Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-06-2020, 11:49 AM   #1
Automotive Stud
Senior Member
 
Automotive Stud's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 527
Default Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Just curious if anyone has done the swap. Obviously the torque tube would need to be shortened, and the trans mount is quite different. What really concerns me is the overdrive solenoid clearing the X member. Just curious if anyone has attempted the job.
Automotive Stud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 01:51 PM   #2
Ken/Alabama
Senior Member
 
Ken/Alabama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,319
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Yes, I seen a 40 with that setup a few years ago at the Moonshine Festival in north Georgia. It was done a long time ago , probably in the 40s- early 50s. Can’t remember any particulars about it other than the X member being modified. Wish I had taken some photos of it.
Ken/Alabama is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 04-06-2020, 02:23 PM   #3
skidmarks
Senior Member
 
skidmarks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: newark, delaware
Posts: 3,466
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

I had a 40 ford with a 50 merc overdrive. The transmission is basically the same size but open drive.

The entire center of the X memeber was opened up but the rails were intact. The lower flange on the left side.was.notched to clear the solenoid.
With the open drive the rear of the trans was lower then What you will run into with the closed drive. It worked because the pinion on the later model ford rear is much lower then the banjo rear.

In the end I broke it and replaced it with a T5. It failed from age and was well abused prior to me owning it.
skidmarks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 02:31 PM   #4
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 6,365
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidmarks View Post
In the end I broke it and replaced it with a T5. It failed from age and was well abused prior to me owning it.

Hey Skids....Probably a dumb question, but since you've experienced both the 3+1 Merc and the 4+1 T5, especially in the same car, could you elaborate a little on which trans was all-around better to drive with, and why? DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


LAZINESS is the art of RESTING...before you get tired!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 02:49 PM   #5
skidmarks
Senior Member
 
skidmarks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: newark, delaware
Posts: 3,466
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

T5, shifts smother and less of a jump between gears. Car has a stock 8BA and a 3.55 rear and i dont use 1 st gear in the T5
None of the extra stuff with the overdrive on the T5 that the merc has
skidmarks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 05:12 PM   #6
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 6,365
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidmarks View Post
T5, shifts smother and less of a jump between gears. Car has a stock 8BA and a 3.55 rear and i dont use 1 st gear in the T5
None of the extra stuff with the overdrive on the T5 that the merc has

Thanks, Skid! That's the "worthless" 1st gear that I keep preaching about in previous T5 threads. It is likely a transmission that came out of an S-10, which mostly have a 4.03 (useless) 1st gear ratio. That is the reason why I keep preaching about using the Camaro gear set which has four nicely-spaced gears with 1st gear having a 2.95 ratio....huge difference. It's simple as pie to swap that S-10 rear housing (for it's forward shifter location) onto a Camaro gearbox, or to put the Camaro gear set into the S-10 case and tail shaft housing. Thanks for the reply! DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


LAZINESS is the art of RESTING...before you get tired!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 05:48 PM   #7
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,295
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidmarks View Post
T5, shifts smother and less of a jump between gears. Car has a stock 8BA and a 3.55 rear and i dont use 1 st gear in the T5
None of the extra stuff with the overdrive on the T5 that the merc has

But you lose the instant kickdown feature of the old overdrive trans! Cruising along in O/D and need to pass in a hurry? Just floor the gas pedal and you've instantly downshifted without touching the clutch nor the shift lever! After you finish passing, just let off the gas an instant and you are automatically back in overdrive! Coming to a long downhill? Floor the gas to kickdown, pull out the lockout handle, and proceed down the hill in direct high with better engine braking. Cars with the Borg-Warner O/D usually had 4.11 or so gears. With a ratio of (I think) .72 in O/D, the effective axle ratio became 2.95 instead of 4.11. If you didn't like to shift around town, you just left the trans in second in slow traffic. If/when you got above 27 MPH just let off the gas for an instant and you were in overdrive second, good for 40-50 MPH.
That ol' overdrive had a lot going for it!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 06:38 PM   #8
skidmarks
Senior Member
 
skidmarks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: newark, delaware
Posts: 3,466
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
But you lose the instant kickdown feature of the old overdrive trans! Cruising along in O/D and need to pass in a hurry? Just floor the gas pedal and you've instantly downshifted without touching the clutch nor the shift lever! After you finish passing, just let off the gas an instant and you are automatically back in overdrive! Coming to a long downhill? Floor the gas to kickdown, pull out the lockout handle, and proceed down the hill in direct high with better engine braking. Cars with the Borg-Warner O/D usually had 4.11 or so gears. With a ratio of (I think) .72 in O/D, the effective axle ratio became 2.95 instead of 4.11. If you didn't like to shift around town, you just left the trans in second in slow traffic. If/when you got above 27 MPH just let off the gas for an instant and you were in overdrive second, good for 40-50 MPH.
That ol' overdrive had a lot going for it!
Right, i know from experience and i wont be switching back. The T5 is worlds apart from the merc

