Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-29-2020, 11:25 AM   #21
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 7,062
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

And remember, it's not the WHEEL size that's important when figuring speed potential....it's the outside circumference of the tire, or the outside diameter of the TIRE that is important in your overall computations. I TOO would stay with the 16" spoke wheels. They are a stronger wheel than the 17", and much easier size to find GOOD tires for. Pretty good advice in post #20 just above. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


In that final nano-second while the metal bar speeds toward his furry little head, the oblivious mouse FINALLY realizes WHY the cheese was free!





V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2020, 11:36 AM   #22
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,386
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent View Post
Hello again
I am confused now as I donīt know which wheel size is definitely correct. I donīt want to modify the car at all but it is way to slow for our traffic, to survive it, I should at least be able to do 80km per hour (50mph) without grenading the engine. The engine is the 21 bolt engine. It has got some (enough) torque to cruise at 80km per hour but to go 80 kph it is allready way over the torque summit. I fear the high continous revving will kill it. I hope I can find a solution to make this car cruisable without destroying all the old stuff. So it seems the only possible cure at the moment is putting the fast ring gear into the differencial and fit bigger 17" wheels with a larger tire. That will give me about 20% less revs. Or I have to do a complete set of gears for the gearbox. I have people and machines to do this but for a one-off it might be a bit expensive.
cheers, Harty

Do 17" rims exist with a 4" width?

What sounds like your engine over revving is really just fan noise. we are used to the silence of modern cars which makes us think an old car is ready to explode, just due to the noise level. Old cars had little or no sound deadening insulation in the firewall, and fans were not engineered to be quiet. With your engine cool, remove the fan belt and go for a short test run and see the difference. Your engine reallly is happy at 60-65 MPH.

Do you know of Zora Arkus-Duntov? I read an interview with him some years ago. He visited the U.S. in the 1930's and entered a 1934 Ford roadster (stock) in the Elgin Road Race (a then-popular event in Illinois). He removed the fenders and was clocked at 105 MPH on a slight downhill section. He calculated the RPM and was quite impressed. He said he had a race car in Europe with a Hispano-Suiza engine that would blow up long before reaching that RPM.
On your gearbox idea of machining new gears, third is direct which is as high as you can get. Oh, you could make 2nd into overdrive by machiing a new cluster gear and driven gear, but then you would have to wind it out in first then shift to direct and finally to what what was 2nd (now overdrive). Not practical. There are aftermarket overdrives that bolt into the torque tube (Mitchell or Volvo) or two speed rear axles (Columbia).
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-29-2020, 12:32 PM   #23
tubman
Senior Member
 
tubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 6,598
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
Hello Vincent....welcome to Fordbarn....this is a great on line forum to get information on your early Ford V8.
Based on my experiences over the years of owning, driving, doing all my own maintanence, and repair work on my '35 Fords, I think you would do well by changing the rear ring & pinion gear set from 4.11 to 3.54 gears. Also, by upgrading your original 3 speed transmission to '39-'48 gears with the improved synchronizer rings, and using a 29 tooth cluster gear with 15 tooth input gear, you will have a nice set up for good acceleration in 1st and 2nd, and a final gear combination that will allow you to easily cruise at 55 to 65 mph without exceedingly high engine rpm's. I'd also suggest keeping the 16" Ũ 4" wire wheels, and consider slightly larger diameter rear tires, maybe 6.50 to 7.00. If you do make these changes, don't forget to change the driven speedometer gear which means you may have to change the "turtle" housing as well.

Another consideration would be to add equalizers to your mechanical brakes at all four backing plates. After doing this to my '35 fordor sedan, I feel like these allow the brakes to work as well as any '39-'48 Ford with hydraulic brakes that I have ever driven.
I think this is the best advice you have been given and agree completely. You don't want to go too fast. I have a '51 Ford with a Merc engine that will cruise the freeways all day at 75. I don't like to do it because of the steering and brakes (which, while in my opinion are much better that what's on a '34, are not up to current needs) and especially the other idiot drivers on the road.
tubman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2020, 01:37 PM   #24
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,386
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubman View Post
I think this is the best advice you have been given and agree completely. You don't want to go too fast. I have a '51 Ford with a Merc engine that will cruise the freeways all day at 75. I don't like to do it because of the steering and brakes (which, while in my opinion are much better that what's on a '34, are not up to current needs) and especially the other idiot drivers on the road.

