New Engine QA and Paul Shinn's Concerns

[JRLampl]

New Engine QA and Paul Shinn's Concerns

As we work through this process with Paul Shinn and his videos/block measurements etc., I wanted to share details on the block manufacturing and verification process.

Factory Verification of the "New Engine" Cylinder Block

The factory in China we are using to manufacture the new Model A cylinder block has a dedicated inspection room to verify dimensions and ensure that the CNC machining programs produce parts within drawing tolerances.

The inspection room has its own HVAC system to maintain 72 degrees F and slightly higher air pressure than the rest of the factory. The higher air pressure keeps dust out when someone opens a door.

The inspection room has a computer-controlled Coordinate Measuring Machine (CMM), a large granite surface plate, and other precision tools used for inspection.

A cylinder block needing verification is placed in the inspection room and allowed to stabilize for 12 hours before any measurements are taken.

After stabilization, the cylinder block is placed on the surface plate, not restrained in any way, and measurements are taken using the CMM to verify compliance with the drawing dimensions.

For every "production run", the first cylinder block is inspected as described above.

Every cylinder block during a production run does not receive a full inspection with the CMM in the temperature-controlled room, but cylinder blocks are regularly pulled from the production line and measured as a part of the QA process.

Those cylinder blocks that don't receive a full CMM inspection still have their critical dimensions verified during the final inspection before receiving a serial number.

The attached picture was taken in the inspection room of the factory making the new cylinder blocks.




Paul Shinn's 2 New Engine Kits

A recap of the issue: Paul Shinn and his engine builder Willie stated they found dimensional problems with the 2 "New Engine Kits" in their possession and the first YouTube video published by Paul said that it will take $4800 to correct the problems if parts were taken from both "New Engine Kits" to make one running engine.

In the first video, Paul and Willie said the crankshaft and camshaft are not parallel by 0.007 inches, the crankshaft has a 0.005-inch runout, and the main bearing caps cannot be shifted sideways because they have dowel pins to locate them.

As many who monitor this forum know, Paul's video created a lot of backlash from those familiar with the "New Engine Kit", and it generated a lot of comments questioning his approach from those familiar with proper measurement techniques. Due to this backlash, Paul removed that video from his YouTube channel.

Paul created a second video – here is the link: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_G1AAkefQ ). In this video there was no further information regarding measurements, data, technique, etc. He stated he was committed to working with us (the manufacturer of the Burtz Block) by taking new measurements of the parts he believes are out of spec and posting his findings along with the original Ford engine drawing specifications. We agree with this approach; we asked that he identify each block and take specific measurements. To date, are still waiting to see his findings or response on the forums.

In response to Paul’s comments on the forum that he wanted to be rid of his block kits, I did offer a full refund to him via email sent on August 30th and asked for pick up information for the block kits. He replied that he wanted to work with us to make this outcome a “win-win” for the Model A community. We are still waiting for information regarding his measurement data and information related to the measurement technique.

It cannot be overstated we are very concerned about QA and if there is a problem, we need to know about it as soon as possible. Paul and Willie, please reply to this thread and post your measured dimensions, or let everyone know what your plans are for the 2 "New Engine Kits" in your possession.

[Fullraceflathead]

I've worked in quality control and also have operated the “CMM” Coordinate Measuring Machine for more than 30 years and I will say this, they are capable of measuring within Millionths of an inch. They will definitely measure any deviation compared to the drawing requirements.

[Bob Bidonde]

Ditto fullraceflathead's comment. During my rotation in Production Engineering, I saw and depended upon CMM. There is no way a human can compete with the accuracy of CMM.

[duke36]

Since these new blocks aren't turnkey completed and delivered to the customer as short or long blocks, how does a warranty actually work?

[Terry, NJ]

I saw that video and I wondered if he might have trusted "Willie" a little too much. I can't say right now what the items were, but there was maybe acouple. However, The .007 runout of the crankshaft was not one of them. This is inexcusable! I believe it was in the boring of the cylinders. But lets try to go back to 1928-1931 and ask ourselves, was Henry really holding the perfect machine dimensions that we seem to think are necessary? Remember, that's what tolerances are for.
Terry

[alexiskai]

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Originally Posted by duke36

Since these new blocks aren't turnkey completed and delivered to the customer as short or long blocks, how does a warranty actually work?

In most states, the UCC (uniform commercial code) says that items sold have an implied warranty of merchantability, meaning the item is fit for the "ordinary purpose" for which a consumer would buy that item. In this case, the ordinary purpose is "to build a working, reliable Model A engine," so any defects in workmanship would be assessed according to their impact on that purpose. That's above and beyond any express warranty stated in the product materials by the manufacturer. Manufacturers can disclaim the implied warranty, but I don't think that was done here.

[JRLampl]

Originally Posted by duke36

Since these new blocks aren't turnkey completed and delivered to the customer as short or long blocks, how does a warranty actually work?

In general, our parts are warranted to conform to the engineering documentation including material, dimensions, surface finishes, heat treating, balancing, and appearance.

[Kurt in NJ]

Where is this engineering documentation found, is it published online?

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

Where is this engineering documentation found, is it published online?

Kurt,

The engineering documentation is proprietary information.

Most of the engineering documentation consists of SolidWorks files created by me to model the "New Engine Parts".

The interface dimensions for attaching original parts are not proprietary and can be found on the original Ford drawings available from the archives.

If you have a specific question about anything, I will be happy to answer your question.

[alexiskai]

I think his question is, if the parts are warranted to conform to a spec which is a trade secret, how would a consumer know that they could invoke the warranty?

