Bob Drake's Cast Iron Headers

[rheltzel]

Has anyone here on the 'barn successfully installed a set of Bob Drake's cast iron headers on a 24 stud block in an otherwise stock '35 Ford which still has its original steering box? The tech adviser at Drake's says "...they should work", and I'm tempted to order a set on that semi-assurance, but it would sure be nice to know someone has already successfully done it before I go any further.

[rheltzel]

Btt

[blucar]

Just what do you hope to gain by putting headers on your '35?
The fact of the mater is that the only noticeable difference will be your wallet will be thinner...
If you want, "look at me" sound, a good set of dual exhaust with glass/steel pack mufflers will do the same thing. Larger pipes, 2"/2-1/4" will improve performance and sound.

[rheltzel]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[Menace Kustoms]

Headers don't improve the flow at all? The manifolds on my 34 look very restrictive to me.

[JSeery]

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Originally Posted by blucar

Just what do you hope to gain by putting headers on your '35?
The fact of the mater is that the only noticeable difference will be your wallet will be thinner...
If you want, "look at me" sound, a good set of dual exhaust with glass/steel pack mufflers will do the same thing. Larger pipes, 2"/2-1/4" will improve performance and sound.

I'm not sure that the larger pipes help any, may hurt some! Flathead exhaust is not the place to look for HP improvements. I run tube steel headers (just of the looks) and 1 7/8 inch dual exhaust. The 1 7/8 is claimed to provide the best sound and performance. But again, there is little to nothing to be gained in the exhaust department on a street flathead, it is all about looks and sound. And think about it, there is almost no street racing going on with these cars today, so sound and looks is about all there is!

[rheltzel]

Performance issues aside, I would still be interested in hearing about anyone else's experience installing Drake's cast iron headers. Anyone?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Menace Kustoms

Headers don't improve the flow at all? The manifolds on my 34 look very restrictive to me.

The authentic exhaust allows a stock flathead to breath just fine. You're not dealing with a big block Chevy here...
Headers on a stock flathead are for "looks" only.

[36tudordeluxe]

You won't go any faster, but will sound like you are! Read John W. Lawson's book FLATHEAD FACTS. Flatheads have problems getting air in, getting exhaust out not so much. Will say this, cast iron headers & 12" MELLOW TONE steel packs provide great sound.

[rustythumb]

where did you find cast iron headers in the drake catalog?

[JSeery]

rheltzel, think you are looking for fit responses and we are giving you performance responses. For my part that is because I have no idea on the fit! But at least all this activity keeps your question near the top of the stack. Maybe someone will see it and have a fit response.

[Ol' Ron]

John Lawson's (JWL) Book is probably the best Flathead book ever written, if for only one reason. It will tell you what you can expect for the money you spend on modifying your engine. The exhaust is only one issue.

[russcc]

Keep at here until some pipes up with the experience you are looking for. How long has Drake been offering them ? Start be asking Drake who they sold them to that had a '35, then check with that person. Ask the barn about Fentons in a '35 and see what they say, as they have been around forever. If you really want to change manifolds, and want to be sure they fit right, I would call Jim at Red's Headers in CA.

[40's rule]

You will NEVER get these from Drake. This is a part that they advertised for years but are not able to produce (sound familiar). They are supposed to be a copy of Fenton Headers but the patent is owned by Speedway Motors http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Fenton...kets,1726.html besides, Drake's Chinese could not figure this one out, so it was dropped. If you really want/need these would suggest Speedway or http://www.patricksantiquecars.com/speed_32_53.html who is the "caster" for Speedway (just won't have the Fenton Name).

copy from Drake's website...
1932-48 Ford Cars & 32-47 Trucks|1935-36|Engine ( Flathead ), Drivetrain & Mech.|Exhaust System
Exhaust Header Set; fits 1932-53 V8

Item Number: HR-9433

Your Price: $245.00 PR

Out of Stock

Qty:

Bolt-on that classic, old-school look with top-notch performance. Features precision-surfaced head ports for easy, leak-free mounting. Each pair comes with all needed gaskets and flanges. Not recommended for 1936 and earlier Fords with original engines, but are easily adaptable into these years fitted with 1937 & later flatheads. Most applications require a slight bending modification to the dip-stick tube.

