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Old 05-01-2015, 07:55 PM   #61
dixiedelux
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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Back to the engine mods: the truck and Merc heads are low compression, The 8BA is next and the EAB is the heighest CR stock head. This milled for .05-" piston to head clearance cam increase you CR about 1 point. What you must realize is: the factory advertized CR is way off (7.2) in all the years I've been doing this, I've never seen them any where near this.
Thanks for the help Ron, I may need that info later. This Merc is a fresh rebuild. My main objective is to get my 40 Mobile again. Initially, with the complete set-up provided to me from builder/seller. The swithch back to Merc manifold, rochester, and Bubby diz will be on the to-do agenda. I hope I never have to take the head off!
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:00 PM   #62
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

I just got done putting a 1953 merc motor in my 36 pickup. Here locally I tried to get my flywheel redrilled to 59A 10" long PP and they would not touch it due to liability (SFI cetification) all Speedway FW are SFI cert. So I gave up and bought a new FW. This may not be true in all areas with different machine shops 36fordguy
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:08 PM   #63
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

I used the castiron truck bell housing. When I tried to install my 12V starter with the late model bendix spring it would not clear the FF, the bendix spring assembly was to big so I went back to the old style starter assembly. This might work with the pressed steel housing. 36forguy
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:23 PM   #64
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

On cam choice - I upgraded from a 59A engine to the 1953 merc - Mainly because I had a very radical cam (Howard M14) this cam was difficult to drive around at low speed ( it idled at 1000 rpm) So I'm going with the stock 53 merc cam. Ron has lots of experience with different cams and their driveability. 36fordguy
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:32 PM   #65
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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I just got done putting a 1953 merc motor in my 36 pickup. Here locally I tried to get my flywheel redrilled to 59A 10" long PP and they would not touch it due to liability (SFI cetification) all Speedway FW are SFI cert. So I gave up and bought a new FW. This may not be true in all areas with different machine shops 36fordguy
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I used the castiron truck bell housing. When I tried to install my 12V starter with the late model bendix spring it would not clear the FF, the bendix spring assembly was to big so I went back to the old style starter assembly. This might work with the pressed steel housing. 36forguy
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On cam choice - I upgraded from a 59A engine to the 1953 merc - Mainly because I had a very radical cam (Howard M14) this cam was difficult to drive around at low speed ( it idled at 1000 rpm) So I'm going with the stock 53 merc cam. Ron has lots of experience with different cams and their driveability. 36fordguy
On the first quote: That is one reason why I hope not to have the need to have a flywheel drilled.

2nd quote: Is a pressed steel housing the same as a stamped housing. This set-up is supposed to have a Merc stamped bell housing.

3rd quote: How will the Isky-77 peform with a sromberg and stock ignition? How about with a Rochester and Bubba's ignition set-up?
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:07 PM   #66
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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The 1949 or 1950 pressed bell will work but the 1953 is a different animal. I found the cast iron one first. The Isky 77 is a good mild cam and should work O.K. Go with the Bubba's GM dist with mech and vacuum advance with Bubba's curves. I'm using the MSD early distributor with reluctor and pickup and MSD 6A box. Changed the springs and limit bushing to have all in at 1500 rpm max adv at 18 degree to start with my msd does not have vac. adv. Holly 390 4 barrel. I do have the loadomatic with a pertronic module- The holly has both ported and manifold vac. but the cap on the ford dist. had solid wire and not compatible with the msd 6A box. The 8 mm spiral wire will work in the Ford dist but I already the msd dist all wired up so used it. My goal is to have a good driver that does not overheat (easy ?) The later pumps aftermarket circulate 25 percent more water then 59A pumps. I was going to go with skip's pumps but I need thermostats in the winter (too cold here) 36forguy
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Old 05-02-2015, 07:18 AM   #67
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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I guess you are reiterating what you have already reccomended to me:....What is the difference between a modern diaphram cluth plate, your choice, and a non- modern style which I think the reference is Long Style?
The old Long and Borg & Beck designs use several small but strong coil springs, while the diaphragm design uses one large spring, resulting is far fewer parts, reduced cost, lower pedal efforts, and are the reasons they have been the general production clutch of choice for many years. The B&B went away in the '50s/'60s, and Ford ditched the Long in the '70s. Do a little research and I'm sure you will agree the diaphragm is a better clutch choice.
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Old 05-02-2015, 08:08 AM   #68
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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The old Long and Borg & Beck designs use several small but strong coil springs, while the diaphragm design uses one large spring, resulting is far fewer parts, reduced cost, lower pedal efforts, and are the reasons they have been the general production clutch of choice for many years. The B&B went away in the '50s/'60s, and Ford ditched the Long in the '70s. Do a little research and I'm sure you will agree the diaphragm is a better clutch choice.
Yes, I will do that Bob. I am also calling Ft. Wayne clutch next week.
Thanks, Richard
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Old 05-02-2015, 08:23 AM   #69
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

