart, yeah...it came apart a lot faster.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Ya done good there, Kirk! Hope you realize I wuz jerkin' your chain.

OK, those two zerk fittings that you're trying to pump MORE grease into.........FORGET that they exist! That was such a bad idea that Ford finally quit putting them there. Pack those two hub bearings by hand, the old-fashioned way. Throw a little extra grease in the hub cavity if it makes ya feel good. If you pump grease into those zerks, it can go any direction it wants. It can fill the axle bells, and it can certainly fill your new brake shoes, etc. with grease. Good 'n snug on the torque for those bolts. Go back around the banjo bolts several times 'til they don't want to tighten (reasonably) any more. Do the safety-wire thing on the torque tube bolts. You're almost there! DD

[Mart]

I saw on the model A build guide to torque the banjo bolts to 35 ft lbs, is this the same for a V8? When I undid them they didn't seem very tight, in my mind they felt like a 35 ft lb bolt that had been in place since done up at the factory.

Mart.

[KGS]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

All of my parts came in yesterday including the axle...which looks amazing. I will be hitting it with dye penetrant this weekend before reassembly.

One of the questions will be with respect to lube. I plan (unless told otherwise) on using some red grease that's in a container that says for disk and drum wheel bearings for gear assembly. Thanks for all your help Barners!
Kirk

I wouldn't use the red grease for the rear wheel bearings. You need to use a long fiber grease
I use Sta-Lube SL3131 Drum Brake grease. High temp grease will break down and make a mess of the bearings.
Ken

[Capt Kirk]

It's ready to go back in...waiting on my e-brake cable.

[flatford8]

"I got started late morning cause I had to get some crock pot chili going."
Ya Ya Ya....axles,bearings,grease......SO WHAT !!!.......How was the CHILI ????.....Mark

[Capt Kirk]

LOL...my chili is always good!..but I seem to have a problem with making everybody happy with the level of spicy-ness. The wife thinks skim milk is spicy, the step daughter thinks ketchup is spicy and the step son can drink Tabasco without batting an eye. Myself, I like it when my hair starts sweating and the next day, the neighbors can hear me screaming from the bathroom.

Originally Posted by flatford8

"I got started late morning cause I had to get some crock pot chili going."
Ya Ya Ya....axles,bearings,grease......SO WHAT !!!.......How was the CHILI ????.....Mark

[Terry,OH]

Rear and front wheel bearings like the NAPA Sta-lube SL3131 grease. Pack the bearings by hand. Only need a few pumps of the gun on the drive shaft center bearing, lube the center bearing after the drive shaft is in place.

[JM 35 Sedan]

So how are you doing Capt? Is the rear back in and that Cab. on the road again? We need a blow by blow update .

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

So how are you doing Capt? Is the rear back in and that Cab. on the road again? We need a blow by blow update .

I think they had some torrential rains up Kirk's way the past couple of days. Surely though, he'll get that thing glued-in today and do a few donuts to get it all tested out. DD

[Capt Kirk]

Well, we did have some rains this last week and Saturday didn't look any better. We got a reprieve on Sunday. I used the good weather to get it stuffed back under the car by myself with the help of a jack and an old skate board. It went together well and I had to do some grinding to get my new drum retainers fitted to the proper clearance. I got the car setting back on the ground and tightened the lug nuts tight and axle nuts to Herculean torque...jacked it back up and let it run in gear with fresh lube. No noises out of the ordinary but noticed a slight wobble in my K-H left hand wheel. This was reported to me prior to the axle break and is unnoticeable during driving. I didn't have enough brake fluid in the shop to bleed the brakes and it was getting late so I'll save that and reinstalling the pad and floor mat till this next weekend. Got the new e-brake cable installed and spent some time looking under the car at the original 35 mechanical brake master shaft to find the magic hole(s) that allow a homemade rod to be connected between the master shaft and the e-brake cable...I'm not seeing it but this topic may be better in a new thread.
The car is on all four feet and drive-able. Bleed the brakes and put the mat down is all that I have left to do. Thanks for all the help and encouragement and I apologize if I asked too many questions, provided too many pictures and/or gave too much trivial information...like I did in this post.

[APDAVE]

Great Job, Glad your almost finished! Dave

[V8COOPMAN]

Have you bled the brakes, and most-importantly........squeeked the tires yet? DD

[Mr. Will]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

It was that way...I left it like that when I restored the car. I have an original e-brake handle that was intended for mechanical brakes and I have no way to go from the original handle to the cable so I put a big spring at the point of the cable V just to hold it up. I didn't want that spring to apply brake pressure so I left them disconnected in the drums. Once I figure out how to go from the e brake lever to the cable, I'll hook them back up. At least I have all the cable parts where they belong until I can get the rest figured out.

When you get ready to hook up your hand brake let me know an I can guide you through the process. I just did it on my 36 Cabriolet using the mechanical brake actuator, cutting off the lower arms that use to operate the front brakes as well as the end that attached to the brake pedal. Then used the upper attachment for the rear brake rods cutting one of the rods down for the emergency brake and it works perfect.

[Capt Kirk]

Thanks Mr. Will. I have the cross shaft, the brake lever and the slotted rod that connects the two. I saw a sketch of the original brake rod layout where the rear rods V'd through the cross member from the top center cross shaft point. I couldn't get my fat head up high enough to see that there's a clear-shot directly rearward through the cross member. The car is put to bed for winter so I'll wait till it warms up before I tackle this project. I am thinking about sending in my 97 and helmet in for a rebuild over the winter though.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Will

When you get ready to hook up your hand brake let me know an I can guide you through the process. I just did it on my 36 Cabriolet using the mechanical brake actuator, cutting off the lower arms that use to operate the front brakes as well as the end that attached to the brake pedal. Then used the upper attachment for the rear brake rods cutting one of the rods down for the emergency brake and it works perfect.

Just wondering if it was really necessary to cut those arms off the mechanical brake cross shaft mechanism to hook up your ebrake system?
When I put hydraulic brakes on a 35, I used Richard Lacy's master cylinder mounting bracket that utilized the stock cross shaft to actuate the MC using the stock brake/clutch pedal assembly. His ebrake hookup was a rather simplified cable that passed through the center of X member in a section of steel tubing, and connected the ebrake lever directly to the ebrake cable that loops around to both rear backing plates, and used the same '39 curved sheet metal bracket like you show in your 3rd picture. Basically a simplified system that utilized stock components requiring no modificatons.

[Mr. Will]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Just wondering if it was really necessary to cut those arms off the mechanical brake cross shaft mechanism to hook up your ebrake system?
When I put hydraulic brakes on a 35, I used Richard Lacy's master cylinder mounting bracket that utilized the stock cross shaft to actuate the MC using the stock brake/clutch pedal assembly. His ebrake hookup was a rather simplified cable that passed through the center of X member in a section of steel tubing, and connected the ebrake lever directly to the ebrake cable that loops around to both rear backing plates, and used the same '39 curved sheet metal bracket like you show in your 3rd picture. Basically a simplified system that utilized stock components requiring no modificatons.

John,
It was not necessary to cut off the arms but I thought it made a cleaner job of it so I cut them off. I was going to make a tube with a cable run through it but discovered I could cut one of the one of the old mechanical brake rods down and use it and it looks like it could have been that way from Ford.