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Old 06-10-2016, 09:16 AM   #1
dixiedelux
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Default Chatter Rod Removal

Can someone discuss the process of removing the chatter rod frame attachment? Has any one pulled the block forward enough to clear the rod going through the block attachment hole?
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

Moving the engine forward is not a viable solution in my opinion. You still have to get that special bolt out. You might as well start there. I made the tool with the square fitment. I put two flats on the sides of the tool's shaft. Good downward pressure, combined with a crescent wrench for torque, made it an easy job.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

Why do you want to remove them? Their purpose is to prevent the engine from moving forward when power is applied to the rear end. Ford called them "engine stay rods" for a reason.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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Originally Posted by deuce_roadster View Post
Why do you want to remove them?

I think he is trying to remove the engine from the frame. And he wants to know if he can pull the engine without removing the engine stay rods.

I say NO. Don't try and remove the engine by sliding them over these rods. Remove the engine stay rods (chatter rods) before pulling the engine. That means you have to pull the floor boards to access the tops of the anti chatter rod bolts. As stated above, the enthusiast can make his own square-head tool to remove the rods. A good quality bolt can be ground down to make the correct size square head tool for removal.

Last edited by Pomeroy41144; 06-10-2016 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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Originally Posted by Pomeroy41144 View Post
I think he is trying to remove the engine from the frame. And he wants to know if he can pull the engine without removing the engine stay rods.

I say NO. Don't try and remove the engine by sliding them over these rods. Remove the engine stay (chatter rods) rods before pulling the engine. That means you have to pull the floor boards to access the tops of the anti chatter rod bolts. As stated, the enthusiast can make his own square-head tool to remove the rods. A good quality bolt can be ground down to make the correct size square head tool for removal.
The floor boards? I have the transmission access panel off! I (we) are at a disadvantage because my car is in my shop 4 miles from my home. I have no computer there, so I can't go look at car to respond accurately. But from yesterday's memory here is the description of what I have: Mine looks like the rod had been flattened and a pin or stud with no head had been inserted through the flattened part and into the frame rail, but not through. At the top, the pin is flush with the flattened part of the rod.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:22 AM   #6
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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DD
That "pin" you refer to is a short carriage bolt with a nut up inside the frame cross member.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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Originally Posted by cmbrucew View Post
DD
That "pin" you refer to is a short carriage bolt with a nut up inside the frame cross member.
Bruce
Yes, that sounds right. Most guys are saying it is accessed from the top with a 5/16 square socket, of some fabrication. The hole I am feeling, from the bottom, of the frame cross member is tiny; it seems to my feel about an eighth. I only have enough room for my thumb to in there to feel the hole. There is another plate below the hole, about the distance of the thickness of my thumb preventing direct access. I am trying to find the early ford hardware man's site to look at the hardware. Ray Nawisz?
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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Old 06-10-2016, 11:41 AM   #9
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

See the first photo in the first post of the link provided. That is what I have found on my Fords. The "cup" shaped end is threaded and the short carriage bolt (with square hole in top) threads into that. There is no cage nut attached to the frame, the chatter rod end is threaded to take the bolt. You may want to try a "Chatter Rod" search on this forum. There are dozens of previous threads concerning this matter.


http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...t=Chatter+Rods
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by dixiedelux View Post
The floor boards? I have the transmission access panel off! I (we) are at a disadvantage because my car is in my shop 4 miles from my home. I have no computer there, so I can't go look at car to respond accurately. But from yesterday's memory here is the description of what I have: Mine looks like the rod had been flattened and a pin or stud with no head had been inserted through the flattened part and into the frame rail, but not through. At the top, the pin is flush with the flattened part of the rod.
I've answered this on the Ford Club site I thought quite thoroughly.
For others, here we go again: If you don't remove the rods, you will bend them while removing the engine. That's something you want to avoid.
The special bolts that fasten the rods to the frame require a 5/16" square head drive to remove. You can make one out of a hex key (aka: allen wrench).
You may want to apply a little heat to the rod at the area of the threads.

It may help you "picture" what you are attempting to remove: It is a counter-sunk flat head bolt. The frame is counter-sunk to accept the bolt head. The female threads are integral of the rod(s).
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Last edited by Kube; 06-10-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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Originally Posted by Kube View Post
I've answered this on the Ford Club site I thought quite thoroughly.
For others, here we go again: If you don't remove the rods, you will bend them while removing the engine. That's something you want to avoid.
The special bolts that fasten the rods to the frame require a 5/16" square head drive to remove. You can make one out of a hex key (aka: allen wrench).
You may want to apply a little heat to the rod at the area of the threads.

