The Ford Barn

koates · 04-04-2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Kevin, Drbrown wasn't asking if it would work, he was telling how he made it work.

Kinda looks like the key to invention is to not have advance knowledge that it won't work.

I will try to re answer this question. Two horns connected in series will work to varing degrees, but not in tune as originally designed by the OEM. The internal components of each horn have a coil winding and a set of contacts in series with the coil winding. Connect another horn in series with the first horn and you then have two sets of contacts opening and closing at a rapid rate and interfering with the current flowing in both horn coils. This does not make for an efficient operating set of horns. As I stated earlier a parallel connection is the CORRECT way to connect horn sets so that they do not interfere with each other. I guess that some people are happy enough that the horns just make some sort of noise. Macs and others do supply resistors capable of operating 6 volt horns on 12 volts. Other cases do arise where 6 volt electrical items can be connected in series to work well on 12 volts. These items are usually bulbs or electric motors etc which have a constant current draw. To ford38v8 s little statement about advance knowledge, yes a do have a little bit of that, about 55 years in the auto electrical trade !!! Regards, Kevin.

Graeme / New Zealand · 04-05-2016, 12:55 AM

My 48 is running the 46 trumpet style earlier horns on the inner fender under the hood ( because I like them). On one of them the guts was stuffed so I took the guts out of a 48 "snail" type horn I had lying around and got them both to work. I presume the electrical parts are interchangable as they looked the same. I presume it is not the electrical componant (the guts) but the length of the trumpet or twists in the "snail" type that detemines the note. Both mine are similar in note when I sound the horn although the horns are of two different lengths and they are both working. If I stuff a piece of cloth in the longer horn I get a beautiful definate 2 tone note that sounds better. Would i be able to adjust the contacts to get a better sound without the use of the rag?

GB

flatheadmurre · 04-05-2016, 01:34 AM

You adjust the points gap to set the frequency in a horn.
Longer gap will take more time to travel and give lower note.
Then theres a design limit on every horn...

koates · 04-05-2016, 05:14 AM

The tone of a horn is determined by several design features. As noted the length of the trumpet can have an effect on the tone. Take for instance horns that are marked "H" and "L" for high and low but look exactly the same as each other on the outside and the inside workings as well. Whats the difference here ? As an example 1933 to 1935 ford deluxe cars are like this, both exactly the same looking horns except for the thickness or gauge of the metal diaphragm which nobody usually checks. For correct operation and tone horns have to be wired in parallel. Regards, Kevin.

flatheadmurre · 04-05-2016, 05:45 AM

The difference in weight of the moving part or strenght of the diapragm acting as a return spring set the tone to.

rotorwrench · 04-05-2016, 08:31 AM

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A horn coil works as an electromagnet but it also works as a resistor for a component that might be connected in series with it. The first one connected in the series will be getting most of the current. The last in the series will be less so the current draw will never have a balance between the two. Using dropping resistors with horn connections in parallel would work better. At least there would be a tone balance if both are in similar condition.

I always loved the sound of a good working pair of OEM 6-volt horns. Nothin made now days does a good job of replicating that. Truly a blast from the past.

Flat Ernie · 04-05-2016, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

A horn coil The first one connected in the series will be getting most of the current. The last in the series will be less so the current draw will never have a balance between the two.

That's simply not accurate.

The reason the second horn doesn't sound right is as koates described above. The contacts in each horn interfere with current flow through each other.

rotorwrench · 04-05-2016, 05:52 PM

I agree that the first vibrator coil making and breaking the circuit interferes with the current to the next & vice versa but there is a little more going on there in a series circuit. The statement is not totally inaccurate. There is more than one reason why one is louder than the other.

Flat Ernie · 04-05-2016, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I agree that the first vibrator coil making and breaking the circuit interferes with the current to the next & vice versa but there is a little more going on there in a series circuit. The statement is not totally inaccurate. There is more than one reason why one is louder than the other.

Whether you put the ammeter at the positive terminal, between the horns, or negative terminal, it will read the same - total current through the circuit will be the same regardless of where you measure it so long as the horns are wired in series.

The problem is, just as the second horn is getting its voltage, the first horn is opening its contacts, so it may not get enough TIME at full current to create a strong enough magnetic field to fully pull the contacts open. This is why it sounds weaker.

The voltage drop across the horns may be different if they have a different impedance/resistance in the coil, but the total current will be the same regardless of where you measure it.

Paul Bennett · 10-15-2016, 03:38 AM

Older electrical horns are non-linear electro-magnetic devices which are turned on by electricity then turn themselves off several hundred times a second. It's only actually on part time.