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I think his question is, if the parts are warranted to conform to a spec which is a trade secret, how would a consumer know that they could invoke the warranty?

Alexiskai,

There are no trade secrets regarding material, dimensions, surface finishes, heat treating, balancing, or appearance. These items are what is covered by the warranty.

The above items have been discussed in detail at the MARC and MAFCA National Meet seminars in a 90-slide show presentation. The slides include all drawings from China that specify the material requirements, GT&D dimensions, tolerances, surface finishes, heat treatment, depth of heat treatment in various areas, and the balance requirements.

The specifications are on the drawings from China. If a consumer like Paul Shinn has a problem, we will ask Paul for measured dimensions. If the dimensions do not agree with the drawing from China, we will have the questionable part sent to a modern qualified machine shop to double-check the questionable dimension.

The SolidWorks files are the "Creative and Unique" part of this project and are worthless unless you or someone else wants to send them to a third-world country for production. The drawings also have some proprietary information like the location and angles for the drilled lubrication passages.

The SolidWorks files do not specify material, tolerances, surface finishes, hardness, balancing, or surface finish for appearance. If I sent the SolidWorks files of the cores for the new cylinder block to you, what information would be of value to you?

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good afternoon...I have one question...other than Paul, has anyone else with a new block found that they could not build a quality engine from the parts Terry and RL supply? Ernie in Arizona

[duke36]

The initial warranty question was not in any way to diminish all the effort expended
in producing new engines for our A's. If for example ,the Burtz package was sold to one of the Model A vendors who sell parts including the new 5 bearing engine and warrants their assembled engine for say 90 days or longer, then the warranty is fairly clear with the vendor sole source. But if the package is sold to a lay consumer who hires a shop to put the short or long block together, how is that warranty, if implied or otherwise, addressed?

[nkaminar]

Terry, NJ,

I agree that Paul trusted Willie too much. The runout of the crankshaft journals is not real. What Willie measured was the runout of the center holes which could have been damaged or the crank could have been ground without relying on the center holes. As many people have stated, the end journals need to be set up on V blocks and then the runout of the rest of the journals taken.

Paul has helped many people in the Model A hobby through the years. But he is a journalist by training and not a machinist or automotive engineer. In my opinion he needs to get a second or third opinion by taking the parts to other machine shops.

Regarding the precision in the plant that built the Model A's: I am constantly amazed at how accurate the original parts were. Even the Model T was built to very close tolerances. Ford invested heavily in the tooling to produce his cars. The precision in today's cars is greater, of course.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Originally Posted by duke36

The initial warranty question was not in any way to diminish all the effort expended
in producing new engines for our A's. If for example ,the Burtz package was sold to one of the Model A vendors who sell parts including the new 5 bearing engine and warrants their assembled engine for say 90 days or longer, then the warranty is fairly clear with the vendor sole source. But if the package is sold to a lay consumer who hires a shop to put the short or long block together, how is that warranty, if implied or otherwise, addressed?

duke36,

Our parts are warranted as stated in previous posts. If your builder finds a problem with our parts during assembly, please have him contact us and we will work with him to solve any problem.

If your builder does not follow the "Builders Guide", or modifies our parts, your builder assumes all responsibility and our warranty does not apply.

A 90-day warranty is nothing. Please look for an engine builder that can warrant his workmanship for a much longer period of time. Dennis Kliesen, a home builder has over 22,000 miles on his new engine, and Dave Gerold (Durable Performance) a professional engine builder has over 18,000 miles on his new engine.

[Billybob57]

It baffles me that a company that is in the process of promoting a new product would be so critical of concerns identified. Personally it makes me think your trying to hide something. Welcome to the buisness world!

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

I believe the offer of full money back refund in return of the two blocks is the gold standard. Why won't he take the offer? Has he done machine work on the blocks?
Is he only out to discredit Terry?

Paul Shinn wants to get rid of those two blocks. He has options. Return the blocks.Take the money. Build a made by Ford original. Buy a Donovan block Take his chances with the other guy who claims on Ford Barn to be producing a similar product.

Posting on a public forum was neither honest or ethical. He should have gone directly to the manufacturer.

Richard
Anaheim CA

[TomInCologne]

Originally Posted by Billybob57

It baffles me that a company that is in the process of promoting a new product would be so critical of concerns identified. Personally it makes me think your trying to hide something. Welcome to the buisness world!

...and what sort of business world is that? There may be a quality problem with his product and Terry keeps us all informed of what happens, happened and what will happen in the future. Of course he is defensive re his product, he is, and should be, proud of it. This is how we want our suppliers to be, maybe you prefer producers who ship a product and then 'forgetaboutit'.



After this whole calamity started off on the wrong foot, why not just stay in the shadows and see how the two involved parties sort it out and you stop bitching. I have a lot of respect for Paul Shinn (i learned a lot from his videos) and Terry (i couldn't have engineered that block). I am looking forward to them keeping us informed. WE, and that obviously includes you, will learn a lot here.


Sorry for the rant.

[Billybob57]

I'm just saying name calling ( he called Paul a drunk) because someone critiqued your product is pretty childish. Buisness owners should have thicker skin than that! Folks need to grow up and act like adults! And bitching? You wrote a book!

[LeonardS]

Originally Posted by Billybob57

I'm just saying name calling ( he called Paul a drunk) because someone critiqued your product is pretty childish. Buisness owners should have thicker skin than that! Folks need to grow up and act like adults! And bitching? You wrote a book!

He NEVER called Paul a drunk. You should read that post again.