Weld and grind roller tracks

[Curtis in MA]

I welded up my rear roller tracks and need to grind them flat. What do I use? A straight file?

[Roger V]

I did that once and used a die grinder with a small stone then finished up with a file. Took forever. Next time I removed the tracks, welded them, and then did a much better job on a mini-milling machine.

[Steve Plucker]

Putting reproductions in in place of the originals...Probably softer metal???

Pluck

[burner31]

Removed and replaced on mine, not that hard or pricey.
No problems yet, been one year and 4K miles

[daren007]

Replace them. Not worth the hassle to repair.

[160B]

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Originally Posted by Curtis in MA

I welded up my rear roller tracks and need to grind them flat. What do I use? A straight file?

Scribe a cut off line.
I used a Dremel rotary with a thin cut off wheel, takes a steady hand cut slow and keep the RPM mid range to help keep a straight line, be patient, you will break a few cut off wheels but I was very pleased with the result.

[whirnot]

I just finished mine using a 4 1/2 grinder with a cutoff wheel. Marked the cut line and cut off the excess weld to near the mark. Then used the cutoff wheel like a grinder and carefully ground to where I wanted it, measuring often. Worked fine. The wheel makes a nice flat grinder.

[Drive Shaft Dave]

It is more of a hassle to replace them , weld then file or use die grinder.

[Ruth]

Hope your grinding them to the correct measurement or it is not going to do you much good.

[Purdy Swoft]

I used a small thin cut off wheel on mine . Replacing the brake tracks doesn't automatically center the brakes , I would probably have to go back and either grind or weld and grind the new tracks to center , I think that it is easier to weld and grind the original tracks in place .

[larrys40]

Bill, Dave, purdy ,
I agree entirely it is much quicker, less expensive , and easier to weld and surface them Than to replace them.
You can use a mill or the 4 1/2 inch die grind cutoff wheel does well to. I have a gauge I use that fits from the pins to the correct stock track surface dimensions to check the location. Once to the correct dimension and shoes are arced and installed you can check with a brake centering gauge.

You must be careful using the back edge of the cutoff wheel but it can be done for those who don’t have fancier equipment. As always use proper eye protection
I do a lot of brake work and am usually repairing tracks every week.
Larry shepard

[Curtis in MA]

Because I left the cams in place I can't get a 4 1/5" angle grinder on it. I will try the cut-off wheel.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Hope your grinding them to the correct measurement or it is not going to do you much good.

This is very true, ...AND if you go by the measurement in Les Andrew's book, it is incorrect when compared to the Ford print. When you use the centering tool to check on the shoes being in the proper location, this becomes very evident.

[Curtis in MA]

The book says 1". What is correct?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

.

Originally Posted by Curtis in MA

Because I left the cams in place I can't get a 4 1/5" angle grinder on it. I will try the cut-off wheel.

Asking me what the correct measurement is, and using a cut-off wheel to reshape these is sending you down the wrong road IMHO.


The ONLY way to do them correctly if you have welded them is to have a fixture that locates the housing plate in a Mill where the weld can be machined parallel with the mounting bolt holes. The pins riding on those tracks must travel parallel pushing the shoe outward with less than 0.001" deviation out of parallel. Can you hold that kind of tolerance with a grinding wheel? If not, the pin will cause the shoe to push upwards or downward during application which then causes it to be out of centerline with the drum. If the shoes are out of centerline with the drum, you will quickly lose friction in lining to drum contact due to not all parts of the shoe contacting the drum. Ford designed his brakes where the rear brakes carried the higher percentage of braking. Again, I am not trying to be mean or belittle you as many others fall into this same scenario, but times have changed and brakes need to function at 100% to be safe. This is not an area to cut corners or MacGuyver stuff.

[whirnot]

I too used a guage. A 1 inch steel tried square blade works perfectly. For the fronts, I made a guage out of a wood strip. I never removed the tracks. Some say after building these up correctly, a centering guage is not needed, but after reading Brent's comments, I think I will check them.

[Curtis in MA]

I'll probably get in trouble for this but I'm not a break guy.
If you center or arch the shoes perfectly, then put the drum on and turn the adjustment wedge even one click, don't you change everything?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Curtis in MA

I'll probably get in trouble for this but I'm not a break guy.
If you center or arch the shoes perfectly, then put the drum on and turn the adjustment wedge even one click, don't you change everything?

