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Old 01-19-2021, 01:52 AM   #1
JimNNN
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Default 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Hi. I've decided my 1961 Monterey with the 352 is finally going to get it's cracked pass. side exhaust manifold replaced. I find manifolds online that supposedly will fit my car...and other early 60's/late 50's applications, but none of them have the same casting number as mine. My current (cracked manifold) casting number is 5751204, which doesn't seem to fit the typical Ford numbering scheme ("C" prefix, etc.)



-How much should I pay attention to the casting number?



-Are all pass. side manifolds for 352's from that era going to fit my car?



-My current unit has a heat actuated flapper valve. One of the used ones I'm looking at doesn't have a flapper valve. Would that be a problem using a manifold without a flapper valve on my car?
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Old 01-19-2021, 06:47 AM   #2
darrell
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

you dont need the flapper if your only driving in warm weather.early manifolds used a flat exhaust pipe gasket.later used a doenut.you can tell by looking im not sure when the change took place.
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Old 01-19-2021, 08:21 AM   #3
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Post Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
... casting number is 5751204, which doesn't seem to fit the typical Ford numbering scheme ("C" prefix, etc.)
That CASTING ID NO is correct as FORD used a seven digit PN system briefly from 1958 to approx 1960.

You want an exact match regarding the heat riser valve as if you change the manifold outlet design, you will most likely have to have the exhaust inlet pipe redone.

1961 MERC 352 2V?
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Old 01-19-2021, 09:56 AM   #4
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Post Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Let me try this again as I did not answer all the questions in the first reply-

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNNN View Post

Hi. I've decided my 1961 Monterey with the 352 is finally going to get it's cracked pass. side exhaust manifold replaced. I find manifolds online that supposedly will fit my car...and other early 60's/late 50's applications, but none of them have the same casting number as mine. My current (cracked manifold) casting number is 5751204, which doesn't seem to fit the typical Ford numbering scheme ("C" prefix, etc.)

-How much should I pay attention to the casting number?
The CASTING ID NO is going to tell you exactly what it is and cast (CASTING DATE CODE). FORD when making progressive component changes, usually (not always) changed the CASTING ID NO but the CASTING DATE will be a dead give-away as to the period.

Quote:
-Are all pass. side manifolds for 352's from that era going to fit my car?
It is best to go by the FORD MPC and OSI CATALOGS (or an HOLLANDER INTERCHANGE MANUAL)


Quote:
-My current unit has a heat actuated flapper valve. One of the used ones I'm looking at doesn't have a flapper valve. Would that be a problem using a manifold without a flapper valve on my car?
It is named a HEAT RISER VALVE and there were different deigns. You also have to make sure the CHOKE STOVE design is the same or you will have to modify the hot air choke tubing.

I do not have access to my 1960-64 LM MPC but the FORD MPC shows C3SZ 9430-A for the FORD application. MERC of this period was an exact duplicate usually. The PN shown is a SERVICE PN and not an ENGINEERING NO.
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Old 01-19-2021, 10:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Are the exhaust outlet flanges flat or tapered to use a 'donut' spacer/gasket? The C3SZ manifolds used the tapered/'donut' spacer while earlier ones typically were flat.

As for the engineering number you found, to confirm what Kultulz sez, those were used '58-early '60: while researching part numbers for Vintage Thunderbird Club International's 1958-1960 Original Factory Specifications manual 15 years ago this drove me nuts!! Thankfully I have a copy of the Master Cross-Reference Parts Catalog with the 7-digit all-number engineering numbers and corresponding Parts & Accessories (P&A) prefix-basic number-suffix ID numbers to compare against. What I found, if I remember correctly, was that the last digit of the engineering/production casting number might be off by 1 or 2 numbers compared to the service part's P&A and corresponding engineering number.
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Old 01-20-2021, 04:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

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tapered to use a donut gasket.what year was the change to donut.i had a lot of these engines back when but i cant remember when the change happened.
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Old 01-20-2021, 09:16 AM   #7
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Exclamation Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alt63bird View Post

... those were used '58-early '60: while researching part numbers for Vintage Thunderbird Club International's 1958-1960 Original Factory Specifications manual 15 years ago this drove me nuts!!

