Need help from the flathead gurus...? Valve clearance issue

[rulovin]

I've built many motors and never lapped the valves in. If you lap them you may take off.0001 if your lucky!Lapping .006 would take about 20 hours or may a couple of days! P.S. I worked for a new car dealer at the time that I was rebuilding motors for their customers and never had one come back with any kind of a problem!

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by crazycasey

Gary,

Can you tell me, conveniently, what the overall height on those TopLine adjustable lifters is, at both ends of the adjustment? Curious how close they'll be with my Chevy valves and reduced base circle cam.

Thanks again for all your help!

Casey

Hi Casey, I can only give you "shortest" (adjuster all the way in) dimension, don't have the "longest" (adjuster all the way out) dimension handy.

These appear to be able to get down to 1.600"/1.625" (nominal), at this number I strongly recommend you have the lifter-bores drilled, if not, could be another "project" getting them adjusted!

This section of this post is really important:I'll give you another "tip" for what it's worth. Years ago when we did use the longer (Chevy) valves due to "necessity" (and these were on very rare occasions) we finally realized if we really did need the extra length on the valves it was much better using conventional Chevy lash caps along with the "standard" Ford length valves to add between .060" and .080" to the overall height. This method had NO ill effects on the spring heights/pressures necessary, it ALL remained "standard" for the most part. It was so simple it was "scary"!

My good friend ran that stock car (I mentioned here earlier) I believe up at Loudon with the lash cap setup for many years and always up in the 5000 RPM range. If you go over to my photo-hosting site there is a shot of this ride there.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just one final tip about the lifters, under NO circumstances purchase any lifters advertised/labeled as "Johnson-Style", chances are they will be "off-shore" mfd!! If you have any lifter questions simply call "Hylift-Johnson" @ 800-441-1400, ask for Paul. This is the division of "Topline Automotive".

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Casey, I can only give you "shortest" (adjuster all the way in) dimension, don't have the "longest" (adjuster all the way out) dimension handy.

These appear to be able to get down to 1.600"/1.625" (nominal), at this number I strongly recommend you have the lifter-bores drilled, if not, could be another "project" getting them adjusted!

This section of this post is really important:I'll give you another "tip" for what it's worth. Years ago when we did use the longer (Chevy) valves due to "necessity" (and these were on very rare occasions) we finally realized if we really did need the extra length on the valves it was much better using conventional Chevy lash caps along with the "standard" Ford length valves to add between .060" and .080" to the overall height. This method had NO ill effects on the spring heights/pressures necessary, it ALL remained "standard" for the most part. It was so simple it was "scary"!

My good friend ran that stock car (I mentioned here earlier) I believe up at Loudon with the lash cap setup for many years and always up in the 5000 RPM range. If you go over to my photo-hosting site there is a shot of this ride there.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just one final tip about the lifters, under NO circumstances purchase any lifters advertised/labeled as "Johnson-Style", chances are they will be "off-shore" mfd!! If you have any lifter questions simply call "Hylift-Johnson" @ 800-441-1400, ask for Paul. This is the division of "Topline Automotive".

Looks like I just missed them. Thanks for the closed spec. Care to wager a guess at how far out they adjust? Do they have a 1/4" in them? I need about 1.745" for my shortest valves, and would like to be somewhere in the middle of the adjustment at that length. I can't get anybody with a NOS set of non-adjustable lifters to measure a lifter for me.

Also, from asking around, it looks like a set of Zephyr springs at my tall Chevy valve installed height will be pretty close on the seat pressure. Maybe close enough that I can run a single shim anyway.

I'm not out of the woods yet, but I'm developing a plan of attack...

[JSeery]

Just measured an adjustable lifter as they come out of the box, 1.795 with a lot of adjustment in either direction. I don't want to move the adjusters around it loosens the interference fit.

Lincoln Zephyr springs measure about 2.44 out of the box. Doesn't mean much, but that is the relaxed length.

