Battery

[mshmodela]

I think I might have discovered what I might have aid/caused the issue of my 14 month old 1-VHD interstate battery... I've seen it go dead twice in the past 3 months... The 1st time around I cleaned the connections, cleaned the ground strap to the frame and things were all fine....

Given that I drive my car once a week or maybe every 10 days for about 10-15 miles, there is not a whole lot of recharging going on my the generator so I once a week put a 2A changer on it until it auto turns off (typically charging for 1-2hr or less)... with that I have the battery caps removed... Worked out well until about 10 days ago when the battery was draw down to the point of the lights were almost not light (not enough current to even crank). The SG of the battery was a tad low but well within the good range... the top of the battery was clean... The battery was charging but it's voltage was still after recharge dropping with nothing attached (it's out of the car). to the low 5 volts....

I then did some searching and with a baking soda and water solution wiped the whole battery down... and then cleaned off that solution... Guess what? the battery voltage jump to about 6.3V... So..... what appears damn clear was not.... My guess is when I was recharging the small bubbles of gas likely landed on the top surface of the battery and make a connection between the two posts,i.e. a higher resistance circuit but not a short circuit.

We'll see if this is the issue... Stay turned...

[marc hildebrant]

You should not need to recharge the battery. Even a small amount of travel is adequate with a healthy battery.

I think that you are causing your own problem by using the battery charger.

Marc

[bambooboy]

why not just run car to charge battery,even at high idle&to keep down crankcase condensation.10,15 minutes up to max temp should do it once a week thru the winter. tom

[J Witt]

Mike, in the first cases when the battery went dead, was it in the car and hooked up, in other words, any chance of having some load on the battery that would pull it down? Ignition left on, a light on, something like that?

Lead acid batteries like to be fully charged and starter batteries are generally sensitive about being completely discharged, especially so if allowed to sit discharged. The duty cycle for starter batteries is intended to be a moderate discharge, followed by a fast recharge at 20 amps or so. Depending on battery quality it doesn't take many total discharges to ruin the battery.

Also, in your use of baking soda around the battery, you have to be ultra careful not to get any of it in the cells. Use only distilled water in the cells as well. Tap water often has chemicals that are bad for the battery chemistry.

The bubbles that are liberated when the battery is charged begin in the last phase of the charge and are hydrogen gas, surrounded by a film of battery acid (SO4). If your charger is generating a lot of bubbles, it probably isn't tapering to a float voltage which should be about 6.4 volts max. Constant overcharging can cause several battery ills, but generally shows up as depleting the electrolyte level in the battery.

Overcharging is the reason many people ran long trips with their lights on (my dad did this) to prevent "boiling" the battery.

Good luck with your problem,

John

[Mitch//pa]

if your car is charging correctly, no parastic draw, a model A does not need to be put on a charger...
my cars sit and get very little use, they always start right up and i never use a tender... i get 5 years out of a battery and change them out even though they are still good... if one wants to use an automatic tender in the off season fine or if you run an alternator that has a draw but in that instance i would rather use a master kill..
from your post i would check the charging rate with an ^^external meter^^, then ck for a draw..
all cables and connections need to be clean and tight..
addendum::
many people do not know how to properly fill a battery...

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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WARNING: Remove the caps when charging!!! I blew the top off Vermins' battery, doing a 2 Amp overnight charge!! The VENT holes in the caps had NEVER been punched out. "Maybe" they were left that way for shipping??? Be sure to check your caps' VENT HOLES.
Bill W.

[Patrick L.]

What is your charge rate ? It should keep the battery up even with the driving you're doing.

Have you used your trusty test light or volt meter and checked for a draw ?

If both those are good, seems like you have a poor connection somewhere or a bad battery.

[mshmodela]

Well, the baking soda clean batter spun up the model a like a top... I guess I have some things to learn on batteries and Model A... I will not charge it and will keep an eye if the battery... Change was 2A... as I mentioned the SG of each cell was damn good it appears the slight film cross the top (which was not really visible (not white) may have drawn down the battery..