Thankfully I have a copy of the Master Cross-Refernce Parts Catalog with the 10-digit engineering numbers and corresponding Parts & Accessories (P&A) numbers to compare against.



... you have what ... ?

Where in the world did you come across them? Can you show the PRINT DATE (quarter -year) of the MPC and CROSS-REFERENCE?
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Old 01-20-2021, 11:02 AM   #8
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Post Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darrell View Post

... tapered to use a donut gasket.what year was the change to donut.i had a lot of these engines back when but i cant remember when the change happened.
I think .... misnomer ... that it began approximately 1962/ and progressed from there. RS w/ HEAT RISER VALVE used flat flange and LS used donut.
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Old 01-20-2021, 04:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I went up and checked yesterday and it has flat gaskets rather than the donut. I did exhaust work since I've owned the car, so you think I'd remember that stuff, but...oh well.

I don't know if the heat riser valve (thanks KULTULZ) is working, but I think I'll probably just get a spacer from Macs and call it good, as I hardly ever drive the car in winter.

The riser tube coming from the manifold broke a long time ago...before I bought the car. I put a manual choke on it to replace the automatic thermal choke, but I think I'm going to put an electric choke from Mike's Carb Parts. It's solid state, I think. I put one on my T-Bird and it works pretty slick. The kit has you cap of that tube.




My car was made in late 1960, so I think that's probably the correct casting number on the manifold, based on what you guys say. My main concern is I definitely want the new manifold to connect with existing exhaust system, which is fairly new (single exhaust.)

Did different manifolds have different outlets that came down at different angles? I'm looking at a used manifold that the seller SAYS would work on a '61 Merc., but the prefix on the casting # is "C6......", which, as I understand it, would be for a car from 1966, or thereabouts. It MAY work on my car, but the number is C6AE9430A so I can't know for sure. My car is a "survivor" original, but I'm not so anal about it that casting numbers have to be exact.

I'll look for one of those manuals KULTULZ mentioned.Oh, two more questions:



The seller says the the cylinder head mating surface of the manifold has been resurfaced, which is good. Does the cylinder head exhaust surfaces themselves have to be resurfaced flat?



Also, the there was no exhaust manifold gasket from the factory on my car. Would you put one on when replacing the manifold?

Last edited by JimNNN; 01-20-2021 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 01-20-2021, 05:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

The head should be resurfaced. You might get away with using a large flat file to clean the head surface, but, the head must be flat and clean. Do NOT use a gasket between head and manifold.
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Old 01-20-2021, 07:42 PM   #11
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Post Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Did different manifolds have different outlets that came down at different angles?

I'm looking at a used manifold that the seller SAYS would work on a '61 Merc., but the prefix on the casting # is "C6......", which, as I understand it, would be for a car from 1966, or thereabouts. It MAY work on my car, but the number is C6AE9430A so I can't know for sure. My car is a "survivor" original, but I'm not so anal about it that casting numbers have to be exact.

I'll look for one of those manuals KULTULZ mentioned.Oh, two more questions:

The seller says the the cylinder head mating surface of the manifold has been resurfaced, which is good. Does the cylinder head exhaust surfaces themselves have to be resurfaced flat?

Also, the there was no exhaust manifold gasket from the factory on my car. Would you put one on when replacing the manifold?

I would leave the C6 alone as it most likely will not fit (IMO).

The manual you speak of is very hard to find. With those manuals, you could pinpoint what would and would not work.

It is hard to determine how to advise you as the MPC was updated regularly and a replacing PN would be hard to determine without all the needed manuals.