Curtis, I understand what you are saying however you probably need to take a moment and study how the system works. In theory, you have a 360° round surface of the brake drums. When applied, the brake shoes do not contact all 360° of the drum. For the sake of this discussion, let just assume the rear shoes touch from the 10:00 o'clock over to the 2:00 o'clock position of the drum, ...and from the 4:00 over to the 8:00 position. Theoretically, the centerline of the shoes needs to be at the centerline of the drum at 12:00 & 6:00 position. When the brakes are actuated, the centerline of the shoes (which are at the 6:00 & 12:00 position) push directly towards the drum, and the tracks cause it to go in a straight line towards the drum. Now if the tracks are worn or mis-shaped, it allows the shoe to engage the drum off-center. This allows one end of the shoe to contact the drum with more pressure than the other end, ...which decreases the braking friction. Now to complicate the matter, if the axle housing race is worn, this allows the brake drum to be higher than in the correct centerline of the shoes. Let's just assume that the hub bearing and the housing race is collectively worn just 0.020", that means the bottom shoes engages quicker (by 0.020" of travel) and so more friction happens on the lower shoe and the upper shoe has little to no friction pressure. I trust this is helping you understand why without proper tooling and methods that ensure everything is within proper specs, it is only by luck that you will have quality brakes on a Model-A like they were originally.

[100IH]

For first timers, I would suggest this. If you can find a rear axle housing, set it on the floor small end up. Install a rear backing plate springs and shoes. Operate the adjuster and watch the action. Actuate the wedge and watch the action. See how the track and wedge and springs control vertical movement while being applied. Learn the names as well. There's more than what meets the eye at first glance. The system does work but it is not forgiving.

[100IH]

Consider this: the system can be its own training aid if approached one layer at a time. It'sreally a slow process of getting to visualize all aspects of force and movement.

[woodiewagon46]

I read all the posts about using a cut off wheel and would like to caution using one for grinding. Before I retired one of the shop guys had a cut off wheel disintegrate and hit him in his face and needed 7 stitches. When we told our supplier what happened, he sent a rep in to talk to us about cut off wheel use. He told us that a cut off wheel, no matter what the size, is designed for one purpose, cutting only and not rated for side loading and grinding. I don't use one for grinding anymore. Be careful if you do and be sure to use a face shield.

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by Curtis in MA

Because I left the cams in place I can't get a 4 1/5" angle grinder on it. I will try the cut-off wheel.

Curtis
No matter what you do the cams must be removed. I do all rebuilding of the tracks with camshafts and bushings removed. You must replace worn camshaft bushings and camshafts. Cams must not be worn and must slide freely in the camshaft.

The preferred method is to have it fixtured and mill it. I only included the cutoff wheel method as it will work for those who don’t have the availability or luxury if a mill and ability to do it that way. The tracks must be perfectly straight to be most effective and you will still need to ensure the shoes are centered.

All of this with proper restoration is vital to well performing brake system.
When done correctly and with good molded lining,cast iron drums, and complete mechanical restoration, brake setup and adjustment the Model A can truly stop extremely well.

[redmodelt]

The brakes are anchored at one end, which except for adjusting does not move. Theoretical, when you adjust the brakes, you are moving the pivot/anchored end only. When the lever is pulled forward, the shoe(s) are swinging from that point and as they move out at the cam end, more and more shoe comes in contact with the drum till they make full contact with the drum.

[daren007]

If you are that far into the system I do not see how replacing the tracks are more work. In the end you have tracks that have not been Rube Goldberg'd

[Jeff/Illinois]

I've read these are good quality, from Bratton's. Made to Ford prints and properly heat treated may be another option for you.

https://www.brattons.com/rear-brake-...track-kit.html

[redmodelt]

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Woven lining.

[ericr]

In one of the Service Letters, dealers seeking to secure this part with the ears for replacement and the Branch refused, saying they needed to buy the entire backing place since this part received some fine-tuning in the process, undoubtedly to achieve close tolerances with the shoes.


Hence I wonder where our rebuild efforts end up, though I know we have to correct the divot that we see on the ears.