The reason I used the S10 transmission at the time, it was free for towing off the entire truck. I since bought a Camaro transmission but have no reason to take it apart.right now

The lincoln overdrive to me is just a doner for the gear set. Last fall there was a local hoarders place getting scraped and pretty much everything was junk but digging inside the remains of a 49 ford panel truck was a lincoln overdrive. I bought it from the scrapman and took it apart with a sledgehammer. I did manage to salvage a 25 tooth gear set and a U joint. As bad as the outside was i didnt think there would be anything left inside. The overdrive unit was junk.
I took a 50 olds 3 speed apart the same way to salvage the output shaft. The rest was junk. A careful smack in the right spot with a 8lb hammer and they split open like a egg. Saves alot of time and cussing getting a frozen junk transmission apart

Last edited by skidmarks; 04-06-2020 at 06:43 PM.
skidmarks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 09:36 PM   #9
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 6,365
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidmarks View Post
Last fall, I bought a Lincoln O/D from the scrapman and took it apart with a sledgehammer. As bad as the outside was i didnt think there would be anything left inside.
I took a 50 olds 3 speed apart the same way to salvage the output shaft. A careful smack in the right spot with a 8lb hammer and they split open like a egg. Saves alot of time and cussing getting a frozen junk transmission apart

Skids.....I like your attitude, and I really like your approach to "real-world" problem solving! DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


LAZINESS is the art of RESTING...before you get tired!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 06:41 AM   #10
42merc
Senior Member
 
42merc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Buchanan, MI
Posts: 595
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama View Post
Yes, I seen a 40 with that setup a few years ago at the Moonshine Festival in north Georgia. It was done a long time ago , probably in the 40s- early 50s. Can’t remember any particulars about it other than the X member being modified. Wish I had taken some photos of it.
I was at the Moonshine Festival a few years ago with my blue standard, Lincoln OD equipped '40. Powered by a 255 Merc flathead.
In fact we met, probably introduced by Charles B.
Anyway, my Lincoln OD was modified with a '50 merc solenoid & adapter, still utilizing the Lincoln tail housing & "U" joint. This mod tucks the solenoid higher into the X member. This plus 13" taken from torque tube & driveshaft connects things together. A little nibbling here & there makes it work. I kept the 3:78 gear & with 2,25-75x15 tires made a great road car.
My big deal was to keep things stock looking. I didn't want a shifter coming out of the floor. That plus I'm old & have had BW overdrives in just about every old car possible.
Don
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0848.jpg (98.7 KB, 34 views)

Last edited by 42merc; 04-07-2020 at 07:17 AM.
42merc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 08:09 AM   #11
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,470
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42merc View Post
I was at the Moonshine Festival a few years ago with my blue standard, Lincoln OD equipped '40. Powered by a 255 Merc flathead.
In fact we met, probably introduced by Charles B.
Anyway, my Lincoln OD was modified with a '50 merc solenoid & adapter, still utilizing the Lincoln tail housing & "U" joint. This mod tucks the solenoid higher into the X member. This plus 13" taken from torque tube & driveshaft connects things together. A little nibbling here & there makes it work. I kept the 3:78 gear & with 2,25-75x15 tires made a great road car.
My big deal was to keep things stock looking. I didn't want a shifter coming out of the floor. That plus I'm old & have had BW overdrives in just about every old car possible.
Don
Thanks for posting, Don. I was going to post something similar about the Merc. solenoid. I have a cherry LZ O/D with a 26 tooth set but it does not have the solenoid. More than likely, I'll just use the gears like Skid said and, if using a O/D trans, I'd use a T5 with the proper gear set.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 10:21 AM   #12
Automotive Stud
Senior Member
 
Automotive Stud's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 527
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42merc View Post
I was at the Moonshine Festival a few years ago with my blue standard, Lincoln OD equipped '40. Powered by a 255 Merc flathead.
In fact we met, probably introduced by Charles B.
Anyway, my Lincoln OD was modified with a '50 merc solenoid & adapter, still utilizing the Lincoln tail housing & "U" joint. This mod tucks the solenoid higher into the X member. This plus 13" taken from torque tube & driveshaft connects things together. A little nibbling here & there makes it work. I kept the 3:78 gear & with 2,25-75x15 tires made a great road car.
My big deal was to keep things stock looking. I didn't want a shifter coming out of the floor. That plus I'm old & have had BW overdrives in just about every old car possible.
Don
Did the "adapter" where the solenoid mounts from a merc transmission bolt right on the lincoln transmission?

I have one of the merc transmissions in my roadster, and after sorting out the bugs I really like it! I recently came into a lincoln trans, and I'm getting ready to swap the motor and rebuild the trans in the '40, and this car is keeping the torque tube, so the lincoln trans is looking really promising. It still has the solenoid but my car is 12v.
Automotive Stud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 12:15 PM   #13
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 6,365
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automotive Stud View Post
Did the "adapter" where the solenoid mounts from a merc transmission bolt right on the lincoln transmission?