There was no gasket used, it was metal to metal except for HP and medium/heavy truck. The manifold will warp way ahead of the head surface. Very unusual. Just make sure the replacement manifold is true and try to use new hardware torqued to factory specs. Under no circumstances use a fiber gasket as these will allow the manifold to move leading to cracking.



You might want to remove your manifold to compare with period ones on E-Bay.


See Attached -
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Old 01-20-2021, 11:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNNN View Post
Thanks for the replies everyone. I went up and checked yesterday and it has flat gaskets rather than the donut. I did exhaust work since I've owned the car, so you think I'd remember that stuff, but...oh well.

I don't know if the heat riser valve (thanks KULTULZ) is working, but I think I'll probably just get a spacer from Macs and call it good, as I hardly ever drive the car in winter.

The riser tube coming from the manifold broke a long time ago...before I bought the car. I put a manual choke on it to replace the automatic thermal choke, but I think I'm going to put an electric choke from Mike's Carb Parts. It's solid state, I think. I put one on my T-Bird and it works pretty slick. The kit has you cap of that tube.




My car was made in late 1960, so I think that's probably the correct casting number on the manifold, based on what you guys say. My main concern is I definitely want the new manifold to connect with existing exhaust system, which is fairly new (single exhaust.)

Did different manifolds have different outlets that came down at different angles? I'm looking at a used manifold that the seller SAYS would work on a '61 Merc., but the prefix on the casting # is "C6......", which, as I understand it, would be for a car from 1966, or thereabouts. It MAY work on my car, but the number is C6AE9430A so I can't know for sure. My car is a "survivor" original, but I'm not so anal about it that casting numbers have to be exact.

I'll look for one of those manuals KULTULZ mentioned.Oh, two more questions:



The seller says the the cylinder head mating surface of the manifold has been resurfaced, which is good. Does the cylinder head exhaust surfaces themselves have to be resurfaced flat?



Also, the there was no exhaust manifold gasket from the factory on my car. Would you put one on when replacing the manifold?
instead of ordering a heat riser valve spacer, why not take the valve disc out and use the empty valve as a spacer. then everything will look original
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Old 01-20-2021, 11:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordor41 View Post
instead of ordering a heat riser valve spacer, why not take the valve disc out and use the empty valve as a spacer. then everything will look original

Great idea, fordor41. When I replace the manifold I'll take a look at it and see how intact it is. At this point my main concern is making sure my exhaust seal is 100%. Regardless, I'll keep the original valve with the car always.


LOW AND BEHOLD, I found a manifold on evil bay right now that has the exact same casting number as my original! 5751204



It wasn't exactly cheap, but it looks to be in very good condition, and has no cracks according to the seller - who has a very high rating over 40k + feedback. I went ahead and ordered it. There's a 30 day return policy with this seller.



Many thanks to Kultulz (especially), alt63bird, estout81 and darrell and anyone else I missed for the much needed help. Another question:


Why are the second set of holes back from the front (and presumably the corresponding fasteners) smaller than the others on these manifolds?



Also, if I'm going to go with new fasteners for the manifold, what would you recommend? Thanks again.

Last edited by JimNNN; 01-20-2021 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 01-21-2021, 12:14 AM   #14
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNNN View Post
. . .
Why are the second set of holes back from the front (and presumably the corresponding fasteners) smaller than the others on these manifolds?
. . .
I suspect the attaching bolts are all the same size and the slightly oversize bolt holes in the casting are to allow it to expand and contract slightly as it heats and cools, to reduce the chances of it cracking. Double check for the correct torque value on the bolts and use the appropriate bolts and washers, Too tight is not 'better', and may cause the manifolds to crack sooner.

Some exhaust manifolds were originally designed to be installed to the head without gaskets. Over-tightening the bolts can crush an add-on gasket unevenly and eventually crack or break the casting.
I'm not sure if 'no original gasket' applies to the versions you have but it may be a good thing to know.
.