My 51 Mercs use the Borg & Beck design and they work very well with very reasonable pedal pressure since they do not have a full spring set in the pressure plate. They may be old and obsolete but they are a very viable option for an early style build with the old 3-speed top shifter. Once a person has a good clutch in there it won't matter what brand or type as long as it works. If the engine comes with that clutch, Ft Wayne clutch can rebuild it for a decent price.

I sort to like the obsolete stuff but it is nice to know that there are modern options. With the diaphragm type you still have to make certain you have a set up that will work for the early style throw out bearing & clutch controls. The diaphragm type needs the modified fingers and you still need a 1 3/8 10-spline disc.
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Old 05-02-2015, 09:57 AM   #70
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Once a person has a good clutch in there it won't matter what brand or type as long as it works. If the engine comes with that clutch, Ft Wayne clutch can rebuild it for a decent price.

My main objective is that IT WORKS! I'll be in contact with Ft. Wayne clutch. Thanks
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Old 05-05-2015, 11:25 AM   #71
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Barners,
At the end of the week, I will be going to pick up the Merc engine. It is on a test stand. I know that after his initial fire and 15 minute test run, he declared it ready to go. I told him "Great, but I will give it a more vigourous test, on the stand, before I purchase." What do you guys reccomend?
Dixie
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Old 05-05-2015, 11:50 AM   #72
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Is this a new rebuild or an older running engine? If it is a new rebuild, you need to limit the run time on the engine stand, even the 15 minutes it has already been run is not a good idea. If it is an older engine, not a problem.
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:43 PM   #73
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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Is this a new rebuild or an older running engine? If it is a new rebuild, you need to limit the run time on the engine stand, even the 15 minutes it has already been run is not a good idea. If it is an older engine, not a problem.
It is a new rebuild. I am struggling with your rational. So, a new rebuild should not be run on the test stand? What is the purpose of the test stand, if not to test a rebuilt engine? Is the purpose of the test stand to test used engines? So what is the limit an engine should be run on the test stand after a rebuild? How does test-stand-time differ from break in time, installed in the car. Just askin'!
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:09 PM   #74
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

That is why a lot of folks on here are not supportive of test stands!! Ol Ron for one and Walt, etc. The issue is seating the rings, the engine needs a load on it for the rings to seat properly. Go running an engine on a test stand for very long without a load and you will end up with ring problems. Another problem is allowing a new engine to idle both on a test stand or in a car. New camshafts (as well as other components) will not seat properly if allowed to idle, the RPM need to be kept up and varied for at least the first 15 to 20 min. after starting. A lot of cam failures can be traced to improper cam break in.

Now a few questions for you, what is accomplished by running an engine on a stand? Other than assuring it will start and a few minor test what is being accomplished? I would not want to run a new engine on a stand (or a none moving car) for more than a few minutes. Any amount of time an engine is run without a load on it is too much, but there are some practical considerations (as assuring an engine runs).

Ok, now, to break in an engine, it needs to be under a load and not driven at a constant speed. I would want at least 1500-2000 RPM on a new cam and then vary the speed up and down every minute or so. No driving at a constant speed for any extended time and limit idling of any kind until there is some time on the engine.

