Front left brake locks on!

[Allanw]

Hi All,

Input required PLEASE!

Ever since we got our 29 Tudor (RHD), it had a shudder when applying the brakes cold - it was on the left side front, and generally only did it the first or maybe second time the brakes were applied. On gravel it would lock the wheel, on seal the car shuddered. At higher speed it didn.t do it, but was BAD in my driveway!

We found the front left drum was coated in grease inside, so we replaced the brake shoes, and fitted a Flathead Ted Floater System for ease of adjustment/safety. They're moulded linings, with pressed drums (I know this isn't ideal... now), however, the old ones were woven anyway.

The problem recently got worse, after all the work, and the front left will lock on and STAY locked, until you stop!

We have just rebuilt the radius ball on the transmission, as it was bodged up, and not correctly assembled - it's all new, and the ball looks OK.

I can't be 100% if the problem is in the brakes, or chassis related.

Am I correct in thinking that worn out engine mounts can cause this, allowing the engine/trans to move and put the brakes on harder on that side???

Also, the frame is sagged at the mounts, and the trans rear "mount" - thing that sits above the floor/chassis? crossmember is actually touching on the frame, which I think it isn't supposed to do.

I've Googled like anything, and searched the "Barn" but nothiing jumps out

Any advice is appreciated!

Thanks

[Tom Wesenberg]

Make sure the 4 backing plate bolts are tight so the plate can't rotate forward when the brakes are applied. If it's loose enought to rotate a little forward then it will apply the brake even harder on that wheel.

I adjusted the brakes for a club member the other day, and he had Ted's floaters. I'm not sold on them, as the left rear wheel didn't release too well after braking, while on the jack stands being adjusted. After I was done I took the car for a road test and it seemed fine and seemed to release OK and also steered straight ahead with my hands off the wheel and foot on the brakes. I didn't notice that the pedal was any easier to push than the stock brakes on my 28. I did notice that his left front backing plate wasn't tight enough and I will go back and tighten that for him.

[1931 flamingo]

Brakes have to be GOOD and work properly before installing Ted's Floaters. They are NOT a fix for bad brakes. Did you chamfer the leading and trailing edges of the new shoes>> Are they centered and arced to the drums?? Also it sounds like you've got Float-a-mounts instead of orig type motor mounts.
Paul in CT

[larrys40]

Allen
I concur with Tom that its probably a loose front backing plate. Also check your spindle bolts ( king pins) . While your up there take the shoes off and wedge and make sure your pin isn't burred up and working smoothly .
Again. I think tons reply is spot on.
I noticed you note on frame sag. In my opinion I think that the frame sag is way over emphasized at times
More common is the fact that either the motor mount rubber is actually bad and that many don't install the sleeve/bolts properly or use the correct rubber

Best of luck !
Larry Shepard

[SeaSlugs]

I would check all the external stuff that's been mentioned along with popping the drum off and checking for anything worn such as the brake shoe holes where the pins for the wedge and rollers go thru (essentially allowing slop and allowing the shoe to "float" from its adjustment)

also ensure the shoes brake lining have a chamber ground on the edges. as a last resort id swap the shoes around (rear shoe to front and front shoe to rear, requires removing the wedges and flipping them over) and see how it does.

[Allanw]

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Thanks everyone. I really do appreciate the input!

One thing that Dad did today, was to refit the top brake spring, which the FlatHead Ted instructions say to remove. On a single test dive, it was fine, though it could be back to bad tomorrow!

I can't see whay that would fix it anyway, as it did it before AND after the new brakes and floaters.

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Make sure the 4 backing plate bolts are tight

I adjusted the brakes for a club member the other day, and he had Ted's floaters. I'm not sold on them, as the left rear wheel didn't release too well after braking, while on the jack stands being adjusted.

I didn't notice that the pedal was any easier to push than the stock brakes on my 28.

The backing plates are tight - when we did the brakes, we took them off, welding the worn track for the pins, and grinding flat again. They were then refitted and still seem tight

We fitted the new brakes first, before the floaters. I'm not particularly familiar with the A brakes, but am very familiar with brakes (hydraulic, both drum and discs - I've had old VW's, plus a pile of moderen cars, and I once managed a family owned fleet of 120 old "rent a dent" type cars). The new brakes were only on for a 100 miles or so before fitting the floaters, and fitting the floaters seemed to really help with pedal effort, mostly in everyday braking - hard braking still required a lot of effort, but it would happily lock the wheels. But I can't say I'd have had the brakes optimally adjusted, as I'm sure you probably have Tom!

