59AB head stud question

[Sid]

I just freshened up a 59AB. Installed Navarro heads. New ARP studs. I used the ARP thread sealer. I gooped the hell out of the studs. Fired engine up and have about 15 total weepers. Not spraying but weeping. I have pulled 1 stud from each head and you would probably say I'm lying about gooping these studs. Very little remaining on the studs. I am going to go the Permatex route. I have also heard some people having success using a camphor flat washer and an o ring. Question is which is better choice. Permatex #2 from the tube Permatex 80017 (Avaition) in the can which is pretty runny or Indian head Permatex??? Anybody have any thoughts on the o ring camphored washer trick. I am plannind on pulling 1 stud at a time and re torque then move to the next one.

[Tinker]

Indianhead is real decent sealant.


But you shouldn't need any. I've used anti-sieve for different reasons on headbolts, but it does about the same.


If they are just weeping, give it a bit and re-torque. Weeping usually cures it's self over time.






.

[JSeery]

When you say you gooped the hell out of the studs, most of that is going to be squeezed out if the threads are properly tight. Any washer and o-ring at the head surface would not be a good idea IMO. If it did seal it would trap the liquid around the stud in the hole in the head. Head studs weeping is fairly common on a new engine.

[cas3]

he's got aluminum heads, he needs washers, no?

[Tinker]

Yes, but I thought it was more about not galling the aluminum. But yes, Most add washers on aluminum heads. I did.

[ABento]

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I generally have good luck with the Permatex Teflon thread sealer, I just installed a rebuilt Dodge flat 6 and the shop used ARP also, a few of them weeped and the Teflon sealed them, I'll have to ask the shop if they used the ARP sealer also.

[Sid]

I need to use washers with aluminum heads. I have also heard of some folks running a camphored flat washer (camphor down) with an o ring under it to also help seal. 7/16 i.d 9/16 od 1/16 thick. I don't think the o ring would on the surface but slightly in the camphor and the stud hole.

[Pete]

My studs never leak.
I use black high temperature RTV and screw them in wet, finger tight, then back them up 3 degrees. I let them sit overnight that way. The next day I clean up any squeeze out with acetone so the silver paint I use on the gasket does not get contaminated.
I machine the first thread out of the stud holes so it doesn't get pulled above the deck when torquing.
When I have the block in the mill I also tap the head stud holes with a standard tap.
I want the studs to seat square with the deck on bare clean metal.

[solidaxle]

Did you tap the head bolt threads to clean them up? If so what type of tap did you use?

[Ol' Ron]

I don't use studs, did't know AARP made them. Yse steam pipe goop on the threads, Yes use washers on alum heads. Torque to 45.50 lbs for three heat cycles.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Sid

I just freshened up a 59AB. Installed Navarro heads. New ARP studs. I used the ARP thread sealer. I gooped the hell out of the studs. Fired engine up and have about 15 total weepers. Not spraying but weeping. I have pulled 1 stud from each head and you would probably say I'm lying about gooping these studs. Very little remaining on the studs. I am going to go the Permatex route. I have also heard some people having success using a camphor flat washer and an o ring. Question is which is better choice. Permatex #2 from the tube Permatex 80017 (Avaition) in the can which is pretty runny or Indian head Permatex??? Anybody have any thoughts on the o ring camphored washer trick. I am plannind on pulling 1 stud at a time and re torque then move to the next one.

Hi Sid, we do engines for a living and for as far back as I can recall we've used nothing but the Permatex #1 (hard-setting) sealer on ALL head-studs on the lower threads. We even use it with head bolts also.

I've never had a single Flathead stud leak and only occasionally on the dyno do we see some of the Chevies once in a while show some slight "seepage" of water. By the time the testing is done the leaks have stopped on their own.

(Add) Remember to back down the Torque numbers (by about 5# or so) when using any aluminum heads. This goes for all builds, not only the Flatheads. We use "moly" lube on all the nuts and washers on the topside. We don't care for ARP's "new" graphite-based fastener lube (photo below on the left side) they supply in their packages!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'll add this "tip" for what it's worth, on all fresh builds DO NOT install any anti-freeze until you are 100% certain there isn't a single drop of water anywhere! Most "minor" leaks WILL stop by themselves over a short period of time but not too quick with the anti-freeze in play. Also, as a safety precaution you can use the G.M. tablets as a long-term method to control any minor leaks. Here's a shot of the Permatex we use and a shot of the tablets!