SERIES: Using one 6v horn to provide voltage for a second 6v horn requires the first horn to intermittently supply voltage to the second but the second must be on at the same time as the first to complete the electrical path. But the second also turns itself off cutting voltage to the first. This arrangement will make noise but not proper. When the first turns itself off the voltage is cut from the second. Since they are designed to operate at different frequencies, turning on/off at dissimilar times, there would be a sound. An odd sound indeed but it probably serve to scare little old ladies who accidentally venture into the street. Mounting anything on a piece of wood won't happen in my car, however.

Do what you will, but as an electrical engineer I say NO to series horns. Use readily available 12v horns available very cheap in junk yards. For new, consider the air variety which use a small air pump connected by hose to a trumpet. Their lower current draw and substantially less electrical noise to the radio and other audio devices make them quite attractive devices.

I have no clue as to peak current draw of the 6v horns soas to calculate a dropping resistor but I assure you the wattage would make them expensive (and large). One cannot use the average current unless a smoothing capacitor were also used. Just use a 12v horn for a cheap reliable component.

Paul Bennett · 10-16-2016, 05:09 AM

I just noticed that the 'EARLY FORD STORE' in San Dimas CA has a "Horn voltage reducer" for $28 ... pn A-13803. Specifically to reduce 12v for 6v horns. http://lbcunited.com/earlyford2/index.php/cPath/300

weemark · 10-16-2016, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Bennett

I just noticed that the 'EARLY FORD STORE' in San Dimas CA has a "Horn voltage reducer" for $28 ... pn A-13803. Specifically to reduce 12v for 6v horns. http://lbcunited.com/earlyford2/index.php/cPath/300

That's just a standard 12v - 6v reduced in an aluminium housing.

mrtexas · 10-16-2016, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weemark

That's just a standard 12v - 6v reduced in an aluminium housing.

They work great. Marketed to Model A.

JSeery · 10-16-2016, 08:35 AM

Looks like a cool setup if it works.

flatheadmurre · 10-16-2016, 10:39 AM

It´s just a power resistor bolted to a heatsink no rocket science there.
You could probably bolt the resistor to the sheetmetal of the car and it will work as good.

JSeery · 10-16-2016, 11:07 AM

Didn't know anyone considered a resistor rocket science!

It's just a resistor of the correct value and wattage already mounted to a heatsink for the folks that have no idea how to calculate these things, nothing more.

drolston · 11-10-2016, 01:13 PM

A degree in electrical engineering proved to be of no help in the attempt to convert my '41 horns to 12 volts. Tried a range of high wattage resistors in series; tried a wound voltage tap resistor; tried a MSD DC/DC voltage reducer that worked on windshield wiper and heater motors. Nothing worked; mostly no sound. At the heart of the problem is the fact that you have an inductive coil that also presents a series resistance in a circuit that the make/break points cause to behave more like an alternating current circuit.

I just left mine on 12 volts. Sounds more like a freight train than a '41 Ford, but it gets the desired effect in traffic.

Someday I will get out the EE 201 text book and figure out what combination of resistor, capacitor and coil is needed to get the horns to behave as original.

rdmace1956 · 11-11-2016, 11:44 AM

I was thinking about the .3 to .6 ohm resistor to see how it works on the 41. Those big horns look so neat I want to try and keep them working. Was going to try them at 6v and try to measure the current draw just to make sure the resistor is reasonable. If the current flow is as high as I suspect, the usual 3 to 6 amp capacity dropping resistors in the catalogs probably will not be high enough resistance.

04-05-2016, 12:55 AM	#22
Graeme / New Zealand Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lower Hutt , New Zealand Posts: 2,126	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt My 48 is running the 46 trumpet style earlier horns on the inner fender under the hood ( because I like them). On one of them the guts was stuffed so I took the guts out of a 48 "snail" type horn I had lying around and got them both to work. I presume the electrical parts are interchangable as they looked the same. I presume it is not the electrical componant (the guts) but the length of the trumpet or twists in the "snail" type that detemines the note. Both mine are similar in note when I sound the horn although the horns are of two different lengths and they are both working. If I stuff a piece of cloth in the longer horn I get a beautiful definate 2 tone note that sounds better. Would i be able to adjust the contacts to get a better sound without the use of the rag? GB __________________ "you can't make honey out of dog sh*t" "You're a long time looking at the lid"

04-05-2016, 01:34 AM	#23
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt You adjust the points gap to set the frequency in a horn. Longer gap will take more time to travel and give lower note. Then theres a design limit on every horn...

