How have you kept your engine warm at night outside?

[Old Henry]

In my recent winter road trip I discovered that my 59A flathead just would not start below 20° in spite of a strong battery and 20W-50 oil until I had towed it to a garage and warmed it up some. So, if I am to be able to count on it starting that cold on future road trips I will need to keep it warm overnight outside of the motel so it will start in the morning. These are the ideas I've come up with and my thoughts on them:

1. Magnetic oil pan heater that attaches to the bottom of the oil pan. I've actually tired that. The biggest one I found was 300 watts. It was a little awkward to put on the oil pan at night and not recommended to be left on there while driving in case it came off. The 300 watts power was not enough to heat the engine up enough to make any difference.

2. Oil dipstick heater. That would be easy to install at night but only comes in 90 watts so would not probably be enough to help.

3. Water recirculation heaters. These can be bought very powerful - 1500 - watts and heat the block by recirculating the coolant through the heater. Would probably work the best but would be hard to install to heat both sides of the flathead engine. One could go in the heater line on the passenger side but would only heat up that side. Would probably take a second one for the driver's side but I don't know how that could be installed on that side.

4. Plain old space heater. Right now I'm probably gravitating toward this idea - just stick the heater in the engine compartment on high aimed at the engine and close the hood. It puts out 5,000 BTU's at 1500 watts and seems like it would keep the engine bock, water, oil and battery warm enough to start on the coldest morning.

I wouldn't mind anyone's thoughts on these or other ideas, even if just wild speculation, but would really like to hear the real life experiences of any that have actually dealt with this problem and found a solution.

[Binx]

Kat's makes an electric silicone heating pad that you glue to the bottom of the oil pan with silicone sealant. I had one on my Toyota pickup in Alaska. Worked okay but engine always started anyway since it is fuel injected. Where it really needed to be was on the gearbox on sub-zero days.

Lonnie

[Lanny]

Henry, have you checked out lower radiator hose heaters.
1 in each lower hose would keep her nice and toasty.

Do a google search for lower rad hose heaters,
pretty easy to install, usually..... good luck.












.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Lanny

Henry, have you checked out lower radiator hose heaters.
1 in each lower hose would keep her nice and toasty.

Do a google search for lower rad hose heaters,
pretty easy to install, usually..... good luck.
.

Thanks. I did look at those. Couldn't figure out how I'd ever get them in that very short hose in the very short distance there is between the radiator and water pumps on my 59A, especially since the right side has the heater T in it.

[ken ct]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks. I did look at those. Couldn't figure out how I'd ever get them in that very short hose in the very short distance there is between the radiator and water pumps on my 59A, especially since the right side has the heater T in it.

First thing I would try is a lighter oil like 10x30 might be enough to turn over easier in cold weather.Ive been using 20x50 for yrs and it does turn a little slower but always started up. Worth a try. ken ct. Also run the car at a fast idle 5-10 min with everything off to get a good charge at the battery before shutting down.

[189j40]

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I would try to figure out why it want start.

[Alaska Jim]

Old Henry, Kats makes a recirc. heater that goes in the heater hose, but the flathead with it's 2 "separate cooling system's" it would probably only heat half of the eng. I have torn down flatheads here in Alaska that have had one head bolt replaced with a head bolt heater. this consists of a heating element that screws down into the head and is torqued like a normal head bolt. I have not seen them for sale in years, but I have not looked either. you may find them in the Kats, or Zero-Start brand. Ck at Napa, or CARQUEST. other than that ,I would go with the silicone pad on the oil pan. I have one on my C%%%y pick-up on the trans pan and the eng. oil pan along with a freeze plug heater. I don't know if a freeze plug heater is available for a flathead they can be a pain to put in depending on the recommended location. you would have to knock out an existing freeze pug to put it in. it is a coin toss as to what is available, and what you feel is worth the trouble. For what it is worth I think coolant heaters work the best, as they keep the block, pistons, etc. warm. they do help heat the oil just by the coolant radiating heat through al the metal parts, also helps bring operating temps up quicker ( faster hot air at the heater and defroster). take your pick--hope this helps----Jim

[Flowmeister]

My 51 Mercury flathead has dual headbolt block heaters.
Both made by Carter

[Alaska Jim]

Old Henry--P.S. I have in an emergency ( no eng heater) have used a drop light with a 100 watt bulb lying against the eng. block. if you do this you must use care to keep it away from any thing flammable, and not to close to any wiring or plastic.----Jim

[Straightpipes]

My old man always had Ford junkers to drive back and forth to work in the frozen north. He would put a light bulb under the hood and throw an old blanket over the hood on the outside. Also seen him bring the battery in for the night. Also used an old electric heating pad over the engine.

We would use a blowtorch to warm up the tractor pan back on the farm but the Fords always leaked too much oil to do that!

[189j40]

I'm sure you don't to hear this but I would try to figure why it want start.

[52merc]

all fire engines have a keep warm thingy in them

[J Franklin]

Try a shot of starting fluid. 10-30 oil is good too.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 189j40

I would try to figure out why it want start.

Originally Posted by 189j40

I'm sure you don't to hear this but I would try to figure why it want start.

It was too cold.

The engine was cranked at starting speed. There was current to the coil. The points were turning the coil on and off. There was plenty of gas - I could tell because the cranking speed increased when I choked it and I had the electric fuel pump on. I bypassed the coil resistor to get extra current to the coil. Even tried starting fluid. All elements to start were there. It had started and run fine the night before and as it warmed up in the garage I had it towed to and continued to try to start it every few minutes it finally started firing a little then gradually fired more and more times in a row until it finally started.

It was the same problem I had trying to start it on cold mornings to get to high school 45 years ago. I'd usually have to have someone push me bumper to bumper with their car for a while to get it going.

Any other ideas?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Try a shot of starting fluid. 10-30 oil is good too.

Tried a bunch of starting fluid. Didn't help. The engine was cranking at starting speed with the 20W-50 oil. The spark plugs were just not firing or not firing enough. (See previous post)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Flowmeister

My 51 Mercury flathead has dual headbolt block heaters.
Both made by Carter

My engine actually had those on it when we bought it in 1959. (See the plug on the head bolt?)



You can see the cord that was hooked to those through the grill.



That was on this trip to my Great-grandfather's house that's now a bed and breakfast.



They were there until it was rebuilt in 2008 when my rebuilder destroyed them getting them out of the block and didn't replace them. Can't say they worked really great but were better than nothing. Just did a quick search for them on the internet and didn't find any. Know where to get them?

[Sixseven]

Do you have an oil bath air filter that could be over-choking your engine? You wouldn't know your compressions would you?

[ford38v8]

All these ideas on why it wouldn't start... Old Henry's simple answer "It was too cold" works for me.

Without the proper combination of fuel/air/fire, there will be no ignition. The vaporization of fuel being the missing element, the carburetor and intake manifold had to warm sufficiently to make that happen, then you have what you need to start the engine.

[expavr]

I used 10-30 wt oil and an old heating pad laid across the engine of our VW which worked well down to about 10*. After that it was a call to AAA for a jumpstart. The trick will be finding a place to stay on your travels that has an exterior outlet to run an electrical cord to your car.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Tried a bunch of starting fluid. Didn't help. The engine was cranking at starting speed with the 20W-50 oil. The spark plugs were just not firing or not firing enough. (See previous post)

If it's spinning fast enough, then must be something in the ignition system not delivering enough spark...I left out the fuel delivery since you used starting fluid.