[Curtis in MA]

When the brakes are at rest, the head of the roller pin rests on the track. When the brakes are activated the pin moves outward. How far does it move? 1/8 inch?
.125

[whirnot]

Since there are over 250 pieces to a model A brake system, not including bolts and cotter pins, this might be a lengthy discussion...........

[redmodelt]

Correct, there is more to getting good brakes then just welding up the divots on the tracks.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by daren007

If you are that far into the system I do not see how replacing the tracks are more work. In the end you have tracks that have not been Rube Goldberg'd

Read post number 27 . Ford never offered the brake tracks separately . A person had to buy the backing plates with the tracks in place . Ford had to make final adjustments on the tracks and knew that the common man wouldn't have the necessary equipment or ability to make the final adjustments . The measurements that are given by some are only a starting point and usually will need adjustment to center the shoes . If the shoes aren't pretty close to centered , the drums won't have the necessary clearance for installation . Brattons sells good hardened brake tracks . Installation of brake tracks alone is no guarantee that the brakes will be centered . A person would be very lucky if the installation of new tracks would be close enough to install the drums without final adjustments of the tracks . Centering the shoes within the drums is pretty much necessary for decent brakes or the ability to install the drums . Being as these adjustments are mostly necessary after the installation of new tracks , I find it easier to build up the original tracks in place and grind for the final adjustments This avoids the necessity of removing and replacing the rivets thast holds the tracks in place. Chiseling or drilling out the rivets will usually distort the rivet holes and effect the final placement of the tracks .

[daren007]

I understand what you are saying however if you distort the holes removing rivets you are doing something wrong. Drill off the heads or tails and punch out the rivet. Do not drive the new rivets as the parts can move rather upset them with a hydraulic press. You might need to use some heat. I have found track kits with excellent fitting parts as well as rivets but then with too small diameter rivets. I have replaced all four wheel tracks as well as everything else that was worn. I have excellent brakes that will lock up on loose dirt or gravel. By the way I have original style drum and linings

[Purdy Swoft]

I also use original woven lining and good used steel drums on some of my model A's . I have excellent brakes that will lock up all four wheels on gravel or pavement . There are other things besides the rivet holes that can cause problems with centering the shoes . It is a known fact that Ford knew that installation of new tracks without fine tuning wouldn't solve the problem, that's why Ford didn't offer tracks alone . My experience is that I have installed new tracks and had to fine tune the tracks before the drums would clear . A person may get lucky and get by with installing tracks alone without fine tuning . In some cases there can be enough wear in the drums to get the necessary clearance . In such cases a person may have stopping power at first but after the worn drums get hot and expand the brakes won't be very good . There is a lot more to good brakes than centering of the shoes . Without centering of the shoes the brakes can't be all that good . This is just my REAL world hands on experience , not something that I just can't understand !!!

[daren007]

If you drive the rivets the tracks can move.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by daren007

I understand what you are saying however if you distort the holes removing rivets you are doing something wrong. Drill off the heads or tails and punch out the rivet. Do not drive the new rivets as the parts can move rather upset them with a hydraulic press. You might need to use some heat. I have found track kits with excellent fitting parts as well as rivets but then with too small diameter rivets. I have replaced all four wheel tracks as well as everything else that was worn. I have excellent brakes that will lock up on loose dirt or gravel. By the way I have original style drum and linings

What you are saying has much merit ...AND most hobbyists do not have the proper equipment to do this job correctly. It is almost imperative to have a rivet gun to set the rivets correctly. Using heat or a Chinese air hammer just does not do the job correctly. Also, when you use an alignment fixture to position the tracks, it eliminates the need to tune. In reality, tuning is a bandaid for compensating for something else that is incorrect.

[Bob C]

Brent, do you have a picture of the track alignment fixture?

[Steve Plucker]

I would be interested to in the track alignment fixture because I just remeoved all my worn tracks to install new ones.