04-05-2016, 05:14 AM	#24
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,079	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt The tone of a horn is determined by several design features. As noted the length of the trumpet can have an effect on the tone. Take for instance horns that are marked "H" and "L" for high and low but look exactly the same as each other on the outside and the inside workings as well. Whats the difference here ? As an example 1933 to 1935 ford deluxe cars are like this, both exactly the same looking horns except for the thickness or gauge of the metal diaphragm which nobody usually checks. For correct operation and tone horns have to be wired in parallel. Regards, Kevin.

04-05-2016, 05:45 AM	#25
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt The difference in weight of the moving part or strenght of the diapragm acting as a return spring set the tone to.

04-05-2016, 08:31 AM	#26
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,431	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) A horn coil works as an electromagnet but it also works as a resistor for a component that might be connected in series with it. The first one connected in the series will be getting most of the current. The last in the series will be less so the current draw will never have a balance between the two. Using dropping resistors with horn connections in parallel would work better. At least there would be a tone balance if both are in similar condition. I always loved the sound of a good working pair of OEM 6-volt horns. Nothin made now days does a good job of replicating that. Truly a blast from the past.

04-05-2016, 05:52 PM	#28
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,431	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt I agree that the first vibrator coil making and breaking the circuit interferes with the current to the next & vice versa but there is a little more going on there in a series circuit. The statement is not totally inaccurate. There is more than one reason why one is louder than the other.

10-15-2016, 03:38 AM	#30
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt Older electrical horns are non-linear electro-magnetic devices which are turned on by electricity then turn themselves off several hundred times a second. It's only actually on part time. SERIES: Using one 6v horn to provide voltage for a second 6v horn requires the first horn to intermittently supply voltage to the second but the second must be on at the same time as the first to complete the electrical path. But the second also turns itself off cutting voltage to the first. This arrangement will make noise but not proper. When the first turns itself off the voltage is cut from the second. Since they are designed to operate at different frequencies, turning on/off at dissimilar times, there would be a sound. An odd sound indeed but it probably serve to scare little old ladies who accidentally venture into the street. Mounting anything on a piece of wood won't happen in my car, however. Do what you will, but as an electrical engineer I say NO to series horns. Use readily available 12v horns available very cheap in junk yards. For new, consider the air variety which use a small air pump connected by hose to a trumpet. Their lower current draw and substantially less electrical noise to the radio and other audio devices make them quite attractive devices. I have no clue as to peak current draw of the 6v horns soas to calculate a dropping resistor but I assure you the wattage would make them expensive (and large). One cannot use the average current unless a smoothing capacitor were also used. Just use a 12v horn for a cheap reliable component.

10-16-2016, 05:09 AM	#31
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt I just noticed that the 'EARLY FORD STORE' in San Dimas CA has a "Horn voltage reducer" for $28 ... pn A-13803. Specifically to reduce 12v for 6v horns. http://lbcunited.com/earlyford2/index.php/cPath/300

10-16-2016, 10:39 AM	#35
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt It´s just a power resistor bolted to a heatsink no rocket science there. You could probably bolt the resistor to the sheetmetal of the car and it will work as good.

10-16-2016, 11:07 AM	#36
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt Didn't know anyone considered a resistor rocket science! It's just a resistor of the correct value and wattage already mounted to a heatsink for the folks that have no idea how to calculate these things, nothing more.

11-10-2016, 01:13 PM	#37
drolston Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Williamsburg, VA Posts: 1,627	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt A degree in electrical engineering proved to be of no help in the attempt to convert my '41 horns to 12 volts. Tried a range of high wattage resistors in series; tried a wound voltage tap resistor; tried a MSD DC/DC voltage reducer that worked on windshield wiper and heater motors. Nothing worked; mostly no sound. At the heart of the problem is the fact that you have an inductive coil that also presents a series resistance in a circuit that the make/break points cause to behave more like an alternating current circuit. I just left mine on 12 volts. Sounds more like a freight train than a '41 Ford, but it gets the desired effect in traffic. Someday I will get out the EE 201 text book and figure out what combination of resistor, capacitor and coil is needed to get the horns to behave as original.

11-11-2016, 11:44 AM	#38
rdmace1956 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Hope, Indiana Posts: 32	Re: Horns - 6 to 12 volt I was thinking about the .3 to .6 ohm resistor to see how it works on the 41. Those big horns look so neat I want to try and keep them working. Was going to try them at 6v and try to measure the current draw just to make sure the resistor is reasonable. If the current flow is as high as I suspect, the usual 3 to 6 amp capacity dropping resistors in the catalogs probably will not be high enough resistance.