Might ask Jim Linder what could hamper a stock system when cold, maybe time for an upgrade to electronic?

[RCM]

Hi Old Henry.
Cant imagine other solutions than the ones already pointed, but, risking going offtopic, I want to ask if you keep you car outside and what weather protection do you give Old Henry.
Thanks

[Bruce in southern OH]

Old Henry, with the temp this year being in the negative range equipment we receive has a battery wrap/pad that plugs in to 110 Volt. This works wonders on the man lifts. With the motels you have to stay at the high wattage heaters would be hard make work, finding a receptacle that would handle the load. This one is just 60 watts. I am sure there are others.
.
KAT'S Heaters/120 Volt 60 Watts 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 in. battery pad heater

Part Number: 22400

Alternate Part Number: BH4
.
Also, if you can use a momentary push button that by-passes the ignition resistor when starting. This will give the coil additional voltage (hotter spark)

[BILL WZOREK]

Old Henry:
The Mag oil pan heater & dip stick heater are really only Maintainers that help Martainn the all ready warm engine / That is why such low wattage.
The best type is the water circulating ones but you all ready talked about the install headache.
Henry may not like it but when at home leave him out side on a cold night have the engine up to operating temp. install the pan heater and see what that gets you.

When you used the starting fluid did you remove the air filter or did you spray under the filter trying to get it through the oil bath? ( as mentioned before the oil in the oil bath filter may be to heavy) try starting with cover off the filter.

The last thought I have is you have had your share of electrical problems this past year,
I know you don't want to hear it but it may be time for a complete wiring up grade.
Before Henry Makes a Ash of him self.~ just a thought~

[oldford2]

Professor,
I would try installing a jumper with a toggle switch to bypass the resistor when starting. This will give 6 volts to the coil instead of 4 thru the resistor and make for a hotter spark. Easy to do and helps in all starts hot and cold.
John

[1952henry]

Originally Posted by Alaska Jim

Old Henry, Kats makes a recirc. heater that goes in the heater hose, but the flathead with it's 2 "separate cooling system's" it would probably only heat half of the eng. I have torn down flatheads here in Alaska that have had one head bolt replaced with a head bolt heater. this consists of a heating element that screws down into the head and is torqued like a normal head bolt. I have not seen them for sale in years, but I have not looked either. you may find them in the Kats, or Zero-Start brand. Ck at Napa, or CARQUEST. other than that ,I would go with the silicone pad on the oil pan. I have one on my C%%%y pick-up on the trans pan and the eng. oil pan along with a freeze plug heater. I don't know if a freeze plug heater is available for a flathead they can be a pain to put in depending on the recommended location. you would have to knock out an existing freeze pug to put it in. it is a coin toss as to what is available, and what you feel is worth the trouble. For what it is worth I think coolant heaters work the best, as they keep the block, pistons, etc. warm. they do help heat the oil just by the coolant radiating heat through al the metal parts, also helps bring operating temps up quicker ( faster hot air at the heater and defroster). take your pick--hope this helps----Jim

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A15725581

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

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Back in the 50's my daily driver and only cars was old flatheads. They never failed to start and we have a lot of below nothing mornings here in Me. I remember one morning in 55 it was -30* below nothing. My only car was a 35 coupe with a stock 59Ab, It fired right up and got me to work. Walt

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by oldford2

Professor,
I would try installing a jumper with a toggle switch to bypass the resistor when starting. This will give 6 volts to the coil instead of 4 thru the resistor and make for a hotter spark. Easy to do and helps in all starts hot and cold.
John

Doesn't the stock system already have a resistor bypass in the starting circuit?

Later Fords certainly do.

[Joe KCMO]

I leave it my 80 degree garage. When I want to warm it up, I leave it outside during the day and it heats up to 86 degrees. Not to worry north people, spring is just around the corner. :-)

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

Doesn't the stock system already have a resistor bypass in the starting circuit?

Later Fords certainly do.

Older fords have a single post solenoid. You could add a 2 post (4 terminal) 6 volt solenoid to a earlier vehicle to give 6 volts to the coil for starting.

6 volt 4 term ford tractor solenoid.
http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/ford_..._2676_prd1.htm

[Shadetree]

I remember back in the good ol' days when the Fords were considered the best to start in cold weather. The reason given: The starter turned the engine faster than other makes.

True story. When I was first married I bought a 1954 Pontiac from my brother-in-law as a second car for $75. Later traded it for a 1963 Corvair and gave big bucks difference. One cold morning the Corvair refused to start and I walked to work. Just as I arrived at work my old Pontiac flew by with it's new happy owner!

[richard rink]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

All these ideas on why it wouldn't start... Old Henry's simple answer "It was too cold" works for me.

Without the proper combination of fuel/air/fire, there will be no ignition. The vaporization of fuel being the missing element, the carburetor and intake manifold had to warm sufficiently to make that happen, then you have what you need to start the engine.

Alan makes an excellent point. On the coldest mornings I aim a heat lamp at the carburetor and intake manifold. Despite slow cranking, the engine starts and keeps running.

Richard

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by RCM

Hi Old Henry.
Cant imagine other solutions than the ones already pointed, but, risking going offtopic, I want to ask if you keep you car outside and what weather protection do you give Old Henry.
Thanks

Car is kept in an insulated garage that rarely gets below 60°. Only problem starting is on road trips after a night sitting outside the motel below 20°.

Thanks for asking.

[Old Henry]

Looks like a lot of good ideas. The challenge will be to find a motel with an outside plug. But, I used to do it back when the engine still had the head bolt heaters in it so probably can again. One more reason to stick with the little old dive motels where I can park right at the door. The real old ones have enough gap around the door to run the wire from my room if necessary.

Thanks for the help.

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Older fords have a single post solenoid. You could add a 2 post (4 terminal) 6 volt solenoid to a earlier vehicle to give 6 volts to the coil for starting.

6 volt 4 term ford tractor solenoid.
http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/ford_..._2676_prd1.htm

Wasn't the bypass integrated into the ignition switch (and not the solenoid)on earlier cars?

[keith oh]

Professor, With an ignition system that dirty, plug wires and plugs dirty and if you have a radio, probably carbon center wires that are broken down, it is no wonder you would have starting trouble. Even dirty spark plug porcaline will rob power. Back in the 40s the only cars on my dads used car lot you could depend on to start on 0 degree days was the flathead fords. Clean all the wireing, Have the coil checked (Skips in Fl.) change the spark plug wires and I will bet it will start on the coldest days. My old 35 does even with medeoaker compression. "Have a nice day" Keith oh

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Old Henry:
When you used the starting fluid did you remove the air filter or did you spray under the filter trying to get it through the oil bath? ( as mentioned before the oil in the oil bath filter may be to heavy) try starting with cover off the filter.

Originally Posted by Sixseven

Do you have an oil bath air filter that could be over-choking your engine? You wouldn't know your compressions would you?

I do have the original oil bath heater. I removed it to squirt the starter fluid into the carburetor when trying to start it.

Haven't checked compressions since engine was rebuilt in June.

[Flowmeister]

I'm not sure where you could find head bolt block heaters.
It was a delicate operation to get them out without damaging them.
Mine were located more central on the head, pretty much right under where your oil filter is.
I cleaned them up and bench tested them, they got real hot real fast.
I'll be reinstalling them for the novelty if nothing else.