[crazycasey]

Ok, so Ron Iskenderian called me back while I was driving home this afternoon. He said that with the Isky 88 cam, I'd want to run between 80-110 lbs of seat pressure. He said I could go as low as 70-75 lbs, but that he "really wouldn't hot rod it" without more spring. Ron's numbers seem hi, but he ground the cam, and I'm inclined to listen to him. He said that if I shot for between 1.950" and 2.000" installed height, I'd be right in the neighborhood of 80-90 lbs on his Isky 185G spring. Just based on what I've read, I'm thinking I want to end up on the very bottom of his range, so I'm going to measure HIS springs when they show up and aim to install them right at 80 psi on the seat.

I'm going to number my Chevy valves to their respective cylinder and duty, and take them to the machine shop to have all their stems trimmed and squared up at the same length. And since I can't get anybody with a set of NOS valve lifters to measure me a set, I'm just going to buy some adjustable units. I'm still up in the air on whether to run the Isky's, the TopLine's, or the Red's lifters. It sounds like all three options are good, quality, pieces. The TopLine's are the shortest, the Red's the lightest, but Ron has been such a HUGE help to me, AND he offered me an incredible price, so I'm leaning that way.

Lastly, I'm going to use Dale's (@Bored&Stroked) method of converting a Comp 743-16 Chrome Moly retainer for flathead duty, which will take up MOST, if not all of my seat height discrepancy with the longer Chevy valves.

I'll document my findings here. And hopefully make his thing run hard. Does anybody care to weigh-in on/critique my approach before I start ordering parts in the morning!?

Thanks for all the help guys!

[GOSFAST]

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Originally Posted by crazycasey

Ok, so Ron Iskenderian called me back while I was driving home this afternoon. He said that with the Isky 88 cam, I'd want to run between 80-110 lbs of seat pressure. He said I could go as low as 70-75 lbs, but that he "really wouldn't hot rod it" without more spring. Ron's numbers seem hi, but he ground the cam, and I'm inclined to listen to him. He said that if I shot for between 1.950" and 2.000" installed height, I'd be right in the neighborhood of 80-90 lbs on his Isky 185G spring. Just based on what I've read, I'm thinking I want to end up on the very bottom of his range, so I'm going to measure HIS springs when they show up and aim to install them right at 80 psi on the seat.

I'm going to number my Chevy valves to their respective cylinder and duty, and take them to the machine shop to have all their stems trimmed and squared up at the same length. And since I can't get anybody with a set of NOS valve lifters to measure me a set, I'm just going to buy some adjustable units. I'm still up in the air on whether to run the Isky's, the TopLine's, or the Red's lifters. It sounds like all three options are good, quality, pieces. The TopLine's are the shortest, the Red's the lightest, but Ron has been such a HUGE help to me, AND he offered me an incredible price, so I'm leaning that way.

Lastly, I'm going to use Dale's (@Bored&Stroked) method of converting a Comp 743-16 Chrome Moly retainer for flathead duty, which will take up MOST, if not all of my seat height discrepancy with the longer Chevy valves.

I'll document my findings here. And hopefully make his thing run hard. Does anybody care to weigh-in on/critique my approach before I start ordering parts in the morning!?



Thanks for all the help guys!

Hi Casey, just another tip, before spending hours machining those retainers??, we have Comps chromemoly's on the shelf ready to go for the Flatheads, fit the OEM springs perfectly. You would only end up machining a very small portion if necessary for the spring hgts.

Good luck machining that material? The springs/retainers on the left in the photo are Comp's chromemolys. I will also add this (again), I would be using some bronze-lined guides as well, this is another area may come back to bite you later!

(Add) The Isky 185G springs we have here will give you about 70# @ 2.060" (nominal). This would be my goal for the installed pressure.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I know the guys out at a Isky and respect them all but I would NOT be running anywhere near 100# seat pressure, unnecessary on any Flathead.

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Casey, just another tip, before spending hours machining those retainers??, we have Comps chromemoly's on the shelf ready to go for the Flatheads, fit the OEM springs perfectly. You would only end up machining a very small portion if necessary for the spring hgts.