It may help you "picture" what you are attempting to remove: It is a counter-sunk flat head bolt. The frame is counter-sunk to accept the bolt head. The female threads are integral of the rod(s).
Thanks Kube! My imagination is having a hard time with the visualization. Use your wisdom and knowledge and tell me if yesterdays recollection of the problem is accurate. Again, I apologize that I cannot go out and access car to look again.
Mine looks like the rod had been flattened and a pin or stud with no head had been inserted through the flattened part and into the frame rail, but not through. At the top, the pin is flush with the flattened part of the rod.

Is access gained from top or bottom?
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

If the square hole in the counter sunk bolt gets booged up. Weld a nut to the top of it . After the weld cools off they usually unscrew. Then replace the bolt. Also before you put it back together chase all the threads and use some neversieze so the next guy to take it apart has a easier job
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by dixiedelux View Post

Is access gained from top or bottom?

Access to the top of the bolt is from the TOP.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:57 PM   #14
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

This is for a 41 with 59 engine.
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Old 06-10-2016, 01:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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This is for a 41 with 59 engine.
Bruce
That bolt used in 1941 was a much better design than the '40 type. Mush easier to remove.
Here's a photo of the 40...
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Old 06-10-2016, 01:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

Here is a Photo of a properly installed "Anti Chatter Rod" from below.

The second photo is a 1937 Ford chatter rod, special flathead square hole bolt, washer and custom made tool.

Third photo shows the two chatter rod holes on top of the frame. If you have the trans cover off, then they are accessible. The left chatter rod hole can be seen just left of the clutch spring. The right chatter rod hole can be seen just above the dog ear of the rear trans mount (it is counter sunk and appears as a dish-shaped hole).

You can access the chatter rod bolts from the top.

If you have something different, then you should post photos so the members can help you.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

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Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
Here is a Photo of a properly installed "Anti Chatter Rod" from below.

The second photo is a 1937 Ford chatter rod, special flathead square hole bolt, washer and custom made tool.

Third photo shows the two chatter rod holes on top of the frame. If you have the trans cover off, then they are accessible. The left chatter rod hole can be seen just left of the clutch spring. The right chatter rod hole can be seen just above the dog ear of the rear trans mount (it is counter sunk and appears as a dish-shaped hole).

You can access the chatter rod bolts from the top.

If you have something different, then you should post photos so the members can help you.
Those are very good illustrations, Tony. Let me preface my situation. My 40 has a top loader tranny out of an earlier ford, 39 I hope. The previous owner told me he put in a new front floor. I have the tranny inspection plate, along with the toe boards removed. The rod attachment is a fingers length outside of the transmission inspection plate opening. To make it accessible, some floor board needs removed. To do that welds need to be eliminated. Did the PO put in the wrong floor system in? I don't know! I have the engine out now. And it was an ordeal I never want to do again! And Fords engine stay rods can be shoved up Henry's ass!
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dixiedelux View Post
Those are very good illustrations, Tony. Let me preface my situation. My 40 has a top loader tranny out of an earlier ford, 39 I hope. The previous owner told me he put in a new front floor. I have the tranny inspection plate, along with the toe boards removed. The rod attachment is a fingers length outside of the transmission inspection plate opening. To make it accessible, some floor board needs removed. To do that welds need to be eliminated. Did the PO put in the wrong floor system in? I don't know! I have the engine out now. And it was an ordeal I never want to do again! And Fords engine stay rods can be shoved up Henry's ass!
I don't think it proper to blame Henry. Perhaps the guy that did a poopy job patching in the floors but not Henry.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

If you didn't remove the rods, you will have the same issues getting the engine back in. I would cut a hole above the bolts to remove the stay rods. You can deal with the holes when you're done.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:53 PM   #20
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I don't think it proper to blame Henry. Perhaps the guy that did a poopy job patching in the floors but not Henry.
How much tolerance do you think Hank allowed for the rod to slide through the attachment on the block. From my estimation it is minuscule. From today's experience, I imagine I would have to drive the rods back through the attachment. What is your experience during re installation? My 40 is dry and now rust free. The PO changed out the front floor and trunk floors. It is obvious he half-assed the tool kit area. The front floor looks OK to me, but I fear not correct. He put it in to accommodate the transmission inspection plate he used, or visa versa. Do some of the earlier years use a front floor/inspection panel that would forbid access of 40 frame to rod attachment? I will try to get some pics soon, of the illustrative quality that Tony provided for me earlier. I am relieved to know that on my 46, Henry alleviated his previous piss poor engineering, and I won't have to repeat today's experience.