[Tinker]

Mike, what John is talking about will work excellent. It's just a couple wires and a toggle switch that loops around the resistor (the original resistor is under the dash, also best to use a toggle that you have to hold in the on position, when you take your hand off it automatically goes to the off position). I guess you could start from the ignition switch too.

The solenoid version will only be on when the starter button is pushed. It is automatic on/off.

***If this is what you are asking: best to my knowledge there was never a factory bypass. This was a modification that was done by the owner. Best to my knowledge anyway, which is just that :]'


.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by keith oh

Professor, With an ignition system that dirty, plug wires and plugs dirty and if you have a radio, probably carbon center wires that are broken down, it is no wonder you would have starting trouble. Even dirty spark plug porcaline will rob power. Back in the 40s the only cars on my dads used car lot you could depend on to start on 0 degree days was the flathead fords. Clean all the wireing, Have the coil checked (Skips in Fl.) change the spark plug wires and I will bet it will start on the coldest days. My old 35 does even with medeoaker compression. "Have a nice day" Keith oh

I'm thinking you may be thinking I'm still running the engine as pictured in earlier post. That was it's condition after sitting outside 31 years. It's been rebuilt twice since, the last time in June.


Everything is pretty new and clean - plugs, wires, distributor, coil rebuilt by Skip Haney.



Runs great at all temperatures but doesn't start below 20°.

[tubman]

I've read all of these, and I haven't seen any mention of a frozen gas line. This used to be quite common up here in Minnesota, and we would throw in a can of "Heet" every fill up or two. This was especially a problem on cars that were usually kept in heated garages and left to stand outside occasionally (condensation in the tank). With the stock fuel system on a flathead, any bit of restriction on the flow is going to cause problems.

Also, when I was in college, I had a '52 as a daily driver with a "weak" engine. I had a 1200 watt tank heater on it and never had a problem starting it. Believe me, keeping one bank of a flathead at 120 degrees on a sub-zero day is really all you need to do.

[don-wi]

Change the oil to 10-30 and take the battery out and bring it into your motel room. Install it in the morning when your ready to leave. If its really cold and windy find a big blanket to put over the front of the car to keep the wind from blowing through the engine compartment.

[BILL WZOREK]

" Runs Great at all temperatures but does't start below 20* "
Old Henry~ time to pack up & head down to visit Vic For the.
" BARNERS BASH Feb. 28th to March 2nd "
It will definitely recharge your dry cell / or what ever else you need charged up.
Henry might say thank you !!!!!!

[Mart]

Originally Posted by tubman

Also, when I was in college, I had a '52 as a daily driver with a "weak" engine. I had a 1200 watt tank heater on it and never had a problem starting it. Believe me, keeping one bank of a flathead at 120 degrees on a sub-zero day is really all you need to do.

^^ I was thinking much the same - although the two sides of the block are not connected, the water in the radiator connects the two sides. A heater in the opposite lower hose to the heater connection can only help. The engine does not have to be toasty warm, it just wants to be a few degrees warmer than outside, once it catches it will warm itself up.

I have had some experience of block heaters in Timmins, Canada, but there were all on modern cars.

[Randy in ca]

I just flew thru the previous posts, but unless I missed something it sounds to be electrical to me. The impression I have is that the engine is turning over well enough, it just doesn't fire. Having started engines in extremely cold conditions (-35 to -40) with starting fluid (ether), an engine in normal running condition will usually fire even if it's barely growling over. That stuff is extremely explosive so use with care. Did you have the choke open when you gave it a shot of starting fluid? (then close before cranking - easiest with 2 people or else really hussle!). If not electrical it's hard to imagine what else would cause no firing using ether other than all your valves being stuck open which doesn't seem very likely!! Good luck.

[2ndgeer]

Henry,
Although I've enjoyed your well prepared and presented travel stories I've never posted to thank you for them because I couldn't offer any solutions.
Here's one that you probably won't try but it worked for the roommate of a friend of mine. They attended the University of Alaska in Fairbanks. Every night the roommate (who drove a Jeep) drained the oil out of the engine into a large pot. He heated the oil on the stove every morning and poured it back into the engine in the morning so it would start.
Yeah...probably too much work....

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by Randy in ca

I just flew thru the previous posts, but unless I missed something it sounds to be electrical to me.

It was, indeed. The coil had current, even extra by a jumper bypassing the resistor, the points were turning it on and off, but the spark at the plugs was miniscule to nil. No reason that I could think of other than the cold. The coil was recently rebuilt by Skip so I think it was OK.

[blucar]

This topic brings memories from long ago of when I lived in Idaho and a short stay in the SLC area..
From my experience, the Ford V8's were always hard starting in the winter months.. You could always count on your buddies with a "Stove Bolt Six" to give the Fords and Mopars a push... Had a neighbor when I lived in Idaho Falls during the '40's-'50's that had a '28 Ford, that damn thing would start at 30 below when nothing else would..
Block heaters have been around in one form or another as long as I can remember, of course the problem is finding a power supply when your away from home.
My son in-law that lives in central Montana uses a propane weed burner to start his trucks and tractors during the winter... 25 below at his place last week, the high was 10 below..
I have found that the flat head Ford engines will crank at low temp's but won't start. I came to the conclusion that the cranking of the engine drew to many amps, leaving minimal amps for the ignition..
It has pretty well been proven in recent years that the big problem is the windings in the coil.. (Non paid commercial for Skips coils)
A second problem with old cars is the six volt systems.. Six volt systems have very high resistance, much higher than 12v.. Not my opinion, this was told to me by an automotive engineer..
The weight of the oil can be a problem.. The recommended winter weight of oil use to be 5w. Modern cars generally use 5/30 which would leave a trail like a snail from a EFV8..
For a practical solution I would suggest the following:
W-40 makes an excellent starting fluid for an engine, much better than the common over the counter Ether based fluids that can wash the cylinders dry of lubricants..
Carry one of the self contained 12v starter battery packs in the car.. Nothing will fire up a flat head Ford quicker than a 12v boost..
As a general practice, when I lived in Idaho we used 8v battery's in our 6v cars, this helped start them in the winter..

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by tubman

I've read all of these, and I haven't seen any mention of a frozen gas line.

That could have been except that when I pulled the choke out it cranked faster and I could smell the gas coming out of the exhaust pipe so concluded that I was getting plenty of gas. Even turned my electric fuel pump on just in case it was vapor locked! (Yeah, sure.)

[blucar]

A simple solution to the problem of hard starting just occurred to me.
Treat the Ford the same way you would an un-cooperative female, snuggle up real close to the engine, taking same to bed with you in the nice warm room if necessary. Of course you might have to move the wife outside for the night.

[BILL WZOREK]

What am I missing about the tank water heater even though the engine is basically 2
Why won't taking the water from the inlet side of the heater ( lower radiator hose )and then put it back in on the other head Via. near where the temp Gage is.
Would that not circle the water????
Or better yet People run two temp Gages why not put in a t draw water from One side and put it back on the other side in a T at that side. making sure the tank heater in below the the water is coming in from / there is no pump in is it works like a Coffey maker the heated water is pushed through the line.
This way it would travel from where the water comes back in to the engine through the stats through the radiator to migrate back to where it will do the cycle all over again.