Good luck machining that material? The springs/retainers on the left in the photo are Comp's chromemolys. I will also add this (again), I would be using some bronze-lined guides as well, this is another area may come back to bite you later!

(Add) The Isky 185G springs we have here will give you about 70# @ 2.060" (nominal). This would be my goal for the installed pressure.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I know the guys out at a Isky and respect them all but I would NOT be running anywhere near 100# seat pressure, unnecessary on any Flathead.

Gary,

I wasn't aware Comp had a chromemoly retainer for the flathead ready to go. The reason I wanted to machine down their other set of retainers is because Dale said (on another forum) that THAT was the best way to tighten up the installed height. It doesn't look like the off the shelf retainer is going to help me in that regard, unless I'm missing something. Here look at this pic of Dale's modified 743-16 retainer and tell me what you think!? It's got a ton of meat on it which can preload those springs without stacking shims on the register.

Also, just for kicks, what do you get for a full set of your guides. I hate buying things twice, but you seem pretty adamant that yours are the ONLY way to go.

The only other thing I ask, is, why blatantly disregard a cam manufacturers recommendation on spring!? I DO plan to drive the car hard. I hope to anyway. I've spent enough money. Haha.

[JSeery]

There are competition engines and street engines. 100 lb seat pressure is to high for a flathead street engine.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Casey, that cam you are using is in the build that's in the ride in my signature. It has well over 30,000 street miles on it by now, maybe close to 40,000, and belongs to a long time friend. Feel free to click on the link, interesting read!

We set up and dynoed it with NOT one single issue, basically speaking we "bolted-it-together", ran it and delivered it. It made over 150 HP and over 250# torque. Stock length stainless valves, stock retainers, and the Isky 185G's with 70# spring pressure. It doesn't get any better/easier really.

It just appears to me that when you realize you have a problem you come up with a solution that simply creates another problem. This scenario opens the door for a higher risk rate of more problems later on, I hope not?

With respect to machining chromemoly retainers, it may be a really great idea, we just haven't needed to do it in over 50 years of building engines! I would not have the time to machine them OR be able to charge it out on a ticket. IT IS NOT NECESSARY! (At least over here)

(Add) If you machine .060" off the retainers you will only see a 10# difference, to see around a 20# difference would require .125" (1/8") machining on the retainers!

If Comp ever comes through for us with these "locators" it would allow us to use as many as (6) .060" shims below the springs, way, way more than would ever be needed on any builds. But entirely doable.

I've had a few days off this week, not sure how often I will be able to get back up here this week? I wish you good luck, and I mean it! On side note, bronze-lining your guides is a "snap" for us now, we made new tooling recently.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The only reason I mention the bronze guides, I haven't had 1 single "hang" EVER since we began using them. I had an F-1 myself that eventually got them installed after a few of my own valves ended up "hanging" during long storage periods, that's all in the history books now. If you need to contact me directly (for this week anyway) it would be better by an e-mail, [email protected].

[Bored&Stroked]

As some have mentioned, you don't need anywhere near 100# of spring pressure - heck, I run that with a very high-lift roller cam. If it was my engine, I'd be shooting for about 60 - 65 lbs on the seat (that will give you the most longevity on the cam core). You're not building a race engine - my guess is that you'll probably never rev it over 5000 RPM, so be conservative on your spring pressure and your engine will last a lot longer. Given the mild cam and mild engine, I'd go with a 'Zephyr' style of spring - you also don't really need the 185G Iskys. Good luck - you're getting through it!

D

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

As some have mentioned, you don't need anywhere near 100# of spring pressure - heck, I run that with a very high-lift roller cam. If it was my engine, I'd be shooting for about 60 - 65 lbs on the seat (that will give you the most longevity on the cam core). You're not building a race engine - my guess is that you'll probably never rev it over 5000 RPM, so be conservative on your spring pressure and your engine will last a lot longer. Given the mild cam and mild engine, I'd go with a 'Zephyr' style of spring - you also don't really need the 185G Iskys. Good luck - you're getting through it!