We haven't yet done the rears yet - they're still stock.

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Brakes have to be GOOD and work properly before installing Ted's Floaters. They are NOT a fix for bad brakes. Did you chamfer the leading and trailing edges of the new shoes>> Are they centered and arced to the drums?? Also it sounds like you've got Float-a-mounts instead of orig type motor mounts.
Paul in CT

I hoped the overhaul would fix the problem, the floaters were just to make ajusting easier, and hopefully reduce effort - the brakes were SHOCKING before we started! Certainly better once we did the work, but the cold shudder was still there (though slightly better), the floaters initially made it better , but it returned, and eventually got worse (now locking, instead of shuddering!). Shoes were all chamfered, and we even increased the chamfer last time we had them apart.

Shoes wer not arced, but we did a test fit, and they were very good. They weren't centered using a centering tool, though I adjusted it slightly using my patented see where it touches and adjust method! Then the flaoters were fitted, which removed the requirement for fine centering, as the shoes can "float" into position as they are applied. Apparently.

The rear "mount" I mentioned is this one - actually on the u-joint housing:

Though we have a rubber pad in between that appears to be very old (rock hard, and worn out!) - I think the mounts are standard otherwise.

Originally Posted by larrys40

Allen
I concur with Tom that its probably a loose front backing plate. Also check your spindle bolts ( king pins) . While your up there take the shoes off and wedge and make sure your pin isn't burred up and working smoothly .
Again. I think tons reply is spot on.
I noticed you note on frame sag. In my opinion I think that the frame sag is way over emphasized at times
More common is the fact that either the motor mount rubber is actually bad and that many don't install the sleeve/bolts properly or use the correct rubber

Best of luck !
Larry Shepard

Thanks Larry, As I say - the plate is tight (I wish it weren't, and that a torque wrench would fix it!). I haven't checked the spindles, though Dad has - he's not the most mechanical in the world though! A local Vintage car Club member helped out, and he found one pin on the top was burred and a bit stuck in where the adjuster wedge would normally be (the floaters have a floating wedge in there). The operating wedge at the bottom is all new, as it's part of the floater kit.

I mention the sag, in case it's relevent - I know it;s there, because we cannot adjust the engine covers to fit the cowl and radiator - no matter what we do! The mounts are old, but I have no idea of the actual condition of them. I have no reason to suspect them but I know the shuudering REALLY must load them up - the WHOLE car shakes violently! It's actuall better now it just locks, but it's created a couple of small flat spots on the tyre!

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

I would check all the external stuff that's been mentioned along with popping the drum off and checking for anything worn such as the brake shoe holes where the pins for the wedge and rollers go thru (essentially allowing slop and allowing the shoe to "float" from its adjustment)

also ensure the shoes brake lining have a chamber ground on the edges. as a last resort id swap the shoes around (rear shoe to front and front shoe to rear, requires removing the wedges and flipping them over) and see how it does.

We thought about swapping lots of parts, if nothing else to track the fault. Because it was there before, and after, I assume it's a part we haven't replaced.

Because so may of the parts inside the drum have been replaced, I suspect it's something chassis related, but as I say, I'm not familiar with the intricate details of the entire system.

[Tom Wesenberg]

My friend's frame was sagging at the rear motor mounts to the point the brake cross shaft hit the torque tube when the brakes were applied. He took the frame to the bady shop, where they must have tied the ends down and jacked up at the mounts to straighten it. After that I could adjust the brakes. The same thing happened on an assembled car and the body shop fixed it the same way. I didn't see them do the work but I'm pretty sure that's the way it was fixed, as I came in the next day and the hood fit correctly.

[Smurkey]

I'm no "A" brake expert...at all. But maybe the brake rod on that one side has been used for "adjustment" some time in the past and is now the incorrect length. All adjustment is supposed to be at the adjuster on the backing plate, never the rod clevises. But, you never know...

Steve

[Allanw]

Well... Dad managed to add the top springs back onto the shoes, and slacken the adjustment on the fronts. The pedal moves further down, bt the car still seems to brake OK, with no judder so far!

He needed it for a show on the weekend, so left it like that to drive there.

Interestingly, he was talking to another club member about it, and he turned and said "There's your man!" - it was Ted (Flathead Ted!).

He suggested a couple of things, that we'll followup on, and see how we go.

I have adjusted the brake rods, as they had been dicked with before we got the car, but the problem has been the same before and after. I still suspect something in the drum/suspension on that side.

Hopefully I can report back with good news soon!

Thanks!