[George/Maine]

Something for show and tell today.
I recently bought and engine out of a 53 pickup 8rt.
It has block warmers both sides.
In the day I would think they worked well.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

Back in the 50's my daily driver and only cars was old flatheads. They never failed to start and we have a lot of below nothing mornings here in Me. I remember one morning in 55 it was -30* below nothing. My only car was a 35 coupe with a stock 59Ab, It fired right up and got me to work. Walt

Yeah Walt, and without excuses, you understand what a "well-maintained" vehicle really means, including all of it's ancillary systems. DD

[billwill]

With 20 50 oil your lucky if ever starts

[don-wi]

You would be surprised what a warm battery will do in the cold weather.

[done4]

Just a thought, have you tried running a higher octane grade gas in the winter? My dad would burn premium in the winter months in Wisconsin.

I tried it on my OT 56 car which runs cold as a widows heart and it actually seemed to help. I only run her to November so I don't know if it would make a difference in the heart of winter.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Yeah Walt, and without excuses, you understand what a "well-maintained" vehicle really means, including all of it's ancillary systems. DD

If there is something more I could do to "well-maintain" my vehicle I don't know what that would be. I think Old Henry is probably maintained as religiously as any flathead there is, particularly any that are driven over 1,000 miles per month, in accordance with all manufacturer recommendations that I have been able to find and used to create the maintenance schedule attached. If there is some maintenance item that I might have missed that would affect cold starting please tell me.

[dp1743]

If you use a lighter weight oil, it should help considerably. Years ago I had a Chrysler K car with a 2.2 liter engine. With 20w-50 oil it would turn over but not start (fuel injected). I replaced it with 10w-40 and never had another problem starting in cold weather.

[Barlea]

Back in the early sixties as an apprentice, ten year old Fords were plentiful and cheap, and with a fresh good battery and 10W oil most of them would start without being plugged in at 20 below zero. They don't even need particularly good compression as long as the valves are still good. Two headbolt heaters were normal equipment here in Alberta and made it a lot easier though. If your Ford started quickly in the summer, it would usually cold-start come winter, but a battery that's just OK will never get you to work reliably in the winter. ..B.

[PeteVS]

You stated that there was very little spark at the plugs. That's gotta be the problem. Unfortunately, I don't know how to check out anything quantitatively or how to find a problem in the high voltage side. Rotor? Cap? Do high voltage components fail in cold temperatures?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

You stated that there was very little spark at the plugs. That's gotta be the problem. Unfortunately, I don't know how to check out anything quantitatively or how to find a problem in the high voltage side. Rotor? Cap? Do high voltage components fail in cold temperatures?

I lean toward blucar's analysis and explanation that the draw on a cold 6 volt battery steals current from the coil enough to reduce or eliminate the spark. Makes the most sense to me.

Originally Posted by blucar

This topic brings memories from long ago of when I lived in Idaho and a short stay in the SLC area..
From my experience, the Ford V8's were always hard starting in the winter months.. You could always count on your buddies with a "Stove Bolt Six" to give the Fords and Mopars a push... Had a neighbor when I lived in Idaho Falls during the '40's-'50's that had a '28 Ford, that damn thing would start at 30 below when nothing else would.. . . . I have found that the flat head Ford engines will crank at low temp's but won't start. I came to the conclusion that the cranking of the engine drew to many amps, leaving minimal amps for the ignition..
It has pretty well been proven in recent years that the big problem is the windings in the coil.. (Non paid commercial for Skips coils)
A second problem with old cars is the six volt systems.. Six volt systems have very high resistance, much higher than 12v.. Not my opinion, this was told to me by an automotive engineer. . . . Carry one of the self contained 12v starter battery packs in the car.. Nothing will fire up a flat head Ford quicker than a 12v boost..
As a general practice, when I lived in Idaho we used 8v battery's in our 6v cars, this helped start them in the winter..

However, with my recent starting problem I eventually had the tow truck's huge 12 volt battery jumped to mine with two sets of heavy duty cables so I doubt that was the only problem.

[Mike B]

Henry,

I wonder if you could take your coil off, stick it in the freezer over night, try to be quick and install it, and see if she fires right up, or not.

Might even try the condenser next, but not at the same time.

I know all you Utahans have deep freezes for the Elk/Deer to get ya through for the year

I used to hunt up on what was called "Skyline", way back when, used to look down at the clouds!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Henry,

I used to hunt up on what was called "Skyline", way back when, used to look down at the clouds!

I did a day trip over Skyline weekend before last here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ht=energy+loop

[PeteVS]

Here's an idea...
Check and see what your spark looks like when the car is just out of the garage. I seem to recall that Briggs and Stratton had an adjustable device for checking arc length from lawn motor magnetos. Something like that might give you a good idea of how good the spark is at good temperatures. Check the primary voltage at the coil while the engine is cranking. Then, let it sit outside for a night and check spark and primary voltage when cold. If primary voltage is way down, see if a second battery powering just the ignition can get a better spark. If primary coil voltage is good, but spark is weak, look into replacing cap and rotor. Traveling, it might be possible to have a small 12V gel cell that you could take into your nice warm room overnight and do a quick hook up in the morning just to get the darn thing running. Make sense? Another point to consider might be moisture. It might be possible that as low as the dew point is out there in the dry lands, a cold night might push the temp down below that dew point and you might be getting frost in or on the high voltage components. Could be that you've done a lot of driving in moist snowy, slushy conditions when this happens. (Once had a stovebolt six that wouldn't start. Cap and plug wires were all damp. Borrowed the neighbor's nice dry cap and plug wires to start the car and then switched back once the engine had warmed up and it ran fine. The damp set up could start a warm car but not when it was frigid.)

http://www.buyamower.co.uk/product/b...ter-19368.aspx

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I did a day trip over Skyline weekend before last here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ht=energy+loop

I watched the video, you must have gone later than we hunted (October/early Nov as I recall)...never saw that much snow.

We'd go through Provo Canyon (as I recall) past a town that had been washed away on the left....keep on trucking and Willie Nelson had a large ranch off to the right.

Seems as I recall, we'd pull into some small towm...fuel up...get supplies needed...drive out of town a bit, then head off of some road to the left...up the whole way...kind windee, not severe...get right up near the top and enter into dirt road...off to the left...travel back oh, geesh, 5-6 miles?...and make camp...

Now on that ridge we camped on, if you went left, down to the bottom and back up to the top, you'd hit a fence, and sign pronouncing "BLM land"

Now, you were able to drive around then hike up.

Sound familiar?

Beautiful country for sure.

I got to know the lay of the land over the years of hunting there, via the bunt forest and fallen trees.

[keith oh]

If you are not getting a strong spark with wire held close to head bolt then it is something between the plugs, assuming they are clean and gapped proper, and back to the coil. I am assuming Skip checked the capicator when he rebuilt the coil. The only thing left is the distributor and its components which needs to be checked for cracks, rotor for fouling and cracks and lastly maybe your spark is advanced to far, or a combinatiion of them all....... Maybe a pissed off student put a spitball under the coil wire end.

[Old Henry]

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Funny. The more I read all of the ideas about how to get my engine to start below 20° and why it doesn't the more it reminds me of all of the ideas for dealing with vapor lock. Two totally different problems dealing with extremes of temperature. After considering them all I think the solution for cold starting is, in fact, as simple as the solution for vapor lock.

To respond to all of the suggestions I haven't responded to yet:

I have a new battery and it works fine. Jumping with the tow truck battery cranked it faster but didn't start it.