[rheltzel]

If Drake's are (or would be if actually made) knock-offs of Fentons, I'm pretty sure, based on what I've previously read, that they will not fit without modification in a '35 with its original steering box. Odd that the tech guy at Drake's would say they "should fit" (operative word being "should") and wouldn't mention that they aren't available in his response. Makes you wonder...

I think I'll just stick with my old "box" exhaust manifolds and save some money. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions. I do appreciate it.

[scooder]

"Drakes Chinese couldn't figure it out so it was dropped" is a real ignorant statement if ever I heard one! The Chinese can and will make anything and everything to what ever spec or tolerance you require. If you want perfect in every way they can do it, if you want it made as cheap as possible and sod the tolerance and fit, they can do that too.
Up to a quality or down to a price, not a problem.
The issue is with the person who had them produce the part/parts. And he/she is NOT Chinese!
Martin.

[40's rule]

Ignorant is a relative term on this forum. It is entirely probable that the Chinese factory could not understand how to produce these and could not supply an acceptable sample, thus, "couldn't figure it out". Instead of throwing more money at it for no good reason "it was dropped". The idea of what any factory can produce in terms of quality or price is somewhat tainted.

[scooder]

Yes it's probable, but you would ask a foundry that cast parts out of cast iron to make them, would you not? That would be sensible wouldn't it?
Now a foundry would very, very easily cast this manifolds, it's a simple core type casting.
So the the probability that a proper production foundry can't cast those manifolds, well that's a very small probability. Isn't it.
I agree with you, ignorant is a relative term.
Martin.

[41LjH]

I was at Coker tire a few years back and was ready to buy a set of Fenton's for my 8BA. The counter guy said he would sell me a set but I needed to understand that the "new" Fenton cast headers were inferior to the originals. He suggested a set of Red's. Funny thing was the Red's were quite a bit cheaper. I had already bought a set of Sanderson's that would not clear the steering, so I bought Red's. They make a great product and the tech folks are very helpful.

[rheltzel]

Thanks, 41LjH. A friend recently called Red's and was advised that they are unable to continue production of their headers because they can't find qualified welders who will work at reasonable wages. They hope to go back into production at some point, but for now, they're out of business. A real bummer from so many different perspectives.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by rheltzel

Thanks, 41LjH. A friend recently called Red's and was advised that they are unable to continue production of their headers because they can't find qualified welders who will work at reasonable wages. They hope to go back into production at some point, but for now, they're out of business. A real bummer from so many different perspectives.

Believe that is in reference to Red's steel tube headers.

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=rheltzel;1086763] Red's are unable to continue production of their headers because they can't find qualified welders who will work at reasonable wages. QUOTE]

Once some of that HOPE & CHANGE kicks-in, everything will be wonderful again. DD

[JSeery]

[QUOTE=V8COOPMAN;1086768]

Originally Posted by rheltzel

Red's are unable to continue production of their headers because they can't find qualified welders who will work at reasonable wages. QUOTE]

Once some of that HOPE & CHANGE kicks-in, everything will be wonderful again. DD

Got to Love it!

[rheltzel]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Believe that is in reference to Red's steel tube headers.

Yes, JSeery, it was.

[rheltzel]

Is it any wonder we can't seem to make anything in this country anymore? The public schools no longer teach trades, and even if they did, how are we supposed to compete against Chinese labor rates, especially when the consumer insists on paying the lowest possible price, regardless of quality? Maybe large scale industry like the auto industry can rely more and more on robots and other high technology, but small industry, like Red's Headers is stuck.

But may I suggest that my original question has been addressed and that this thread has exhausted itself?

[Ol' Ron]

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Why work, when you can go on welfare.

[42merc]

rheltzel asked what time it is, and everyone tells him how to build a watch.

[rheltzel]

True, but it's okay...I've enjoyed the tangents and the discussions have most likely save me a couple hundred bucks by convincing me to just use my old manifolds. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by 42merc

rheltzel asked what time it is, and everyone tells him how to build a watch.