Pluck

[daren007]

Set the rivets with a hydraulic press. The tracks should not move. If the tracks are exact direct replacements I do not see a need for some alignment tool or fixture.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

While I can show you an alignment fixture, it really does no good as it won't give you the measurement which come from the housing assembly print. This is available at Benson. Additionally, if the track's holes, and the housing holes are not a reamed fit to the same exact measurement of the rivet, then how do you know they are located properly without some type of fixture? While hydraulically setting a rivet that is designed to be bucked appears to do the job, I am not sure if it actually swells the rivet internally to fit the bore differences, -or whether it is just mechanically clamping the plate on much like a nut & bolt will. My initial instinct is hydraulically tightening the rivet does not correctly buck the rivet.

I guess the bottom line in this entire thread is several have pointed out the most correct way, and even given logic/wisdom/advice as to 'why' on those approved methods of the manufacturer, ...and ultimately you are the one that needs to determine what is best for you. There was a time when I would debate someone who was perceived as taking shortcuts however what I have learned is there are many facets of Model-A repair or restoration that used to be deemed correct over the years until research was done to learn the proper specifications and procedures. Folks are only going to believe what seems believable to them anyway, so why bother? Another such area might be the use of lead based babbitt vs. tin based. Many might argue they have successfully used lead-based without a problem but experience has given us wisdom, and just as in this discussion I have chosen to step back and let folks do as they wish as it is not worth the effort for me trying to convince someone differently. Best wishes in whatever method you choose to do.

[KR500]

As I have seen and heard the methods of repairing the roller track by welding, how do you guarantee at least a case hardening of the track. Soft welds will undoubtedly wear quickly. Brattons track kits advertise case hardened tracks. Using a Barrett or other concentricity checking fixture I have found most shoes not very well centered. The Ammco, Van Norman, or other shoe arcing machines don't necessarily arc the lining in reference the two end holes on the shoe web. One Ammco shoe clamp(there are three) has a fixed anchor set up. I believe a clamp which can guarantee that the two end shoe web holes are centered is needed to properly arc the lining. If not the shoe lining is not on the same centerline as the holes.

[Bob C]

Thanks Brent for your insight. I see from the print that the magic number is
4.619-4.624. I don't have a DRO on the mill but I could use the co-ax indicator to find
the center of the backing plate and then go from there.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

While I can show you an alignment fixture, it really does no good as it won't give you the measurement which come from the housing assembly print. This is available at Benson. Additionally, if the track's holes, and the housing holes are not a reamed fit to the same exact measurement of the rivet, then how do you know they are located properly without some type of fixture? While hydraulically setting a rivet that is designed to be bucked appears to do the job, I am not sure if it actually swells the rivet internally to fit the bore differences, -or whether it is just mechanically clamping the plate on much like a nut & bolt will. My initial instinct is hydraulically tightening the rivet does not correctly buck the rivet.

I guess the bottom line in this entire thread is several have pointed out the most correct way, and even given logic/wisdom/advice as to 'why' on those approved methods of the manufacturer, ...and ultimately you are the one that needs to determine what is best for you. There was a time when I would debate someone who was perceived as taking shortcuts however what I have learned is there are many facets of Model-A repair or restoration that used to be deemed correct over the years until research was done to learn the proper specifications and procedures. Folks are only going to believe what seems believable to them anyway, so why bother? Another such area might be the use of lead based babbitt vs. tin based. Many might argue they have successfully used lead-based without a problem but experience has given us wisdom, and just as in this discussion I have chosen to step back and let folks do as they wish as it is not worth the effort for me trying to convince someone differently. Best wishes in whatever method you choose to do.

interesting analysis. if you had to guess, given that speed in production was critical to this Company, don't you think there was some simple jig that held the ear plate in position vis a vis the upper brake shoe wedge holder?


To crank these backing plates out speedily, it could not have been a complex process.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Thanks Brent for your insight. I see from the print that the magic number is
4.619-4.624. I don't have a DRO on the mill but I could use the co-ax indicator to find
the center of the backing plate and then go from there.

There you go. It is never difficult (-DRO or not) when you have the measurement for you. Many quality pieces were manufactured way before a digital readout ever became available.

Originally Posted by ericr

interesting analysis. if you had to guess, given that speed in production was critical to this Company, don't you think there was some simple jig that held the ear plate in position vis a vis the upper brake shoe wedge holder?


To crank these backing plates out speedily, it could not have been a complex process.