[Cape Codder]

mshmodela - I'm no expert on the battery but I will say that if I have to charge my battery, which is not often at all, I always remove the cap, then gently lay it on top of the cell, but still get venting. This has eliminated the splashing while charging.

Mitch/pa - I would like to hear how to "properly fill a battery".

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Cape Codder

mshmodela - I'm no expert on the battery but I will say that if I have to charge my battery, which is not often at all, I always remove the cap, then gently lay it on top of the cell, but still get venting. This has eliminated the splashing while charging.

Mitch/pa - I would like to hear how to "properly fill a battery".

I don't want to speak for Mitch, but, to fill a battery, when checking make sure plate are covered and then fill almost to bottom of 'neck'. Use distilled water.

[billwill]

Your Battery was made in China and was a year old when you bot it Interstate dont tell you that Better Luck

[Mitch//pa]

Patrick thanks same thing I would have said... The plates must be covered,, and when looking down into each cell you will see a fill tube.. The level should be a the bottom of that tube. So basically that works out to 1/4" or so above the plates and at the bottom of the fill tube to an 1/8th below.
Overfilling you can expect to see acid on top of the battery..

Cape that's my story and I'm sticking with it

[Tom Wesenberg]

I restored an original generator for the 31 Delux Phaeton at the Gilmore museum. Before I installed it last Friday, I wanted to check the alternator for any parasitic draw, so I removed the wire from the alternator output and connected my Sperry meter in series. Even on the lowest milliamp scale, there was no meter movement. I expected to find at least a slight movement of the needle, but it didn't budge, so this alternator has no parasitic drain, or at least none that I could measure. The Model A museum has the alternator for sale to help raise funds to maintain the museum.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

WARNING: Remove the caps when charging!!! I blew the top off Vermins' battery, doing a 2 Amp overnight charge!! The VENT holes in the caps had NEVER been punched out. "Maybe" they were left that way for shipping??? Be sure to check your caps' VENT HOLES.
Bill W.

No vent holes in the caps is a rare thing - I've never heard of it happening but if they are there, why would you remove the caps to charge at 2 amps.
BTW, new batteries are transported dry. Acid is added just before they are sold/installed.
There are MANY Model As running around with 60 amp alternators that are putting 20+ amps through the battery after starting and the vent holes are plenty to allow the gasses generated to escape. Once that was pointed out to me a few lifetimes ago, I haven't bothered to remove the caps since.
Many modern cars have alternators capable of 100 amps.

[Cape Codder]

Mitch/pa - thanks for the explanation on the servicing. Crazy enough I basically I do the same which makes me happy. Sometime ago I would service a battery right to the top, not anymore.

By the way for some reason I thought you would have gone to the New England meet but forgot to ask prior to going my self.

[Smog Tech]

I was taught to leave the caps on while charging. They act as spark arresters to prevent igniting the hydrogen gas in the cells.

[Mitch//pa]

removing the caps or not can be a little subjective..
thats about all i will say

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Smog Tech

I was taught to leave the caps on while charging. They act as spark arresters to prevent igniting the hydrogen gas in the cells.

In the mid 60's I was charging a customer's battery in his car. I didn't remove the caps, but even worse, I didn't turn off the charger before removing the clamps. The gas exploded and the caps shattered as they bounced off the open hood. Luckily the battery was OK, and the station had some spare caps. The worst part is the customer was standing right there when this happened.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

In the mid 60's I was charging a customer's battery in his car. I didn't remove the caps, but even worse, I didn't turn off the charger before removing the clamps. The gas exploded and the caps shattered as they bounced off the open hood. Luckily the battery was OK, and the station had some spare caps. The worst part is the customer was standing right there when this happened.

embarrassing huh lol

maybe the caps had a blocked vent hole...
and you had it on superboost

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

embarrassing huh lol

maybe the caps had a blocked vent hole...
and you had it on superboost

Real embarrassing.

