Good photo of Skip's impeller?

[hotrodA]

^^^^Welcome to the Fordbarn.......SOS

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

This thread has gone epic....

Let me shift gears and get us to a happier place: 1.5 or 1.6 valves? Discuss...

How about 3 rings on a 4 ring piston."LOL"

Diesel oil!!!

Ignition points vs hei!!!

[Mike B]

Wow, like watching a soap opera..mercy.

Bottom line in my opinion, is more flow will always assist in cooling...seems pretty simple to me.

Heck, many guys/gals run restrictors and not thermostats to keep the temp where they want it.

I'd rather have more flow than is needed, than less.

Henry, just curious, did the pics you see make you an informed engeering descision?

Data like GM provided would have suffice for me.

On topic...lol..off?

Oh, just another opinion of mine, it appears that the impeller is casted...is just the end of the impeller machined? (from pics posted it appears to me)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Henry, just curious, did the pics you see make you an informed engeering descision?

I know your question may be a rhetorical one (that doesn't really want an answer). If so, I apologize for giving one. But, just in case you really want an answer, the answer is yes, although the pictures were not as powerful as Skip's instruction not to use his pumps with modern thermostats available for 32-48 engines. Now, at the risk of giving more information than anyone really wants to know, here's what I learned from the pictures.

HOW TO MOVE GASES AND FLUIDS: Using air as an example, there is a whole spectrum of devices to move it from a blade fan on one end of the spectrum to a piston compressor on the other end. The choice of which one to use depends on whether volume is more important or pressure. The fan, of course, moves way more volume but creates very little pressure through a restriction whereas, on the other hand, a piston compressor moves very little volume but can push air through very high restrictions. Water is the same way. The propeller of a boat moves the water at very high speed but would not create the pressure to fly a man in the air on a flyboard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd6C1vIyQ3w) like the centrifugal pump of PWC. So, there is a balance that must be struck between volume and pressure. So it is in the flathead engines. There is need for both and more of each under changing conditions within the engine. Essentially the difference is whether or not the water pump must push the water through the restriction of a thermostat. If it does not, the higher volume but lower pressure mixed-flow design of Skip's impeller is best. But, with the restriction of the thermostat, the pressure created by the centrifugal impeller may well be better, at least that's what Skip and other responses here have said.

Originally Posted by Mike B

Data like GM provided would have suffice for me.

Let me begin this response (which maybe no one wants) by congratulating G.M. for the creative and inventive work he did almost 20 years ago creating and testing the impeller that Skip now sells. It definitely has it's advantages as I mention above. However, as far as I have read (and I just re-read back almost three years) all of his testing was either with the pumps not installed in an engine or installed in an engine without thermostats. That is all good data for anyone that never needs or runs thermostats, which most seem to be. But for me, that lives where I need heat in the winter and a thermostat to create it, it is not really helpful because it does not report the performance of Skip's impeller when more pressure is needed. As I've just re-read the last three years of G.M.'s reports, many have asked for data from tests with a thermostat installed but there never has been any that I found. Apparently, Skip has some idea what the results of such a test would be and that's why he doesn't recommend his pumps be used with stock thermostats (high volume stats are OK). So, that's why G.M.'s data was not sufficient for my needs and purposes although it is very valuable for all of you in the sunbelts that don't need the stats. I also just sent G.M. a PM requesting details and data on his testing of the impeller that I'm using. He did not produce any. So, his tests comparing his impeller and stock impellers years before the impeller I use was developed is not really relevant to it.

[donald1950]

henry, you will never win. you are trying to argue intelegent logic to a caveman.

had a 41 pick up with stock 8BA. drove san antonio to atlanta and back with skips pumps. had stant 180 degree stats in going. ran 185 except when in traffic and then it heated up quickley in traffic. took stats out before trip back to san antonio. ran cooler 170-175 except when in traffic and it heated up quickley in traffic. ran around san antonio for several weeks and had exactly same thing when stats in or out. took off skipd pumps and reinstalled new C&G pumps and with or with out stats things were the same, except did it not heat up quite as fast as with skips pumps. at all times i had the recomendedmixture of antifreeze per skips instructions.
bigest problem seemed to be traffic with low air flow through radiator. did not have shroud or high volume fan, just stock fan. put electric fan in front of radiator with a temp sensing switch to turn on electric fan at 195 and off at 175 and that cured overheating in traffic. recored radiator was in truck at all times that had 7# coolant recovery cap setup for coolant recovery with recovery tank.. never lost water due to recovert system.

have a 50 sedan with gm crate motor, BW 5 speed trans, 190 stat, walker radiator, walker shroud, 7 blade high volume fan, AC. car runs at just below 3/4 on gauge freeway or traffic. key is high volume fan & shroud. has a coolant frecovery system.