"other idiot drivers"?? What's wrong with holding a cell phone in one hand and a Big Mac in the other? I can steer with my knees, I'll have you know!!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2020, 02:33 PM   #25
A bones
Senior Member
 
A bones's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: CLAYTON DE
Posts: 1,009
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Welcome Willkommen to The Barn. Happy to see you get some good attention. I experienced Germany the best part of a month in 1971. Shocked was I to find MBs being throttled to the max. Here they were ( at the time ) only used as deluxe transport. On your roads the exhaust pipes were throbbing. There, as you know, are hand signs for a slow driver. ( here as well, but different )

The posts above are all good #20 #21 #23 are very talented. #20 has done many deep dives on his stock favorite year. Then puts them to the test. Where you stand, his trials would be international.

My take on the scene is not just making maintaining speed but getting speedy. Members here have found that raising compression by milling heads can make great strides in covering more ground. I've done it on my avatar. I found a very different experience after making the cut.

Yes tubman #23 can speak to the ins and out of doing it with a V8. We, #23 and a lot of others should direct you to Flathead Ted for a set of his brake floaters. They make your mechanical brakes perform as well as hyd. brakes. WHEN properly adjusted.

In my youth I recall the men talking about overseas or export Fords using thicker headgaskets in order to run on inferior gasoline. Your prize Might just be so equipped. Worth the gamble for a set gaskets to find out. Then while its opened up read up on 'The Tin Foil Ball Check', just ask. It's simply a painless way to see how much improvement one may derive from milling.

Should you want to get into pulling the heads, find a how to or diy book, it will help,, if,, you should need help. My experience pulling heads was a birthright. I had to be a beginer with the valve in head or, OHV. In any case enjoy your '34
we shall all wish you well,, and wish we had a '34 too.
__________________
Enjoy yer day. Tom
Hate can't fix what it started.
A bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2020, 05:26 PM   #26
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 1,115
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

My 'take'... (My experience is with a late 33 / early 34 sedan, with 36LB engine, 3.78 rear end)... skinny 17-inch wheels & stock tires, combined with stock brakes, stock steering, scared me at anything over 60/65. As it was, I learned to be relatively 'comfortable' at 60/65. If I wanted to 'go faster/lower revs', my choice would have been 16-inch rear wheels (think 35 Ford, or Kelsey, or modern) with oversize tires (for dago look). You can easily get to the equivalent of 3,54's and beyond, just by changing tires. This would be my 'cheap' approach, as compared to changing rear-end gears, or adding a Columbia (or Mitchell/Volvo/Borg Warner). The T-5 overdrive conversion could be considered, it's just not for me. Several good posts above with good info. JMO
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2020, 10:16 PM   #27
koates
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 1,582
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
What sounds like your engine over revving is really just fan noise. we are used to the silence of modern cars which makes us think an old car is ready to explode, just due to the noise level. Old cars had little or no sound deadening insulation in the firewall, and fans were not engineered to be quiet. With your engine cool, remove the fan belt and go for a short test run and see the difference. Your engine reallly is happy at 60-65 MPH.

Do you know of Zora Arkus-Duntov? I read an interview with him some years ago. He visited the U.S. in the 1930's and entered a 1934 Ford roadster (stock) in the Elgin Road Race (a then-popular event in Illinois). He removed the fenders and was clocked at 105 MPH on a slight downhill section. He calculated the RPM and was quite impressed. He said he had a race car in Europe with a Hispano-Suiza engine that would blow up long before reaching that RPM.
On your gearbox idea of machining new gears, third is direct which is as high as you can get. Oh, you could make 2nd into overdrive by machiing a new cluster gear and driven gear, but then you would have to wind it out in first then shift to direct and finally to what what was 2nd (now overdrive). Not practical. There are aftermarket overdrives that bolt into the torque tube (Mitchell or Volvo) or two speed rear axles (Columbia).
Already mentioned the generator mounted fan noise in post #6. The faster you go the noisier it becomes, to the point all you hear is the fan and not the engine. Regards, Kevin.
koates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2020, 05:33 PM   #28
vincent
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 31
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

I found a little more speed by removing the airfilter. The motor feels still too rich so I will adjust the float according to the notes of the Ford bulletin. Still I would like to find a 3,54 ratio set of ringgears for the diff and I do need a pair of 16" wheels - as all of you suggested. Now my local vintage tire dealer told me that the 7,00 x 16" Firestone is bigger in diameter than the 7,50" - is that true?
So if anyone has 2 16" wheels with at least 4" wide rim - I am ready to buy!
vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2020, 05:58 PM   #29
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,560
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Vincent, you can do it a cheaper way for the rear end ratio change,
What I did was to get a set of later model (48) 3.78 gearset and machine them to fit the 33/34 rear end.
If you have access to a lathe a simple job. I have set of 48 3.78 in the 33 and have been in for 15 or so yrs, a very good modification.
Lawrie
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2020, 07:50 PM   #30
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 7,062
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent View Post
Now my local vintage tire dealer told me that the 7,00 x 16" Firestone is bigger in diameter than the 7,50" - is that true?