That is just silly, no one was talking about building a watch, we were telling him how to build headers!

[russcc]

That is sad news. I talked to Jim Davis a couple years back and they had labor problems at that time. Great product, and great company supporting it. Hope they can find a some good welders. If they have to pay more, their products are worth whatever they cost.
A side story about a mfg company I worked with in the US. They made jet engine and air frame components for GE. GE wanted to ship the job to China to cut costs, when the overseas folks looked at the prints, they said, "we can't make those pieces".

[Kahuna]

Now when did you say those new headers would be available?
Just kidding

[BABAR40]

Does Patricks in Arizona(?) still have the good repop Fentons?

[KGS]

Originally Posted by BABAR40

Does Patricks in Arizona(?) still have the good repop Fentons?

There is a set of fenton headers on e-pay right now.

[Henry Floored]

A couple things here guys. I have a set of knock off Fentons on my '41 Coupe. I had to grind the corner of the steering box to get clearance. The dipstick tube WILL NOT fit which is a pain is a neck. If I had it to do over again I would have used tubular headers. Much more user friendly.

Now I'd like to give my opinion on exhaust improvements on stock Flatheads. I'll start by stating that I have never built a Flathead Ford stock or otherwise without carefully removing restrictions from the exhaust ports. It is standard operating procedure for me. Haven't we all looked at water moving downstream in a creek or river? Ever notice how the water acts when it encounters a nook or cranny? It becomes turbulent and even flows backwards doesn't it? Well guess what, the same things happen inside our beloved Flatty's exhaust passages.

"But Mike who cares, we're only interested in putting around town, we don't care about racing or horsepower". Glad you mentioned that because I submit to you that our Flatty's will run cooler with more efficient exhaust. Imagine a Flathead Ford on a run stand with no exhaust manifolds at all.( I have actually done this) You fire her up to observe exhaust port behavior. I don't know the feet per second of the exhaust flow at various engine speeds but I can guarantee you that at idle it's quick, at 1200 rpm it's a massive and at 2000 rpm it's unreal. The flames come straight out of the center port and the flames from the end ports flow at 45 degrees or even less to the side of the engine block. The little pockets along the exhaust ports will cause flow eddys and thus hot spots straining the cooling system even more.

I feel that we can improve the ability for our engines to run hard and run cool by simply improving our exhaust flow. Now porting a block is not an option except during a rebuild but why on God's green Earth would we not perform a "bolt on" improvement by simply installing low restriction exhaust manifolds?

Furthermore it is my belief that whenever possible Ford Flathead exhaust headers should be "W" shaped with careful effort given to not trying to turn the supersonic exhaust charge in the end ports yet again right after it exits the block.

This is all my opinion but I have been rewarded with cool running engines. They have proven themselves on the road rather than a dyno which I do not own nor have access to at this point. Take this for what is worth.

[JWL]

In my book are the facts about the power and cooling capabilities of headers. The facts do NOT coordinate with the above opinion.

[scooder]

Henry floored,
On a stock flathead engine I don't think the exhaust manifolds are a restriction. If you look at the size of the port at its start right next to the guide, it's tiny this obviously hurts flow. Now look at the manifold end of the port, the exhaust gas slams into a wall at right angle, this must play havoc with any flow, let alone the violent exhaust gas bouncing a shock wave back up the port. It's gota turn 90 degrees towards the front or back of the engine (weather it's the rear or front port) then it hits another flat wall were the port comes out. Meanwhile trying to get through still very small opening through this series of turns, I can't get much knuckle through that gap.
After all this hurt through the block? Even the early smaller exhaust manifolds look like the wide open world to the exhaust gas.
This is why headers don't make a difference on a stock port flathead in my opinion.
Proper porting changes everything I believe, if you can get the exhaust gas out of the block nicely without all these 90 degree turns, then the manifold plays it's part, properly tuned for length would make a difference, ONLY if you get the exhaust out the block nicely.
On a stock flathead the porting in the block is the restriction not the manifolds.
I do agree with you on the W shape header being the best shape, but they are far to short to play a roll in tuned length.
Martin.