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Old 01-21-2021, 01:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darrell View Post
tapered to use a donut gasket.what year was the change to donut.i had a lot of these engines back when but i cant remember when the change happened.
1 9 6 3 from what I've witnessed on T-bird 390 manifolds, as the C2SZ versions were flat for the flange-type pipes - I alluded to that in my previous post but wasn't specific about that fact. People also need to be aware that there were differences between Galaxie and T-bird exhaust manifolds in the early '60s, at least for '61. The big difference I've found is that the T-bird manifolds had a threaded opening in the top of the manifolds to accept an eye bolt used with a hook/overhead conveyor line during engine drop at Wixom Assembly, while at least one '61 C1AE manifold I documented had this 'nub' filled in as they used another method.
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

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Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post


... you have what ... ?

Where in the world did you come across them? Can you show the PRINT DATE (quarter -year) of the MPC and CROSS-REFERENCE?
Off the top of my head the MPXR catalog was printed April of '59, and I've been attempting to collect loose-leaf MPCs going back into the late '50s-early '60s in search of change levels that others may have thrown away, along with L-M books and Ford Truck. As for where I found the MPXR book I don't recall as it's been over 20 years since I got it - might have been at Fords@Carlisle in '97 or a local swap meet out here in fly-over country (probably the latter). Give me a few days to dig it up and confirm along with form number - my time and memory's clogged up with a project submittal going out the door on Friday, and I'm still in the office at friggin' midnight!!
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfrr View Post
I suspect the attaching bolts are all the same size and the slightly oversize bolt holes in the casting are to allow it to expand and contract slightly as it heats and cools, to reduce the chances of it cracking. Double check for the correct torque value on the bolts and use the appropriate bolts and washers, Too tight is not 'better', and may cause the manifolds to crack sooner.

Some exhaust manifolds were originally designed to be installed to the head without gaskets. Over-tightening the bolts can crush an add-on gasket unevenly and eventually crack or break the casting.
I'm not sure if 'no original gasket' applies to the versions you have but it may be a good thing to know.
.
BINGO! As others noted, typically there was a thin, stamped sheet metal heat shield installed between the head and manifold to help protect the plug wires, but many people mistake it for a gasket.
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Old 01-21-2021, 02:23 AM   #18
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Post Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimNNN View Post

Also, if I'm going to go with new fasteners for the manifold, what would you recommend? Thanks again.
Below is an ATTACHING HARDWARE LISTING. It gives sizes. The cap screws should have lock washers installed. GRADE 5 is what you are looking for. No HOME DEPOT! Most hardware now is off-shore junk. After installing and run through some heat cycles it is a good idea to re-torque.

As for the VALVE, if inoperable you will need to confirm frozen in open position or safety wire in open position. If you remove the pintle shaft you will need to add welds to close the holes.

If the valve is still operable, I would just safety wire it to stay open. Leaded gasoline is what disabled them.


OH! If you could when you get the manifold, if you could take an overhead shot w/ the CASTING ID and post it here I would appreciate it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EXH MANIFOLD HRDWRE - 1960-64 FORD.jpg (32.9 KB, 8 views)
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post


OH! If you could when you get the manifold, if you could take an overhead shot w/ the CASTING ID and post it here I would appreciate it.

Here's a pic from the evil bay ad. The actual numbers on the casting are a slightly smaller size than what's on the original on my car, I think. And in a slightly different location. The other extraneous numbers aren't the same, but I figure that they're some sort of production numbering system. The seller says the paint/coating will burn off. Also, he sells a lot of FE exhaust manifolds on ebay, but noted that that this particular casting number is difficult to find. So I lucked out...but I'm still crossing my fingers that everything will be as needed when it arrives. Here's the pic :
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File Type: jpg s-l1600.jpg (78.9 KB, 15 views)

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Old 01-21-2021, 03:12 PM   #20
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Thumbs up Re: 1961 FE exaust manifolds and casting numbers.

thank you very much!
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