It depends on the brand name. Coker vintage BF Goodrich tires can be sized that way. Firestones tend not to be. I have found in the past that the 7.00s have a wider cross section than the 7.50s. They're both VERY close in diameter. I would consider radial tires, especially if you want to go FAST. They drive so much nicer, too. Stahl Excelsior Radials are not cheap, but extremely good quality, and fit the Ford 4" wheels well, WITHOUT tubes. Pictured are 5.50 and 7.50 x 16 Stahl Excelsiors on 4" X 16" 1940 Ford wheels. They will fit the wire wheels the same. DD


__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE


In that final nano-second while the metal bar speeds toward his furry little head, the oblivious mouse FINALLY realizes WHY the cheese was free!





V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 04:38 PM   #31
vincent
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 31
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

I have no fan noise as the car has a thermostat and an electric fan, kicking in from time to time. I will adjust the carb next and get some bigger tires and see where this will put my speed range.
cheers, Harty
vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 04:41 PM   #32
vincent
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 31
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrie View Post
Vincent, you can do it a cheaper way for the rear end ratio change,
What I did was to get a set of later model (48) 3.78 gearset and machine them to fit the 33/34 rear end.
If you have access to a lathe a simple job. I have set of 48 3.78 in the 33 and have been in for 15 or so yrs, a very good modification.
Lawrie
Well, 3,78 is not the best possible choice for me but if I cannot find the 3,54 I might go that way. Lathes small and big, several milling machines, its all in my workshop so modifying is very easy to do.
cheers, Harty
vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 05:17 PM   #33
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,560
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

There was a 3.54 for sale in the swap section.
Lawrie
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2020, 06:10 PM   #34
Brian
Senior Member
 
Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Posts: 2,791
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Vincent, with respect, shouldn't the first thing to do be to calculate the existing diff ratio? You only 'think' it is a 4.11.
These cars are noisy at higher engine revs, however, it is my experience you cannot over-rev a flathead to dangerous RPM's; they run outta breathing before then.
Your car, as others have stated, should do 80 MPH, might take a while to get there though!!
__________________
Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!
Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2020, 12:52 AM   #35
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,560
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Vincent, we have just been out for the day(320 klms) in our bone stock 34 3 window coupe, standard bore 33 babbit engine, flat top pistons, stock transmission, 17 in wheels 3.54 rear gears, on the main hi way ran at 55 -60 mph , no over heat , gave it a squirt and no drama at all to get 75 MPH.
Engine as quiet as a mouse, a bit of wind noise, no worries staying straight on the road, and this is not a smooth road.
Lawrie
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2020, 01:38 AM   #36
vincent
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 31
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Thanks Lawrie
This is exactly what I plan to do to my car. Fit the 3,54 ratio to the diff and use 7,50 x 16" tires on the rear. All of this should get me around 20% more speed with the same revs. No need to ever go fast but I sure want to lower the revs a bit.
Harty
vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2020, 02:55 AM   #37
Lawrie
Senior Member
 
Lawrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 3,560
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Ours has the 550X17 crossplys.
Lawrie
Lawrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2020, 05:27 AM   #38
Terry,OH
Senior Member
 
Terry,OH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,525
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Harty: What carburetor do you have on your engine? Do inspect the throttle to make sure you can get full throttle plate opening as suggested above.
Terry,OH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2020, 02:29 PM   #39
vincent
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 31
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Okay folks
I checked all the parts that could help to get some more speed into the car. After fitting the regulator to the electric pump and freshing up the ignition distributor I adjusted the ignition to the works advice. After a testride I tried a bit more advance. The engine is now willing to rev and I was able to run higher speeds than before. The brakes are converted to hydraulic but the rest of car is stock with non-working shock dampeners (next job!) on all four wheels so the testride with around 110km/h was "interesting" .... I could have gone a bit faster but with the roadholding "as is" the speed was enough for the (wide) road available. I have to say, I did not expect this amount of power from this engine which really has seen better days. So in winter it will come out, get all that it needs, transmission gone through and updated where neccessary and with 4 working shock dampners we will be good to go!
Thanks for all your help and suggestions - I will need a lot more of it in the coming months!!!
cheers, Harty
vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2020, 02:31 PM   #40
vincent
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 31
Default Re: 1934 Tudor needs a little hop-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry,OH View Post
Harty: What carburetor do you have on your engine? Do inspect the throttle to make sure you can get full throttle plate opening as suggested above.
Have the original Holley with the Ford sign on the engine. It is opening completely when pedal is pushed to the floor.
The powervalve might be leaking as I hear the electric pump do a couple strokes every re-start, even when the engine was shut off only a few minutes ago so I have to look into that as well.
cheers, Harty
vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59 AM.