I have one of the merc transmissions in my roadster, and after sorting out the bugs I really like it! I recently came into a lincoln trans, and I'm getting ready to swap the motor and rebuild the trans in the '40, and this car is keeping the torque tube, so the lincoln trans is looking really promising. It still has the solenoid but my car is 12v.

Hey Auto Stud....Is THIS the Lincoln OD trans you're talking about, below? IF so, and keeping in mind that you want to retain the torque tube, had you given any consideration to something just a smidge smaller and without that gi-normous solenoid sticking out the side, like this short little T5 that we put together using (ALL Borg-Warner factory parts) Jeep 4 X 4 main shaft and rear housing to shorten this Camaro-geared T5 by almost 10"? It's pictured here in Heard's '35 Ford chassis which is essentially identical to a '40 chassis, dimensionally. My God, that Lincoln rig has gotta weigh every bit of 200 pounds, no? Just sayin'! DD





Shortened Camaro T5







..
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


LAZINESS is the art of RESTING...before you get tired!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 12:18 PM   #14
Automotive Stud
Senior Member
 
Automotive Stud's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 527
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

That's a neat setup, but I want to keep the column shift, and I already have a lincoln transmission.
Automotive Stud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 01:12 PM   #15
skidmarks
Senior Member
 
skidmarks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: newark, delaware
Posts: 3,466
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Wasnt there a top loader 4 speed were 4th was overdrive and its side shift? That would be a column shift option but your reverse would have to be a seperate cable.

I have another project that has a built 57 cadillac motor with a top loader adapter, but i got one of those t170 overdrives to use with it. But its also floor shift.

I know your determined to use that lincoln overdrive.
skidmarks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 03:58 PM   #16
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,295
Smile Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Hey Auto Stud....Is THIS the Lincoln OD trans you're talking about, below? IF so, and keeping in mind that you want to retain the torque tube, had you given any consideration to something just a smidge smaller and without that gi-normous solenoid sticking out the side, like this short little T5 that we put together using (ALL Borg-Warner factory parts) Jeep 4 X 4 main shaft and rear housing to shorten this Camaro-geared T5 by almost 10"? It's pictured here in Heard's '35 Ford chassis which is essentially identical to a '40 chassis, dimensionally. My God, that Lincoln rig has gotta weigh every bit of 200 pounds, no? Just sayin'! DD





Shortened Camaro T5







..



But then you miss the feel of instant kickdown! Just wiggle your toes, basically, and that ol' flathead pops into its powerband and away you go.
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 04:22 PM   #17
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 6,365
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
But then you miss the feel of instant kickdown! Just wiggle your toes, basically, and that ol' flathead pops into its powerband and away you go.

Well, what's the fun in that? My new Chevy pick-up's electronic, computer-controlled automatic trans will do that all day long! I thought the whole idea here was to experience just little nostalgia by still being able to row that trans by hand, along with a little bit of fancy, coordinated foot work on the that third pedal. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


LAZINESS is the art of RESTING...before you get tired!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2020, 03:10 AM   #18
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,590
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

That Lincoln tranny is a BEAST! I bet I could not even lift it . . . I think I'll go the T5 route on my next 34 build - with the good Ford Motorsport gearset and a .82 overdrive.
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2020, 06:18 AM   #19
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,470
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
That Lincoln tranny is a BEAST! I bet I could not even lift it . . . I think I'll go the T5 route on my next 34 build - with the good Ford Motorsport gearset and a .82 overdrive.
I agree. After seeing those two picts.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2020, 03:22 PM   #20
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 6,365
Default Re: Zephyr overdrive into 1940 Ford?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
That Lincoln tranny is a BEAST! I bet I could not even lift it . . . I think I'll go the T5 route on my next 34 build - with the good Ford Motorsport gearset and a .82 overdrive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
I agree. After seeing those two picts.

Tim...IF you and Bored&Stroked are planning a T5 with an open drive line, that'll all work-out just fine. But if y'all are talking about doing the torque tube hook-up with the little SHORT T5 like the one in my picture, you have to remember that to utilize the SHORT Jeep main shaft and rear extension housing, the gear set you use MUST be of the NON World Class variety, which there ain't a damned thing wrong with. The Jeeps were only manufactured in NWC configurations. The only differences are in some of the bearing types, and in the friction materials on the synchronizers.


There is no difference in gear strengths between the WC and the NWC trans types. With that being said, and if you do plan on the shorty Jeep parts, ya better get after it looking for the Jeep parts....they weren't that easy to find back when, and they're starting to get fairly few and far between now. The only three Jeep parts needed are the main shaft, the rear housing and the 23-spline upper OD gear. I can help you with details if needed. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


LAZINESS is the art of RESTING...before you get tired!




V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:43 PM.