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Old 06-10-2016, 09:10 PM   #21
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

I'll confess I didn't read everyone response to this...

Yea, you might bend them if you don't remove the front sheet-metal.. etc, well most likely. To me it was at least 2"+ to clear.

If they bend... bend them back. Its a tension rod, there is no lateral tension imposed in it's function. Getting it all back together might be fun too.

You might be lucky and remove them, that short plug has a square lug. I actually used a map torch and a 1920's square window crank to get them out. Go figure something for the 20s fit.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:13 PM   #22
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And it was an ordeal I never want to do again! And Fords engine stay rods can be shoved up Henry's ass!
You obviously don't understand the importance of "chatter" rods.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:36 PM   #23
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You obviously don't understand the importance of "chatter" rods.
He will if he gets it back together and drives it without them. Sounds more like all the problems he has encountered were due to the floor board installation. Stock side shift or a earlier floor shift box makes no difference on removing or installing the chatter rods. The biggest challenge on removing them if they have been in place since new is getting the flathead bolt out.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

I remember many years (1970) ago when I removed the original 40 engine I did not have to remove the engine steady rods as there was sufficient clearance with the radiator removed. Yes, I bent them a little, but it was easy to straighten them out. You could use increasingly largest dia. drill bits and just drill out the bolt tap drill size, pins or whatever you have. Make sure you reinstall them. I even used them when I installed the current 8BA. Just made them longer and welded ears onto the Merc. stamped steel bellhousing. Plus, you could also replace them with this aftermarket piece. The rear hook fits around the "X" member.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:53 PM   #25
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Re: Chatter Rod Removal
I'll confess I didn't read everyone response to this...


Above is the introductory of your post, Tinker. I suggest you go back and read the entire post in chronological order if you want to make a productive contribution to my thread. It would probably take you as long as it took for you to compose your rambling, incoherent reply!
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:14 PM   #26
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Re: Chatter Rod Removal
I'll confess I didn't read everyone response to this...


Above is the introductory of your post, Tinker. I suggest you go back and read the entire post in chronological order if you want to make a productive contribution to my thread. It would probably take you as long as it took for you to compose your rambling, incoherent reply!

Ya I sense you have been on facebook alot. what i said has merit if you read it.

Take it how you will.... but you asked!

I apologize for my rambling....................
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixiedelux View Post
How much tolerance do you think Hank allowed for the rod to slide through the attachment on the block. From my estimation it is minuscule. From today's experience, I imagine I would have to drive the rods back through the attachment. What is your experience during re installation? My 40 is dry and now rust free. The PO changed out the front floor and trunk floors. It is obvious he half-assed the tool kit area. The front floor looks OK to me, but I fear not correct. He put it in to accommodate the transmission inspection plate he used, or visa versa. Do some of the earlier years use a front floor/inspection panel that would forbid access of 40 frame to rod attachment? I will try to get some pics soon, of the illustrative quality that Tony provided for me earlier. I am relieved to know that on my 46, Henry alleviated his previous piss poor engineering, and I won't have to repeat today's experience.

Last edited by Tinker; 06-10-2016 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:30 AM   #27
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Default Re: Chatter Rod Removal

I've had good success removing the special bolts that hold these rods to the frame by modifying the end of short ratchet extension so it fits properly into the square tapered hole in the bolt head and then using a hand held impact driver to get that bolt to start backing out. Prior to doing the above, apply a good penitrating oil several times and let that work into those threads for 2-3 days. If it won't start backing out doing the above, I start using heat and repeat impacting with the hand held impact driver. I don't recommend using an air/electric impact wrench because it will #*$ up the square drive in the head of the bolt. Do whatever is necessary to gain proper access to the top of that bolt.
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:22 PM   #28
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My 40 has a top loader tranny out of an earlier ford, 39 I hope.!
There should be a number on the transmission that will tell you what year your trans is (39 tower is double detent). The number is located just above the inspection plate on the top of the trans where the trans attaches to the bell housing. Record that number and look it up in the ref books or on Mac Van Pelt's page and you will discover the approximate date (month) that the trans case was cast and assembled.
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