Coil was rebuilt by Skip last year and works fine.

Distributor was new from Bubba's last year and works fine.

Spark is advanced all the way for my high elevation and works fine.

Ground wires are all new and connect to bare clean metal.

Spark from wire to head bolt above 20° is nice and healthy.

I have a spare 12 volt battery I keep charged up in the trunk to jump with when necessary and kept it in my motel room a year ago until time for the jump. Still wouldn't start.

Don't know much about dew point nor what to do about it. If that's the problem heating the whole engine compartment up should fix that.

Condenser is new from Bubba's and works fine.

After problem getting cranking speed last year because of S.A.E. 40 oil switched to 20W-50 for this winter. Ford recommended S.A.E. 20 between 10° and 30° so that seems about right. Thinner oil might help cranking speed but this engine wouldn't start at correct cranking speed anyway until warmed up.

Haven't tried using higher octane gas but understanding what that is and what it does and doesn't do I don't think that would help.

I jumped past the coil resistor to increase voltage to the coil but didn't help.

No spit ball under the coil wire.

So, having pretty much been through all of that analysis before, I concluded that there is nothing wrong with my system and that it just needs a little heat over night to start in the morning under 20°. That's why I asked what I did.

Thanks for all of the ideas anyway.

Wife and I (not Pepe this time) are doing a road trip to Lava Hot Springs, Idaho and Teton National Park for the upcoming Valentine weekend and am going to keep the entire engine compartment warm all night, oil, block, coil, battery, everything, and see how it starts in the morning. I'll report.

Thanks again for all of your responses. I really do appreciate it.

[scooder]

Right, firstly when you use your 12volt battery for jumping, how are you connecting this to your car? In your weak spark situation I would turn the ignition on then bang the 12 volts straight to earth and the starter. This way your getting full 6volt to your ignition system. Worth a go?
Secondly, These old Ford V8's have a well deserved good reputation of being able to start in a situation that most others won't, extreme cold being one if them. Walt for one mentioned this. (these are in the day's before swapping out points for electronic upgrades? And such) yours is showing a week spark at this temperature, it would be prudent to find out why. The extreme cold IS showing a weakness somewhere in your ignition system. (if other Ford V8's start at this temp, so should yours, if all the components are up to spec) I would suggest going through the ignition system step by step (ignoring the its new so must be good idea) in an open minded fashion. All of it including the ignition switch. I like the earlier suggestion of freezing the coil and seeing what that does on another wise UN frozen engine. I'm not saying that skips coil is no good, I rebuild distributors and carbs, I test these on a running engine and scope before they are sent out, but I don't freeze test them. You can't test for all scenarios most but not all. But this freezing the coil and test then condenser and test, is a systematic test. Pretty sure you'll find the weak part.
If you find that the coil is the part that don't like the real cold, take this off overnight to keep some warm in him, and refit and go in the morning.
Again just to reiterate, I'm using the coil as an example, not saying skips coils are no good,from what I can tell their pretty much the best there is.
And the importance of an open minded approach, "it's to cold" is no good when comparable stuff will fire and run at the same temperature.
Martin.

[Old Henry]

UPDATE. To study my cold starting problem more before heading to Teton National Park on Thursday I decided to leave the car outside all night Wednesday night to see if it would start so I could study why not if it didn't. Unfortunately the temperature only got down to 39° F and was up to 41° F by the time I tried starting. No problem at that temperature. Started fine.

So, we drove to Lava Hot Springs, ID for the first night of our Valentine's Day get away. We stayed in the Graystone Manor.



Now this was a pretty cool place. It was exactly the same age as Old Henry having been completed in 1947 after 17 years of construction with hand quarried stone. It was a Mormon church until 1979 when it was abandoned for 17 years and saved by purchase just two weeks before demolition by a couple who renovated it into a bed and breakfast and reception center. http://www.greystonelavahotsprings.com/

Although it had no outside plugs for my idea for keeping Old Henry warm at night it was on a hill so, worse come to worse, I figured I could coast downhill to start.

In the morning it was 26° F so I wasn't expecting a big problem. It almost started on the 6 volt battery but not quite. This time I had the big 12 volt battery from my one ton van in the trunk to jump from. It cranked it fast enough but every time it popped to start the starter motor disengaged and it wouldn't start. Tried over and over and finally decided it was going to take the hill.

Coasted backward down to the next intersection and around the corner up hill then forward downhill to pop the clutch in second. That eventually started it but it had to crank longer than usual before it started.

Ran fine from there but I looked forward to the Anvil Inn in Jackson Hole, WY where I had checked to make sure they had an outside plug to plug in.

So, that night I tried my idea for keeping Old Henry warm to start easier the next morning. It cost me nothing and took no permanent installation.

I brought along two $20.00 space heaters that I already had and my 6 volt battery charger. I set the two heaters on their lowest 600 watt setting and turned their thermostats just below maximum. I could have used one heater that could also be set for 900 watts or the full 1500 watts but wanted heat coming onto both sides of the engine and didn't want to trip the circuit breaker so set for total of 1200 watts. Then put one heater in the engine compartment on both sides of the engine,



put a blanket in front of the radiator to keep the heat from escaping through the radiator and grill,



put the battery charger in front of the blanket so that it wasn't in the heated space since it created its own heat and needed cooled instead of heated,



hooked the battery charger to the battery, closed the hood, and plugged it all in anticipating a nice easy start in the morning.

In the morning I opened the hood and felt the engine. I didn't have a laser thermometer but it felt like it was between 90 and 100° F. So was everything else in the engine compartment - the battery, the coil, the oil, the fenders, the firewall, everything.

So, got inside and tried starting it. Beautiful, just like a warm summer morning. No problem at all.

OK. It wasn't really a true test of starting below freezing where I've had my problems because it was 34° F. But, I'm totally satisfied that this system would work in any temperature.

Removed the two heaters, the blanket, and the battery charger and let the engine fast idle for a few minutes to warm it up a little more then shut it off and went back to the motel room to haul the stuff out.

Came out about 30 minutes later with our stuff, loaded it up, got in to start and no start. It cranked just fine but no pop at all.

I'd had the same problem the night before after parking it on the street downtown for about an hour while we ate. Got in to start it. Cranked fine but no pop. Got out, opened the hood, put a jumper to bypass the coil resistor and it started just fine. Did the same thing that morning and same thing - started just fine. Both times removed the jumper after starting and ran just fine all the way home.

So, I need to test that coil resistor to see if it's bad and not letting enough juice through to start or what else might be the problem.

If I had to leave the car outside all winter and start it every morning I'd likely install something more permanent like the block heaters. But, for just one or two frigid starts per year I think this system works just great. Even if I'd had to buy the two space heaters they would have been less than any other alternative and were temporary so could be removed without changing the stock system.

Just thought someone might like to know.

[Drbrown]

Like the guy in the Viagra commercial .... always tow a trailer with horses in it. If you can't get the horse to sleep on the engine to keep it warm, leave the car and ride him home before that darn light in the bedroom window burns-out .... (there's no spare light bulbs either).

P.S. ( There aren't any guardrails or curbs .... Why doesn't that Viagra guy just drive around the puddle in the road ???? Maybe it dulls his thought processes. )

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Drbrown

Like the guy in the Viagra commercial .... always tow a trailer with horses in it. If you can't get the horse to sleep on the engine to keep it warm, leave the car and ride him home before that darn light in the bedroom window burns-out .... (there's no spare light bulbs either).