[Kahuna]

I'm in 100% agreement with Henry Floored.
I also have strong feelings about center exhaust port dividers

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

I'm in 100% agreement with Henry Floored.
I also have strong feelings about center exhaust port dividers

For or against dividers? Seems like a good idea, but all the dino results seem to show no or negative results. What's your take and what is it based on?

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by scooder

Henry floored,
On a stock flathead engine I don't think the exhaust manifolds are a restriction. If you look at the size of the port at its start right next to the guide, it's tiny this obviously hurts flow. Now look at the manifold end of the port, the exhaust gas slams into a wall at right angle, this must play havoc with any flow, let alone the violent exhaust gas bouncing a shock wave back up the port. It's gota turn 90 degrees towards the front or back of the engine (weather it's the rear or front port) then it hits another flat wall were the port comes out. Meanwhile trying to get through still very small opening through this series of turns, I can't get much knuckle through that gap.
After all this hurt through the block? Even the early smaller exhaust manifolds look like the wide open world to the exhaust gas.
This is why headers don't make a difference on a stock port flathead in my opinion.
Proper porting changes everything I believe, if you can get the exhaust gas out of the block nicely without all these 90 degree turns, then the manifold plays it's part, properly tuned for length would make a difference, ONLY if you get the exhaust out the block nicely.
On a stock flathead the porting in the block is the restriction not the manifolds.
I do agree with you on the W shape header being the best shape, but they are far to short to play a roll in tuned length.
Martin.

Scooter it sounds like we agree. I have given all this quite a bit of thought over the years.

I would like to add a little bit more on this subject so here goes:

The Flathead Ford, to my knowledge is the only side valve "vee" type engine that runs exhaust ports through the block. If you look at early prototypes of Henry's venerable V8 you would notice that the end exhaust ports exited the block up high and were carried down by a bolt together exhaust manifold. All of the exhaust ports were connected down in the normal location by this muti piece exhaust manifold. In a very interesting side note these early prototypes had very graceful looking exhaust manifolds that featured gentle curves for good flow.

Now I have not had a chance to look at too many early blocks but I have had a couple apart. I noticed the edge of the end exhaust ports as they exit the block has a nice radius to it. That was not put there by accident. In later engines that became a sharp edge which hurts the cause. I can only assume as the demand for more production became evident, some attention for detail went by the wayside.

Looking at this even further still we come to the Lincoln 337 engine. Now that is a late design premium engine with no where near the need for high production numbers that the basic Flathead Ford had to adhere to. If you have one to look at take a gander down into the end exhaust ports. You will find beautifully design end port exhaust passages. They are curved and flow gently away all the way from the valve seat to the port exit. There are no sharp turns or harmful pockets of "no flow".

Next if you will, look at the French Flathead. This truly is a Flathead Ford engine built under license by the French Military. There were however many small or not so small differences in these engines. Looking into the end exhaust ports it's the same thing as the Lincoln. Smooth gently curved and efficient. I highly doubt the engineers responsible for making a military spec engine would make any change whatsoever if they didn't see some merit to it.


I am not claiming to be 100% correct I'm just saying that common sense has pushed me in a direction that engineers were doing long ago and not so long ago in the case of the French Flatty's. When I started doing the exhaust port mods I did not know of the early V8 exhaust port differences. Nor had I ever seen a Lincoln 337 apart or even hear of a French Flatty's. It's only when I discovered all these things that I had some outside satisfaction that I was on the right track.

Going back to the question. Do headers make a difference on a stock block? Well I can't argue with someone's dyno tests if I don't have numbers to back up my case. I do believe there has been tons of testing done on how exhaust back pressure affects engine behavior. I have never seen a heavy truck or auto based boat engine designed without high volume exhaust manifolds.

In closing let me say this. If you only drive your Ford on and off the trailer, around the fairgrounds or two miles away to the lawn chair car show then I would agree, stock manifolds are fine. If you would like to actually drive your car on primary roads, pull grades or maximize that sporty Flathead Ford feeling then I think decently designed exhaust headers are a plus. Unless the dyno can and has measured Flathead Ford performance under all different conditions and for waaay more than 15 sec dyno bursts I will remain skeptical.