It was the spark that occurred when I removed the clamp with the current still flowing that set off the explosion. I was lucky they were push on caps, instead of screw on caps, which would have caused the whole battery case to blow apart.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

No vent holes in the caps is a rare thing - I've never heard of it happening but if they are there, why would you remove the caps to charge at 2 amps.
BTW, new batteries are transported dry. Acid is added just before they are sold/installed.
There are MANY Model As running around with 60 amp alternators that are putting 20+ amps through the battery after starting and the vent holes are plenty to allow the gasses generated to escape. Once that was pointed out to me a few lifetimes ago, I haven't bothered to remove the caps since.
Many modern cars have alternators capable of 100 amps.

Synchro,
My caps were moulded for vents, but there were membranes, blocking the holes.
When charging batteries, they are safer from explosion or fire, with the CAPS REMOVED!!! It's the PRESSURIZED GASSES THAT ARE DANGEROUS
I speak from experience, family friends have run a Battery Rebuilding/Sales shop, since the '50's & I'm knowledgeable of ALL the steps in rebuilding batteries.
Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Real embarrassing.

It was the spark that occurred when I removed the clamp with the current still flowing that set off the explosion. I was lucky they were push on caps, instead of screw on caps, which would have caused the whole battery case to blow apart.

you can place a towel over the battery to prevent spark from igniting the gas
i never did it tho....

[mshmodela]

A little more background. My car has a battery disconnect which is always open when i turn off the engine.

I took a paper towel soaked in backing soda water and with the caps installed wiped down the whole battery..

As I said, I believe my charging likely made my battery worse... time will tell...

[Tom Wesenberg]

One more thing I learned the hard way. If you have any battery acid touch your clothing, no matter how quickly you rinse it off.........it's too late.
Lost a brand new pair of blue jeans when I was in the 10 grade.

[J Witt]

For those who want to know more, this is a pretty good primer on how lead acid batteries work:

http://evbatterymonitoring.com/webhelp/battery_book.htm

John

[ian Simpson]

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Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

One more thing I learned the hard way. If you have any battery acid touch your clothing, no matter how quickly you rinse it off.........it's too late.
Lost a brand new pair of blue jeans when I was in the 10 grade.

As an apprentice one of my regular chores was to top up the batteries used as a backup supply for railway signals. They comprised a roomful of open top cells that could push out a couple hundred amps at twenty four volts for several days. Anyway, one day in a typical teenage trance I forgot to turn off the charger before walking between the battery banks. By lunch time I was down to my underwear, my coveralls, jeans and shirt were long gone. After they managed to stop laughing, my crewmates rounded up some spare coveralls so that I could slip out and buy some new clothes to wear home on the bus.

More seriously, when handling batteries be very careful not to short them between terminals with clumsy wrench usage. Even with the high internal resistance of a lead acid battery, there can be enough current flow to cause serious injury. I have witnessed a one inch thick pry bar melt like a fuse when dropped across a battery pack in an electric powered fork lift truck.

and remember ALWAYS DISCONNECT THE GROUND FIRST.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Synchro,
My caps were moulded for vents, but there were membranes, blocking the holes.
When charging batteries, they are safer from explosion or fire, with the CAPS REMOVED!!! It's the PRESSURIZED GASSES THAT ARE DANGEROUS
I speak from experience, family friends have run a Battery Rebuilding/Sales shop, since the '50's & I'm knowledgeable of ALL the steps in rebuilding batteries.
Bill W.

Bill, The membrane you mention is about what I expected to be the case from your original post. We can all be caught out by faulty goods. If the caps are good, there is no problem charging with them on. If they're plugged, well, we all know what that means.

[updraught]

The two multistage chargers I have can only be turned on once connected to the battery terminals.
Should stop any sparks.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by updraught

The two multistage chargers I have can only be turned on once connected to the battery terminals.
Should stop any sparks.

I have two Sears 6 amp 6/12 volt chargers. The early one from the 60's is great because it can charge any battery, but the newer one from the 90's won't kick on unless the battery has enough charge to turn on the circuit you just mentioned. As you mentioned, I guess it might be a safety thing.