[Sid]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I don't use studs, did't know AARP made them. Yse steam pipe goop on the threads, Yes use washers on alum heads. Torque to 45.50 lbs for three heat cycles.

Reds Headers carries the ARP studs depending which alum. heads you will run. Did not re tap threads but did do one heli coil.

[modeleh]

I thought it was a big no no to tap the head bolt holes?
That being said if there was a list of the top three mistakes to make when building a Flathead what would they be?

[tubman]

Originally Posted by modeleh

That being said if there was a list of the top three mistakes to make when building a Flathead what would they be?

Mine would be :

1. Using a machine shop not experienced in rebuilding flathead Fords.

2. Not thoroughly checking the blocks for cracks (magnaflux and pressure testing).

3. Not getting the water jackets in the block completely clean.

Actually, there is really only one : Any machine shop worth it's salt would know enough to do 2 and 3.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by modeleh

I thought it was a big no no to tap the head bolt holes?
That being said if there was a list of the top three mistakes to make when building a Flathead what would they be?

There's a whole bunch more than "3" but the ones here that would top the list are:

(1) not using a "block-plate" when finish-honing the block
(2) not drilling the lifter bores for adjusting the valves
(3) not using bronze-lined guides

We have a bunch of Flatheads in here at the moment (4 or 5, most are 8BA's) and not one will be done without any of above, it is "etched-in-stone" for the 3 I mentioned above here. We have many more also but make them "optional", basically a customer choice deal! Couple more helpful build hints come to mind quickly, 95% oiling mod and "pinning" the heads/gaskets to the block like the SBC's for instance.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. With respect to "cleaning" the old head bolt/stud holes, we've always used a conventional 7/16-14 hand tap (basic H-3 limit) and have not had a single "leaker" for as far back as I can recall using the sealing method in my earlier post above? The plate on the photo below is used for both the honing AND the "pinning" operation.

[Ol' Ron]

The stock Ford head stud had only 8/10 threads on the course end. This was so you could tighten the stud to the deck to prevent leaking. When using the studs you should torque them to the block 10/15 lbs with a sealer. This should solve your problems. I don't use studs so I don't have to worry

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by cas3

he's got aluminum heads, he needs washers, no?

The washer is not the issue, as stated they are required. It is the o-ring approach that was being commented on. I believe washers are used that are tapered on the inside edge coupled with O-rings. No personal experience, but just does not seem like a good approach IMO.

[tubman]

"Boy oh boy"; after looking over the responses to the "three biggest mistakes" from myself and Gary (GOSFAST), I think it shows the difference between professional and amatuer engine builders. I will admit up front that I have only built 3 flatheads, while Gary has probably done hundreds. That being said, I have only done the "drilling the lifter bores" exercise on one, but have never used a "block plate" when boring an engine and have never resorted to "bronze-lined" lifters. On the three engines I have built, all have turned out excellent and run great. First of all, Ford never did these things from the original builds, so in my opinion, they are not necessary, especially in an engine destined to be used on the street. Granted, if I were closer to his shop and had the scratch, I'd have these done in a heartbeat. On the other hand, I'll bet he does the last two on my list before he does any of his special operations.

His three suggestions are all great ideas and should probably be done on all out race motors, but they are too expensive for us "normal" guys on a fixed income. If you don't need them and are on a budget, I suggest that they are unnecessary and the kind of thing that contributes to the current view of the $8000 flathead build. My last build cost me $2100 (including used speed equipment) and runs great.

Good ideas? Yes. But the three most important? I don't think so.

[flatheadmurre]

We all have different aproaches of the way we do things...i do rebuild engines...not reassemble them so waterpumps and oilpumps gets rebuilt...a lifter can be resurfaced..
I do all the engine machining in house.
Installing a bronze liner in the guides is both cost/performance a good idee.
Pinning a head or using a torqueplate honing is not needed for a stock rebuild...
We are often over doing things in our quest for the ultimate...
I´m just a small one man show building about 10 flatheads a year...but with a core stock of about 250 blocks i do more blocks to go unassembled then fully built.