[jerry shook]

First let me say i am not versed enough on flatheads to question anyone on this subject. I do know that ive been told the first thing to reduce engine heat is to put dual exhaust on. this come from men who have owned and run flatheads for many years. on the two i have put headers and dual exhaust it made a big difference in reducing the eng temp. I don"t worry about overheating anymore weather in town or out on the road. some times i think the eng would run better if it ran a little warmer.

[hotrodA]

[QUOTE=42merc;1086845]rheltzel asked what time it is, and everyone tells him how to build a watch.[/QUOTE/]

LOL! That's the way of the 'Barn. Gotta love it.

[John R]

Henry, thanks for your informative and thought-provoking posts on this topic.

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

.....The Flathead Ford, to my knowledge is the only side valve "vee" type engine that runs exhaust ports through the block.....

FWIW, the 30-31 Oakland (and 32 Pontiac) V8 engine ran the exhaust through the block. However, the Oakland design was much better (thermally) than Ford's. In the Oakland, the exhaust exiting the right bank of cylinders passed across the top of the engine through an external manifold (heating the carb in the process) and joined the left bank manifold. Then the combined right and left exhaust passed through a single passage in the block between the front and rear pairs of cylinders, exiting out the side of the block. The block was a single casting.

[42merc]

Henry Floored & scooder, I'm with you on the thinking.

Now back to the watch building. Fenton cast iron headers are a " FIT ALL PRODUCT ", which means they don't fit anything well.
Just have your muffler shop bend up a set of duals using the stock exhaust manifolds, use your choice of loud mufflers & everything will be good.

[rheltzel]

Thanks, 42 Merc. That's what I've decided to do. What Henry Floored and Scooder say makes sense intuitively...the easier it is for the hot exhaust gases to get out, the less load there should be on the cooling system.

Just received my Brockman "Mellowtones" today (really fast service, by the way). It's off to the muffler shop later this week. I plan on saving some money by not purchasing any kind of headers and instead, use my existing manifolds.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the advice and knowledge. I now not only know how to tell time, but how to build a watch, too!

[42merc]

Originally Posted by rheltzel

Thanks, 42 Merc. That's what I've decided to do. What Henry Floored and Scooder say makes sense intuitively...the easier it is for the hot exhaust gases to get out, the less load there should be on the cooling system.

Just received my Brockman "Mellowtones" today (really fast service, by the way). It's off to the muffler shop later this week. I plan on saving some money by not purchasing any kind of headers and instead, use my existing manifolds.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the advice and knowledge. I now not only know how to tell time, but how to build a watch, too!

I have Brockman's on my '40, love em'.

[scooder]

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To clear possible ambiguity,
I fully agree with JWL's findings on the dyno in his book 're headers on a stock block. And I believe the reason that they don't make a difference is the hurt and disruption to the exhaust gas before it gets out of the block. All the damage is done before the exhaust gas gets to the manifold. Therefore changing the stock manifolds for tube headers don't make a difference.
Can't argue with the facts from his dyno testing.
Martin.

[deuce_roadster]

My engine machinist tested on a dyno and found the stock manifolds out performed the Fenton headers. I have tube headers on my roadster purely for looks. (pictures in public album)

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by scooder

To clear possible ambiguity,
I fully agree with JWL's findings on the dyno in his book 're headers on a stock block. And I believe the reason that they don't make a difference is the hurt and disruption to the exhaust gas before it gets out of the block. All the damage is done before the exhaust gas gets to the manifold. Therefore changing the stock manifolds for tube headers don't make a difference.
Can't argue with the facts from his dyno testing.
Martin.

Probably right. Who can argue with a dyno and scientific testing. I think it misses the point a little bit though and I have a hard time articulating my point sometimes.

We've got a lot to think about if a restrictive log manifold doesn't hurt power. I thought I explained that the exhaust ports need some improvement which is why I always take measures to do so.

I think we have touched on a subject that needs a little more attention.