Good one Drbrown ....and if this condition lasts for more than 4 hours, call your doctor

[911 STEVE]

A kid was ice fishing for the 1st time& not catching anything. He saw an old guy on the other side of the lake just reeling them in. He went over and asked him what his secret was. The old man mumbled a few times, the kid couldn't understand him so he went back to fishing with the same results. Finally the kid went over again to ask the secret. The old man spit out a bunch of goo & said "you have to keep your worms warm".

[mtflat]

I ran my 48 F1 for 10 years as a daily driver in nw Montana in temps down to -25F. Only ever used a small ceramic heater pointed toward the distributor and carburator. Never worried much about the oil. Set on hi heat and high fan it kept things dry and warm enough that with a little choke it would fire on command.

[PeteVS]

When you try a cold start and you say that the spark is weak, is it weak at the plug connection? And if it's weak at the plug, is it weak at the coil? I just have a feeling that you have a high voltage leak somewhere when a component gets cold. Having the engine warmed up a bit and then shut off might be letting the cap or the rotor or whatever get cold enough to fail even though the block and heads are toasty warm.

[Old Henry]

I think I'll install a coil booster line from the starter terminal on the starter solenoid to the battery side of the coil after the resistor (bypassing it) with a diode in the line to keep the current from running back to the starter and keeping it spinning after the solenoid cuts off (as happened to me when I tried the same thing before without the diode). That should help overcome the robbing of current to the coil by the starter, particularly when cold. Here are the details: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fil...k%20Start1.jpg

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

When you try a cold start and you say that the spark is weak, is it weak at the plug connection? And if it's weak at the plug, is it weak at the coil? I just have a feeling that you have a high voltage leak somewhere when a component gets cold. Having the engine warmed up a bit and then shut off might be letting the cap or the rotor or whatever get cold enough to fail even though the block and heads are toasty warm.

You are probably right but diagnosing which component is weakened or failing when below 20° is pretty tough. It hasn't been that cold here for quite a while. I hoped to do some of that before my last trip but it wasn't cold enough. I don't know of a deep freeze big enough to cool Old Henry down below 20° to do all of that diagnostic testing. The idea of freezing each component then installing it and testing it fast enough to keep it from warming up doesn't seem to have enough chance of success to try it. Much easier to just warm every single thing up on those one or two nights a year I've got to start below 20° plus install the fairly easy, cheap, and inconspicuous coil booster circuit I just described.

Thanks for your concern, thoughts and ideas.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by mtflat

I ran my 48 F1 for 10 years as a daily driver in nw Montana in temps down to -25F. Only ever used a small ceramic heater pointed toward the distributor and carburator. Never worried much about the oil. Set on hi heat and high fan it kept things dry and warm enough that with a little choke it would fire on command.

Those little cheap 1500 watt space heaters put out 5,000 BTU's! (And the ones that cost 10 times as much don't put out any more if they plug into household current.) I can warm my whole garage up in a very short time with three of them going. Glad to see I'm not alone using them to keep the engine warm and that they'll work way below the temperatures I've had trouble starting at. Thanks for the response.

[BillM]

I think that diode is connected backward for a positive ground system in the link you posted. See http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_...html#03247.png . Also a diode will drop about .7 volts across it; a momentary switch or relay would be more efficient.
Do you have any spare condensers on hand ?; it would be interesting to see what they measured after a night in the freeezer.

[Binx]

Originally Posted by 911 STEVE

A kid was ice fishing for the 1st time& not catching anything. He saw an old guy on the other side of the lake just reeling them in. He went over and asked him what his secret was. The old man mumbled a few times, the kid couldn't understand him so he went back to fishing with the same results. Finally the kid went over again to ask the secret. The old man spit out a bunch of goo & said "you have to keep your worms warm".

Reminds me of how my grandfather kept maggots (bait) warm while white fishing in winter when I was a kid in Mt. Yuck. I'd keep them in a container in my armpit. He was faster on the draw with them in his lower lip though.

Sorry for going off-topic. Couldn't resist nostalgia.

Lonnie

[russcc]

Couple tips from my friend Harold who ran a service station up in St Johnsbury VT for 25 years. Top notch mechanic who won the Chrysler Trouble shooting contest in high school, and held NHRA #16 Top fuel license. In the winter, 5W-20W oil. Turn the headlights on for 45 seconds before starting, warms up the battery. Pour warm water on the battery. A warm battery is a happy battery.

[Teich]

It reads like you have tested every thing, you bypassed the resistor and it wouldn't fire-that is the same as the starter relay with the extra terminal. When is the last time the starter was checked? It may be drawing all the power from the battery and leaving not quite enough power to run the ignition. Check the battery cables, both sides all the connections, ground at top of engine at firewall two places etc. If the engine turns it should start, you stated that you smelled fuel at the rear so it is getting gas just no spark. Laurie

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BillM

I think that diode is connected backward for a positive ground system in the link you posted. See http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_...html#03247.png . Also a diode will drop about .7 volts across it; a momentary switch or relay would be more efficient.

Do you have any spare condensers on hand ?; it would be interesting to see what they measured after a night in the freezer.

Thanks for the info. It was very helpful.
Without the coil booster circuit the coil is already getting 3-4 volts through the resistor so I only need 2-3 more volts out of the booster circuit to make up for what the resistor is taking away so a .7 volt loss out of 6 will still leave plenty to make up for the 2-3 volt loss.

I may just freeze one of my extra condensers and see how it changes its capacitance.

[bigvince]

I once worked with a guy that came from the northern area of Ontario Canada and he told me it wasn't uncommon for folks to simply light newspapers under the car to heat up the oil. Don't do this at home!

[1952henry]

Old Henry, I have one of these. Never tried it and probably won't. Must have been the cat's meow back in the 50s.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=6

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I think I'll install a coil booster line from the starter terminal on the starter solenoid to the battery side of the coil after the resistor (bypassing it) with a diode in the line to keep the current from running back to the starter and keeping it spinning after the solenoid cuts off (as happened to me when I tried the same thing before without the diode). That should help overcome the robbing of current to the coil by the starter, particularly when cold. Here are the details: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fil...k%20Start1.jpg

Henry,
You can bypass the resistor by installing a Ford solenoid from a later car. They have built-in resistor bypass. There's no need to start messing with diodes and such.

Regretfully, there's nothing you can do to prevent the starter from robbing current, and more to the point, we're not worried about CURRENT to the coil because it's the VOLTAGE that matters. The battery is still the sole battery; running separate jumpers from the same battery does not isolate anything because everything still terminates at the same battery. Only a dual battery system would accomplish what you said.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

Henry,
You can bypass the resistor by installing a Ford solenoid from a later car. They have built-in resistor bypass. There's no need to start messing with diodes and such.

Regretfully, there's nothing you can do to prevent the starter from robbing current, and more to the point, we're not worried about CURRENT to the coil because it's the VOLTAGE that matters. The battery is still the sole battery; running separate jumpers from the same battery does not isolate anything because everything still terminates at the same battery. Only a dual battery system would accomplish what you said.