Eric, labor was cheap back then, and it was different than today however you are correct in that all of the operations were likely set-up on one machine to be efficient. As Bob quoted the measurement (-I did not verify it but would assume he is corrrect) above, finding the correct numbers is not that hard, but they are necessary to do the task correctly.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by daren007

Set the rivets with a hydraulic press. The tracks should not move. If the tracks are exact direct replacements I do not see a need for some alignment tool or fixture.

But honestly, when was the last time we saw a repro parts an "exact direct replacements".

[whirnot]

Interesting, almost all the opinions in this thread are based on either a decent, or in some cases an extensive knowledge of this system. I stumbled on a YouTube video last night of a Master Model A restorer giving a seminar on rebuilding brakes. It is amazing that some folks with such little knowledge can profess to be experts. The guy didn't even know the names or the parts!

[daren007]

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Heat the rivet then press. By driving you can shift the tracks.

[aermotor]

All said and done, what is the big deal of all these precision dimensions after a couple hundred miles?


John

[Purdy Swoft]

After the brakes wear in a bit it will be time to tighten and adjust the adjusting wedge . Model A brakes are not perfect , mostly because they aren't full floating but work about as well as drum brakes could be expected to work when properly set up and adjusted .

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by aermotor

All said and done, what is the big deal of all these precision dimensions after a couple hundred miles?

John, a valid argument can be made that nothing would change if proper parts are used. So often, cheap replacement parts which are manufactured from poor-quality metals give a bad reputation, but can you name any hard-parts that were worn severely out of tolerance after a few hundred miles, --or even a few thousand miles? I cannot think of any but maybe I am not thinking correctly.


.

[whirnot]

At the risk of beating this thing to death a couple more thoughts. As everyone agrees the last step is centering the shoes. If you put in new rails and they show to be too low, did you gain anything over welding and grinding? They would still have to be built up?
Or another thought, if the rails are too high they will prevent the shoes from making circumferential contact. But if they are a couple thousandths low, it would seem that they would float up to self center. There is nothing keeping them from doing so.

[Jim M]

Wow what a wealth of opinions. I have a 29 std roadster I have been working on for a couple of years. Last year had a cracked axle so I took everything off up to the engine. Replaced the pressure plate and clutch disk, rebuilt transmission, Ujoint and rear end. Took rear spring apart, sandblasted and painted it, used graphite paint between leaves. Got new cast iron drums and new shoes. Put all back together and everything EXCEPT the brakes worked like a champ. I have been tweeking, adjusting, pulling apart and re-assembling for over a month now and still can't get them working the way I think the should. Car on jack stands as I write this and yesterday went to adjust the right rear and it turns forward for about 1/4 revolution it then hits something and comes to a complete stop. Can revolve it backwards many turns and everything is fine but the minute I spin it forward it revolves a short distance then the dastardly "clunk" and abrupt stop. Think I am going to quite working on it for the holidays and maybe Santa will leave me a note under the tree with the solution!!!!....lol. They are so much fun to work on most of the time but this has me pulling out what hair I have. Don't know if anyone else has ever had this problem but feel better just spouting off. Merry Christmas to all!

[daveymc29]

You've all convinced me. Going to stick with hydraulics. I can't weld and don't own a milling machine. Too many places to have failure on such an important function.

[TerryO]

At least with mechanical brakes you don't have to worry about master cylinders, wheel cylinders, and brake lines leaking...


TerryO

[redmodelt]

WE were talking about this subject at the shop today, my question is; Were Model A brakes and suspension really designed for 60/40 braking? Was having the front brakes come on first a Model A thing or was that back dated from the V8 era? Seems to me they were made for the rears to come on first. Wouldn't that put a lot more force on the flywheel housing then what it was meant for?

[daveymc29]

Do any modern cars or trucks use Mechanical Brakes? Just curious.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Do any modern cars or trucks use Mechanical Brakes? Just curious.

Interesting question, ...but not sure how relevant but I'll play along. While we're at it, include these questions;

Does any modern car or truck use gravity feed fuel delivery?

Does any modern car or truck use a non-synchronized transmission?

Does any modern car or truck use one tailight?

Does any modern truck or car use an updraft carburetor?

Does any modern car or truck use a wooden floorboard?


I can keep going for quite a while, but I really don't see the destination. Maybe I am missing something??

[daren007]

There really is no reason for hydraulic brakes..