D

Dale,

I was just typing you a PM. Ron (Iskenderian) told me yesterday that the 185G was Isky's copy of the Zephyr spring, though your numbers over on Soup to Nuts put it very slightly stouter. I'm ashamed to admit that I don't have a set of dividers, but with a snap gauge I'm getting a reading of approximately 1.950" installed height on my STOCK flathead springs. I've got to purchase a spring tester, but my guesstimate is that THAT installed height puts me right around 65 lbs on the seat.

The work on this mill was all pretty shade tree, but, it'd likely have worked before I screwed up the valve job by adjusting clearances on a walking cam. I guess it's not the worst thing I could have done. Per your previous comment, I've found that there are quite a few "reputable" shops who are flat surfacing tappets, though I AM sold on starting with a fresh set.

Should I just buy an NOS set of lifters, grind in my lash, and stick this thing back together!?

My BIG question is, WHY am I observing such a tighter installed height with a Chevy valve than everybody else? I'm attaching a picture of my retainer setup.

[JSeery]

What is on there for retainers? They look like rotators to me (I'm on a cell phone, a little hard to see). They sure are not normal retainers.

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by JSeery

What is on there for retainers? They look like rotators to me (I'm on a cell phone, a little hard to see). They sure are not normal retainers.

*A quick Google search showed that these are just the standard 52-53 style two-piece retainers. Looks like THEY maybe work better on the longer Chevy valve.

I'm not familiar with what "rotators" are. They've got a retainer, and then a tapered piece, and that holds the standard style locks. It's a long story, but they came out of a 1953 8BA, along with the lifters.

[JSeery]

Rotates are later 8ba items that were added when they stopped using hardened seats. They explain how you are getting away with out a lot of shims! Things are starting to be clear here. Not something I have (or ever would! ) messes with. If the solution to the Chevy valve shimming issue was this simple everyone would be doing it! I'll let other weigh in on this one, but if it was me those would be off of there pronto!!!

[rotorwrench]

Those are the mid 51 thru end of production rotator type retainers. There is nothing wrong with them for longer valve applications. The two piece design just allows the valve to rotate which it will during normal use. Some rotator retainer designs actually cause a bit of rotation but they found that this wasn't really necessary. Things move on their own when they are bee-bopping up and down that fast. The only thing that can cause you trouble is that certain springs are designed for use with certain retainers so you would have to question folks in the know whether it would work well with the springs you are using or not.

[HP Hunter]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Rotates are later 8ba items that were added when they stopped using hardened seats. They explain how you are getting away with out a lot of shims! Things are starting to be clear here. Not something I have (or ever would! ) messes with. If the solution to the Chevy valve shimming issue was this simple everyone would be doing it! I'll let other weigh in on this one, but if it was me those would be off of there pronto!!!

I would listen to jseery here ^ raelly good advice.

Harry

[Mart]

Not got a spring tester? Neither have I but I do have a drill press and some bathroom scales though.

Mart.

[JSeery]

Per Joe Abbin: A shorter valve spring, 2.2" long, with 9 3/8 coils must be used with the rotating assemblies.

Assume this is in reference to the original valves, not sure how this translates over to the Chevy valves.

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Per Joe Abbin: A shorter valve spring, 2.2" long, with 9 3/8 coils must be used with the rotating assemblies.

Assume this is in reference to the original valves, not sure how this translates over to the Chevy valves.

I wonder if Joe says they "must be used" simply because of the difference in length or if there is something more unique about them.

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by Mart

Not got a spring tester? Neither have I but I do have a drill press and some bathroom scales though.

Mart.

This is my spring tester. Set the nut on the post at your installed height, put the metal tab on top of the spring and compress. When your ANALOG ohm meter shows contact observe the bathroom scale. Adjust the nut to see how shims affect the pressure.

PS, sorry about the picture orientation