Thanks for your thoughts. I had considered your ideas.
A couple of problems I see in trying to use a later solenoid that has the resistor bypass terminal on it: 1) My research indicates that such solenoids were not used until the electrical system switched to 12 volt. I'm still at 6 volt so probably wouldn't work. 2) It costs more than a $2.00 diode. 3) It would not be authentic to my '47 and would be a more obvious alteration than merely adding another wire from my current solenoid to my coil. 4) Such would not save installing an additional wire since such would still be necessary with the later coil but would add the labor of removing and replacing the starter solenoid. So, all things considered, it looks like the diode is the better approach for me. But, thanks for your thoughts and suggestion.

As for the benefit of the coil bypass circuit for the starter robbing the voltage to the coil, here's how it does help. The coil should not really need the full 6 volts to operate correctly, let's say it only needs 4 but does need 4. With a full 6+ volts from the battery dropped a couple of volts by the resistor the coil gets what it needs - 4 volts. But, if the drain of the starter reduces the available voltage to only 4 volts and the resistor reduces that further the coil only gets 3 or less and doesn't work well. But, with the resistor bypass circuit, when the starter drains the voltage to 4 the coil still gets 4 and works fine. Of course, if the battery is not fully charged the voltages are even lower and nothing works right even with the bypass circuit and it all needs a boost from the 12 volt battery I keep in the trunk.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[Old Henry]

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Last night I installed the "coil booster" aka "resistor bypass" circuit from the starter terminal on the solenoid to the battery side of the coil. Wow! Does it make a difference! Haven't tried it with cold starting but the engine sure starts faster even at 60°. It used to crank for a second or two before firing. Now it starts as soon as I push the starter button. It was an easy install using the diode. Oh yeah, there was one more thing (next post).

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

Old Henry:
The last thought I have is you have had your share of electrical problems this past year,
I know you don't want to hear it but it may be time for a complete wiring up grade.

Last night as I was installing the coil booster/resister bypass circuit I discovered the likely cause of many of my intermittent electrical problems.
As I was running the new wire past the point where the ground strap from the engine connected to the firewall I noticed what looked like melted plastic on the end of that nut/bolt and wondered why. I pulled it off and realized it was the nylon insert for that lock nut I put on to lock it down on the connection so it wouldn't come loose. I touched the ground strap and it was quite loose! How that nylon lock nut came loose I don't know but it did. I replaced it with a regular lock washer, put some di-electric grease between the strap and the firewall (which I'd previously sanded clean of all paint) and cranked it down. Took a test drive and the starter worked a ton better and my generator charged consistently instead of intermittently like it has done annoyingly for quite a while.

Sometimes we just get lucky even if we're not very smart.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Yeah Walt, and without excuses, you understand what a "well-maintained" vehicle really means, including all of it's ancillary systems. DD

Originally Posted by Old Henry

If there is something more I could do to "well-maintain" my vehicle I don't know what that would be. I think Old Henry is probably maintained as religiously as any flathead there is, particularly any that are driven over 1,000 miles per month, in accordance with all manufacturer recommendations that I have been able to find and used to create the maintenance schedule attached. If there is some maintenance item that I might have missed that would affect cold starting please tell me.

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Last night as I was installing the coil booster/resister bypass circuit I discovered the likely cause of many of my intermittent electrical problems.
As I was running the new wire past the point where the ground strap from the engine connected to the firewall I noticed what looked like melted plastic on the end of that nut/bolt and wondered why. I pulled it off and realized it was the nylon insert for that lock nut I put on to lock it down on the connection so it wouldn't come loose. I touched the ground strap and it was quite loose! How that nylon lock nut came loose I don't know but it did. I replaced it with a regular lock washer, put some di-electric grease between the strap and the firewall (which I'd previously sanded clean of all paint) and cranked it down. Took a test drive and the starter worked a ton better and my generator charged consistently instead of intermittently like it has done annoyingly for quite a while.

Sometimes we just get lucky even if we're not very smart.

The above would be a prime example of what I meant when I previously made the reference to "well-maintained" and "ancillary systems". Hopefully, you now have some realization that changing oil and cleaning the breather cap (as noted in your earlier-posted maintenance schedule) represents only a drop in the bucket of what is involved when one finally understands what "well-maintained" really encompasses, especially when it come to an un-restored, antique automobile. DD

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

The above would be a prime example of what I meant when I previously made the reference to "well-maintained" and "ancillary systems". Hopefully, you now have some realization that changing oil and cleaning the breather cap (as noted in your earlier-posted maintenance schedule) represents only a drop in the bucket of what is involved when one finally understands what "well-maintained" really encompasses, especially when it come to an un-restored, antique automobile. DD

10-4 good buddy. I see what you mean.
Good thing I got lucky (again) since I didn't turn out to be too smart.
(Better add "Lucky" to my signature lest anyone suppose that my very good fortune actually comes from any superior skill level.)

[scooder]

So what made the difference, the resistor bypass or the tight earth (ground) connection?
The melted plastic on the earth point and a loose nyloc nut. How's this idea, earth connection gets hot nylon melts and nut comes loose? How clean is the other end of the earth strap? Big enough? Battery earth good both ends? Starter connection? In this scenario (heat, melt,loose nut) something's up, bad connection somewhere.
Worth a good looking over I fancy.
Martin.

[Old Henry]

This is my speculation and slight memory of why that strap may have been loose: After my engine was rebuilt last June I installed it, sanded off the paint under that strap, (new strap) and screwed it down with the nylon lock nut. Then, after the engine was broken in I re-torqued the head nuts and may have (have some slight memory) loosened that strap bolt on the firewall to allow the engine end of it to turn when re-torqueing and forgot to retighten it. So, it may well have been loose since then. So, when I tried to start, the current heated up that bolt and nut because of the loose connection and melted the nylon insert. It all fits with the way my starter has been struggling for months and the smell of burning I've had on occasion when I tried too long to start. The starter has not worked as well as it does now with that tight connection for many months.

Good thing none of that ever stopped me from having an absolute ton of fun, and even adventure, for 13,000 miles since then including eight road trips totaling 6,150 miles.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

That could have been except that when I pulled the choke out it cranked faster and I could smell the gas coming out of the exhaust pipe so concluded that I was getting plenty of gas. Even turned my electric fuel pump on just in case it was vapor locked! (Yeah, sure.)

This reply brings up another problem that happens quite often in really cold weather. If it cranks faster and you can smell gas, the engine is very likely to be flooded with too much gas.

That comes from too much choke. And in your case it is made worse by the electric fuel pump. The plugs get wet and foul, the extra gas washes all the oil from the cylinders and takes away the compression. That is why the engine suddenly cranks over faster.
Even at -20 F you need less choke than you think. Pull it all the way out for about one revolution and then push it back in about halfway until it starts. Then play with until it runs smoothly.

Starting any older car in the cold is a matter of getting to know the car. They all have personalities and you have to learn that by trial and errors. Some require little choke and others need more. Some need a pump or two on the accelerator but others will flood out if you even touch the accelerator.

If you grow up in the North you learn that pretty quick but if you are where it never gets really cold you may never get the experience. Strange things can happen to a car in the cold.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

This reply brings up another problem that happens quite often in really cold weather. If it cranks faster and you can smell gas, the engine is very likely to be flooded with too much gas.

That comes from too much choke. And in your case it is made worse by the electric fuel pump. The plugs get wet and foul, the extra gas washes all the oil from the cylinders and takes away the compression. That is why the engine suddenly cranks over faster.
Even at -20 F you need less choke than you think. Pull it all the way out for about one revolution and then push it back in about halfway until it starts. Then play with until it runs smoothly.

