Liner/bore question.

[Mart]

Hi guys.

In the decision making process regarding my crusty flatty rebuild, I have a question.

The liners I have used are the Mellings CSL205 1/8" wall sleeves.

The OD is 3.440. On one bore out of four there was a hint of water jacket showing in the bore before I put the liner in.

So my question is, would these sleeves, in reasonably solid parent material, support a 3-5/16" bore?

3.440 - 3.313 = 0.127. So that would leave a 63 thou liner thickness each side plus the parent metal.

Is that too thin?

This would be for a nice driveable street application rather than an out and out race motor.

If it is too thin, is there a known liner suitable for that bore?

Thanks for your help.

Mart.

[flatheadmurre]

Thoose liners are 1/8 wall and half would be left after going to .125 so why not...
If you have a throughspot from rust...only way to know what you have for thickness in the block is sonic testing.
If you have the pistons already putting in a few more liners seems like the wallet friendly option...
Putting in a bigger liner has the downside you will reduce deck to bottom strenght...no such thing as a free lunch.

[marko39]

Should be ok, Ford made liners .040 thick.

[flatjack9]

I'll be following as I am facing the same potential problem.

[rotorwrench]

The tin can sleeves were steel if I remember correctly and a lot of replacements are cast iron. You will just have to experiment to find out. Most folks go back with standard size. Hopefully some one on here can tell you more.

[Mart]

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Thanks for the responses.

I'm not thinking of going to that size (.125) now, I was just wondering if it could be a possibility sometime in the future.

Cheers.

Mart.

[Brian]

The problem with using a .063" wall cast iron liner in a compromised bore [you said water jacket is evident in one spot], is that there is no support in that area....eventually it will fail...sorry, been there, done that.

[rotorwrench]

I've seen where folks have bored plumb through the cylinder walls in order to put sleeves in for larger bores. This "wet sleeve" application may be tricky but it has been done. On the one I've read about in the Tex Smith flathead book was successful and they used JB Weld epoxy up top and down below in order to help stabilize the deck. It was a 1937 21 stud 221 that was bored out for 3 3/16" sleeves. I doubt if they used any sweating in process due to the condense problem but I don't know for sure. They were a well equipped machine shop so they may have pressed them in. They didn't mention the size of fit either. It sound risky but some folks will try anything to get a larger bore.

[flatrod]

I think the .063 wall will be fine, if the (hint of water jacket) is just a pit. If it were a crack in the bore, of a gouge from a wist pin, then I would not go that thin. It will fail in that same spot.

[flatjack9]

I found a Melling sleeve, CSL 1128, which has a 3.3070 bore and is 3/32 thick. When bored to 3 5/16 there will be around .090 wall left.

[flatheadmurre]

You can install a bigger liner...and maintain the wall thickness...but somewhere you get to the point where there isn´t enough material left to keep block and deck together.
To go beyond that point you need a liner that holds block and deck...stepped/threaded/glued...i´ve installed threaded liners to deal with that issue and it´s a royal pain in the rear...

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I found a Melling sleeve, CSL 1128, which has a 3.070 bore and is 3/16 thick. When bored to 3 5/16 there will be around an .090 wall left.

Hi Jack, want to make sure I'm reading that correctly, that number Melling sleeve shows as a 3.307" bore and a 3.4975" for the O.D.(nominal)!

Over the years here we've done hundreds (literally) of sleeve installations, most were usually on the BBC castings for restoration purposes, the customers demanded 8 sleeves to get back to a "standard" 4.250"/4.251" finished bore! Not a big deal most times! We have always used Loctite (green) #675 on sleeves.

The rest were more for repairs and to make the castings usable!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I would recommend using the minimum O.D. sleeve for an effective repair and definitely leave MOST of the sleeve wall intact AFTER the getting to the finished bore size. Even if this means new (somewhat smaller) pistons, we would want it to be safe after all that sleeve work! Personally I would prefer .090" minimum wall thickness left, if at all possible??

[flatjack9]

Hi Gary, I did edit my post as I mistyped the size originally.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I found a Melling sleeve, CSL 1128, which has a 3.3070 bore and is 3/16 thick. When bored to 3 5/16 there will be around .090 wall left.

its a 3/32" wall not 3/16"



R

[flatjack9]

Right. I'll amend my post. I better do a better job of proofreading. Two screw ups in one post.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I found a Melling sleeve, CSL 1128, which has a 3.3070 bore and is 3/32 thick. When bored to 3 5/16 there will be around .090 wall left.

I'd be a lot more comfortable with a .090 wall thickness than a .060 wall thickness in a cast iron sleeve. As noted by Gary, make sure you seal the sleeves with LockTite.

[swedishsteel]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I've seen where folks have bored plumb through the cylinder walls in order to put sleeves in for larger bores. This "wet sleeve" application may be tricky but it has been done. On the one I've read about in the Tex Smith flathead book was successful and they used JB Weld epoxy up top and down below in order to help stabilize the deck. It was a 1937 21 stud 221 that was bored out for 3 3/16" sleeves. I doubt if they used any sweating in process due to the condense problem but I don't know for sure. They were a well equipped machine shop so they may have pressed them in. They didn't mention the size of fit either. It sound risky but some folks will try anything to get a larger bore.

I bought a '36 tudor that came with a boat load of extra parts the previous owner had had the original '36 LB block bored the cylinder walls out to water and had sleeves put in to make a 239 cu. in. block. When I got it the block was bare with valve train installed. I assembled it and put it in my 5 window and had trouble with it getting hot and water coming out the header from the get go. Long story short, pulled it out with about 5 miles plus break in time and one of the sleeves had a three inch vertical split. Since then, the info that I can find all indicates that the 37 and later 221 blocks were stronger and better candidates for that radical of a boring/sleeve operation. In my case, it wrecked a crack free '36 LB block.

[rotorwrench]

The 21 stud engines just barely have enough edge distance at the lower edge of the deck left after a mod to 3 3/16" to get a cylinder head gasket to work. Sealing the sleeves is another matter. Wet sleeves in a block that's not made for it is always a gamble. The deck is thin and they really need all the support they can get.

I've never used a locking type anaerobic product as a sealer before. I've used the anaerobic sealants like #518 and have had good luck with it. I've used a lot of Loctite 680 which used to be #35 before they added so many different ones to the list. Those Loctite bearing and sleeve setters are some strong stuff and are not easily broken loose after they set up. With a sleeve, a person can bore it out but with a bearing, it takes a lot of heating and cooling cycles to get the stuff to turn loose but it always does eventually.

Tractors use o-rings for the sleeves on most of the modern stuff and a lot of them have a lip at the top as well but they are designed this way.