41 pu had a 59 motor, 8BA motor and a gm 350 motor in it. AND with all 3 motors in it it had the same recored 4 tube radiator in it. all 3 motors had the same slow speed overheating problem that a pusher fan in front of the radiator cured. i feel if i had been able to get a shroud and high volume fan in there i would not have needed the electric pusher fan.

get a good airflow through the entire radiator with a shroud. use a high volume fan to pull all that cool air through ALL the radiator, and probably either pump will get enough water through a clean radiator to be heat exchanged and allow you not to worry about overheating.... don

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by donald1950

henry, you will never win. you are trying to argue intelegent logic to a caveman.

I'm not really trying to argue but just teach what I learned. I think anyone that sincerely asks a question is likely smart enough to learn from the answer (i.e. no caveman).

I really liked your real life examples of changing variables in the cooling system and the results. That was very helpful. Seemed to verify my thinking.

[HotRodmicky]

Do Bob Sherman high flow stats fit in the stock position,openings?

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

G.M. I dare you, no, double dare you, no, let's make it double DOG dare you to post the reference to one post

LOL Had an instant vision of a kid with his tongue stuck to a flagpole and then the bandage (ref-Christmas Story)

[Tim Ayers]

Folks:

I think even GM would agree that Skips pumps aren't a cure all. Donald 1950, I would be curious to know the condition of your radiator, if you flushed it or your block. Was your distributor running 100%?

As we all know, flatheads tend to collect a lot crud in their water jackets. A block with a crudded up water jacket is going to run hot no mater what. A plugged up radiator is going to run hot using Skips pumps or not. Having a distributor that is out of time will make a car run hot in traffic.

Those who are praising Skip's pumps are all talking about a car with a radiator and engine block that is clean and running 100%.

Folks are jumping into the fray without giving all the facts about their particular set up and, in turn, isn't that what Old Henry wanted in the first place? The facts?

I'm punching out...

[Cecil/WV]

I remember many times that GM has said not to use the thermostats that are normally sold by vendors as they would restrict the flow. That's how I knew not to use them.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by HotRodmicky

Do Bob Sherman high flow stats fit in the stock position,openings?

No. They are installed in the upper radiator necks where the water enters the radiator.

[rotorwrench]

I still remember when a lot of folks thought that the dual pump system was forcing too much water flow too fast through the radiator so they put washers in the top hoses to restrict flow. Some folks even removed every other impeller blade from the stock pumps to slow the flow. Barney Navarro even modified the blocks by installing a collector and tubes in back of the water pump impellers to route the water to the back of the block and had moderate success in preventing overheating for a racing application.

As far as what works best it beats me. I'll let folks make their own decision. I figure you can only push water through a given radiator at a certain flow rate or it could damage the radiator. Folks used to think if the flow rate was to high (too fast) then it wouldn't exchange enough heat. If that was the case the a larger radiator would be required. Cooling system design is not new science but there are a lot of variable to consider. All I know for sure is that a flathead motor with exhaust running through a good portion of the block is going to hold a lot more heat than one that exits the exhaust more quickly. Us flat V8 owners just have to make do with what we have to work with.

[Hank the 36]

Here are my water pumps straight from the box after being rebuilt by Skip. I'm hoping to button up the car today and she how H36 runs. No good shot's of the impeller's, I just thought I would add to the "mother of all threads". Good luck Henry I just want to see more of your travels.

[John R]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

What I see is that Skips impeller is what's called a mixed-flow design, while the stocker is a pure (and very simple) centrifugal design. Each type has its advantages and limitations. One of the features of a mixed-flow design is that it doesn't behave nicely if you pinch off the flow nearly completely, that is undoubtedly why Skip has requirements on thermostats.

Ross F-1: Thanks! Your brief post is perhaps the most insightful of all in this long thread. Now I'm beginning to recall the basics of centrifugal pump design from my ME class. The characteristics of the pump itself is expressed in flow volume (gpm) vs. head. Thus, the volume of any pump design in actual operation depends on the head (flow resistance) of the specific system of which it is a part. (This means that flow data from an "open" unrestricted test, while interesting, are not definitive. An impeller with higher flow in an open test may or may not produce higher flow in a highly restricted system.) Also, removing thermostats obviously changes the flow resistance of the cooling system and thus the operating point (volume) of the pump.

The different generic impeller designs (radial fins, backward canted fins, etc.) have well-known generic volume/head characteristics. Thus, knowing the shape of the fins enables a knowledgeable person to form an initial estimate of how the impeller will operate in a given system. And that point gets back to Old Henry’s original, simple request.

[donald1950]

Donald 1950, I would be curious to know the condition of your radiator, if you flushed it or your block. Was your distributor running 100%?

recored 4 tube radiator, block on 8BA & 350 chev had been thuroly cleaned byboiling in block cleaning souloution (both new rebuilt motors) 59 motor had been rebuily 4 years previous to acquiring truck, timing on all distributers was correct. gm motor & 8BA had MSD unit with vacuum advance.... don