Starting any older car in the cold is a matter of getting to know the car. They all have personalities and you have to learn that by trial and errors. Some require little choke and others need more. Some need a pump or two on the accelerator but others will flood out if you even touch the accelerator.

If you grow up in the North you learn that pretty quick but if you are where it never gets really cold you may never get the experience. Strange things can happen to a car in the cold.

Yeah. It floods pretty easily when the spark plugs aren't firing well if at all.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[blucar]

Flooding an engine with fuel was a very common problem back in the day when Early Ford V8's were common every day drivers.. Usually the flooding problem was caused by the float and/or float needle valve sticking. However, the flooding could be caused by to much choke or pumping the throttle. A simple solution to the flooding problem was to just walk away from the Ford for awhile. Letting the car rest for awhile let the battery recoup and the fuel to evaporate..
Proper grounding is very often a problem that is easily overlooked. Like the use of a ny-lck nut, with only half as many threads, in lieu of a conventional nut and a star washer.. Many people are probably not aware of just how common the use of star washers were during the '30's-40's..
I recently had a problem on one of my projects involving power windows on a '30 model car.. I installed the windows which were made by a very good company in NC..
The windows worked perfectly, then the car went to the upholstery shop. When the car was ready for pickup after many weeks, the drives side window would not work and the passenger side would slowly go down, needing help to go up.
Questioning the shop owner about the problems, he went on the defensive, claiming the system was junk.. The wires were to small, no relays, and the switches were of poor quality.
He produced a system that he liked which used heavier wiring, relays and GM switches. The motors appeared to be heavier and the system was cable operated..
The system I have is gear driven, utilizing the original tracks and glass runs..
I told the upholster to leave the car alone, I was taking it home..
I called the widow manufacture in NC, told them my problem and was told that the system I had was based on a GM system that is common in GM car of the late '70's/80's.. I was also told that the motors were reversed polarity motors that were smaller because they did not need double windings to reverse the motors.. The problem was GROUNDING..
It took us two hours to find the problem, checking each wire and connector.. We finally found a ground wire that had been broken off at the connector, a result of the upholster pulling on the wire, in lieu of the connector. The installation of a new connector end solved the problem..
Of course the upholster did not want to believe me when I told him the problem. Of course the proper function of the windows was just shrugged off by him...

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Thanks for your thoughts. I had considered your ideas.
A couple of problems I see in trying to use a later solenoid that has the resistor bypass terminal on it: 1) My research indicates that such solenoids were not used until the electrical system switched to 12 volt. I'm still at 6 volt so probably wouldn't work. 2) It costs more than a $2.00 diode. 3) It would not be authentic to my '47 and would be a more obvious alteration than merely adding another wire from my current solenoid to my coil.

Henry I posted a link back at post 26 for a 6volt solenoid with the by pass post. $19. Put your resistor back under the dash like it was originally and the only thing on your engine that would not look original would be the solenoid and a wire. Once done you don't have to worry about a switch,diodes, or volts.

6 volt 4 term ford tractor solenoid.
http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/ford_..._2676_prd1.htm

I do like the diode setup though... ha :]'

[AKCJ]

Just read the entire thread and feel smarter (well, at least more informed).


I have a lot of experience starting cars in the cold and I agree with most of what was posted - especially the items from Alaska Jim even though he's from the warmer part of our state (joking).


The electric heaters can work well if you have access to electric power. When you're out of town you can use a camp stove (coleman or whatever) under the car. The newer backpacker stoves don't take up much room in the trunk. The open flames are somewhat worrisome so the stove method is not the best but it does work if you're in a pinch. You can put a frying pan on top of the stove to (sort of) provide a barrier between the flame and the engine. I've done this several times but don't do this if you're not sure of what you're doing.


I haven't used my Mr. Buddy propane heater yet for cold weather starting but it's an idea. Also, we used to use charcoal in a metal pan under the car before we got electric power at the cabin but that was back in the 70's.


Someone mentioned using high octane gas. This is not what you want for cold weather starting. The higher octane means the fuel is harder to light off. Good for higher compression engines for more power but bad for winter use.


Glad to hear the electrical problem is sorted out.

[Buzzard II]

Block heater (in freeze out plug hole) and 2 batteries starts my 7.3 International Diesel F-250. I also get instant heat! It's been in the teens and single digits and below zero a couple of times here in New Jersey this winter. Good luck! Bob

[Teich]

Read all the posts about Prof Henry's adventure starting Old Henry outside, thinking I have to do that as well. Thought about different ways to warm the engine stoves under the engine,oil pan heater held on the pan Henry's heaters??? So I went out today -41* on the wrong side of ZERO, key on let electric fuel pump do its thing pushed the start button-- it cranked and cranked then it fired then it ran lots of choke and pump the foot feed but it stayed running, Good thing I changed to 5-30 GTX in the fall, as Prof Henry found out if everything is as it should be the old Ford will run! Got it running so I can bring it into shpo to change the torque tube and repack wheel brearings for next summer. Laurie

[V8COOPMAN]

Anyone who "pumps the foot feed" is probably at least 29 years old. Haven't heard that term in eons. DD

[The Hot Rod Grille]

I bought this engine heater at Hershey in the early 1970's. It has a wire hook to hang it from the radiator support rods and another hook on the base to support it when hung over the wishbone. The label says to use white kerosene. I've never used it as I was a bit afraid to have a flame in the area of the fuel line and carb, but it is a cool shelf display item.

Jim

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Anyone who "pumps the foot feed" is probably at least 29 years old. Haven't heard that term in eons. DD

Not sure where you are going with this but the cold weather guys are posting some great stuff.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Anyone who "pumps the foot feed" is probably at least 29 years old. Haven't heard that term in eons. DD

Originally Posted by Tinker

Not sure where you are going with this but the cold weather guys are posting some great stuff.

I was merely trying to be careful and polite in my assumptions, because I've never heard the term "foot feed" used by anyone other than an OLD, OLD-timer. DD

[Teich]

V8COOPMAN- had more than 29 bithdays . How many "olds" do I get for 66bds? I like how you put that! called it that because used work on motor graders, they had a hand throttle and a foot control, we called the foot control the foot feed, just felt like I could call it that here Laurie

[HCO41]

I haven't read all the posts but have a source for a product some may find usuful. I was paging through my new Surplus Center catalog and saw "magnetic engine block heaters". 200 watt for $43.45, 300 watt for $68.05. Both use 120 volt AC.
There's also some generic 12 and 24 volt electric wiper motors that may be applicable to someones project.
Surplus Center
1015 West "O" Street St.
Lincoln, NE 68528
1-800-488-3407
www.surpluscenter.com
Lots of interesting stuff.
Howard

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Teich

V8COOPMAN- had more than 29 birthdays . How many "olds" do I get for 66bds? I like how you put that! called it that because used work on motor graders, they had a hand throttle and a foot control, we called the foot control the foot feed, just felt like I could call it that here Laurie

Well, I have had 62 BD's and never heard of a foot feed so somewhere between 62 and 66 seems to be the transition point.

[super flat]

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I have 58 bd's and heard foot feed from my dad lots of times!

[Old Henry]

Discovered another great benefit of finding my ground strap loose and tightening it. On my road trip last weekend the static in my sound system that I've been chasing and fighting without success for months was gone!