Last edited by JSeery; 05-05-2015 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:26 PM   #75
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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That is why a lot of folks on here are not supportive of test stands!! Ol Ron for one and Walt, etc. The issue is seating the rings, the engine needs a load on it for the rings to seat properly. Go running an engine on a test stand for very long without a load and you will end up with ring problems. Another problem is allowing a new engine to idle both on a test stand or in a car. New camshafts (as well as other components) will not seat properly if allowed to idle, the RPM need to be kept up and varied for at least the first 15 to 20 min. after starting. A lot of cam failures can be traced to improper cam break in.

Now a few questions for you, what is accomplished by running an engine on a stand? Other than assuring it will start and a few minor test what is being accomplished? I would not want to run a new engine on a stand (or a none moving car) for more than a few minutes. Any amount of time an engine is run without a load on it is too much, but there are some practical considerations (as assuring an engine runs).

Ok, now, to break in an engine, it needs to be under a load and not driven at a constant speed. I would want at least 1500-2000 RPM on a new cam and then vary the speed up and down every minute or so. No driving at a constant speed for any extended time and limit idling of any kind until there is some time on the engine.
Ok thanks! I anticipated your rational would be based on operating the engine without a load. I was going to high idle and vary speeds for about 30 minutes to see if oil pressure was maintained, and equally important, it didn't overheat. What are the few minor test you mentioned.
Thanks for the break-in tips.

Richard
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:41 PM   #76
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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Ok thanks! I anticipated your rational would be based on operating the engine without a load. I was going to high idle and vary speeds for about 30 minutes to see if oil pressure was maintained, and equally important, it didn't overheat. What are the few minor test you mentioned.
Thanks for the break-in tips.

Richard
Bad plan, but it's your (soon to be) engine, not something I would do. I wouldn't want to run a new engine on a stand for more than a couple of minutes and it's already gone way beyond that. While your doing all this checking (I assume to assure it's a good engine) your damaging it. Doesn't seem like a reasonable approach to me, but again, it's your engine.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:07 PM   #77
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

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Bad plan, but it's your (soon to be) engine, not something I would do. I wouldn't want to run a new engine on a stand for more than a couple of minutes and it's already gone way beyond that. While your doing all this checking (I assume to assure it's a good engine) your damaging it. Doesn't seem like a reasonable approach to me, but again, it's your engine.
The reason I am posting on here is to benefit from folks that have more experience and expertise than I. I did not intend to engage you in argument about what I WAS (past tense) going to do! Ok, you convinced me; Bad Plan! What would your pan be? How about reading my entire post and respond to my question about the few simple test you ambiguously refered to in your first post. In other words " What would you do if you had benifit of buying a newly rebuilt flathead still on a test stand"?
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:31 PM   #78
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

LOL, like your reply. Wish we could get some other inputs here, it is always good to have multiple inputs! If it were me, I would be interested in the history of the engine, who rebuilt it and what parts were used. As far as running it I'm not sure what you can test other than it starts, runs, doesn't vibrate, oil pressure, etc. Could put a vacuum gauge on it. I would start the engine and run it through various RPM ranges and see how smooth it runs, are there any strange noises. That should not take more than a minute or two. Beyond that not sure what you could test running it. Look it over for water leaks, etc. that's about it. If you are really concerned about the health of the engine you would want to do a compression test on all of the cylinders. I'm not sure you could really test it for overheat issues on a test stand, there are a lot of variables to the overheat issue.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:53 PM   #79
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

The ad was in the v/8 times magazine and the builder is an Early v/8 club member, as I am. He is a retired Ford mechanic, who has rebuilt both of the 8ba's in his 40 Tudor and 35 pu. An incentive to me is that he has already did the 40/8ba swap and is supposed to outfit me with all parts needed afte I OK deal. He said I will be provided with receipts. I hope that includes machine receipts. the compressio test sounds like a real good idea. I understand about overheating variables. This is my first time buying rebuilt, and with already having two used, running flatheads go from good to worst, you can understand my aprehension.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:12 PM   #80
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Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Be nice to have a few others weight in on this!
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