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Old 08-24-2013, 05:45 PM   #1
Ross6860
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Default Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Had the '36 out in traffic for the first time today.

I've noticed what I thought was a pretty bad rear main seal leak, until I was informed this model does not have a rear main seal.

I pulled into the garage, and for whatever time it takes to get out of the car and check to make sure the garage door will close, and come back and shut the car down, I think it dumped about 1/8 cup of oil. It also left a stream of closely-spaced drops up the driveway.

Any sage advice would be appreciated. I don't want to blindly go tearing things apart (but it would not be the first time).

Is there a rear oil gallery plug for the cam or anything at the rear of the block? The later model shows an oil-pump drive cover. I'll assume this version has the same?

I guess I'm into pulling the engine or dropping the trans in any case. I don't think this is a nuisance leak.

With the torque tube, can the transmission be dropped without pulling the engine? Am I just better off pulling the engine?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:56 PM   #2
Jack E/NJ
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

I think it should have a potmetal labryinthe-type seal. So unless it's cracked or missing, that's probably not the problem. I'd guess the most likely source of the leak is that the cork/rubber pan gasket strip near the rear bearing has either deteriorated or slipped out of place or never installed correctly in the first place. You'd have to drop to pan to install a new gasket set not pull the engine. Can you inspect this area in the rear pan area with a flashlight to see if it might be the problem?

Jack E/NJ
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:27 PM   #3
Ross6860
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
I think it should have a potmetal labryinthe-type seal. So unless it's cracked or missing, that's probably not the problem. I'd guess the most likely source of the leak is that the cork/rubber pan gasket strip near the rear bearing has either deteriorated or slipped out of place or never installed correctly in the first place. You'd have to drop to pan to install a new gasket set not pull the engine. Can you inspect this area in the rear pan area with a flashlight to see if it might be the problem?

Jack E/NJ
Any links to photos or drawings of the labyrinth seal?

I'll get back under the car and take a good look tomorrow morning when the engine's nice and cool and see what I can see.

It did this the first time I drove it. I flushed the crankcase and changed the oil and thought it stopped (may have been overfilled a little, too), but it was back with a vengeance today.

Not sure if the pan will come off with the engine in the car? Maybe it will drop enough to get a new gasket in...if that's the problem.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:23 PM   #4
Jack E/NJ
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Here's a descriptive link for the labryinthe seal from red's headers. For some reason, the illustration referred to doesn't show up on my computer. http://www.reds-headers.com/html/red...e_talk_24.html . At any rate, I don't think this is the problem. Try to avoid overfilling --- I have an early 38 221 with a labryinthe seal --- little or no leakage with 4 quart refills instead of 5.

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Old 08-24-2013, 09:30 PM   #5
Ross6860
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

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Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ View Post
Here's a descriptive link for the labryinthe seal from red's headers. For some reason, the illustration referred to doesn't show up on my computer. http://www.reds-headers.com/html/red...e_talk_24.html . At any rate, I don't think this is the problem. Try to avoid overfilling --- I have an early 38 221 with a labryinthe seal --- little or no leakage with 4 quart refills instead of 5.

Jack E/NJ
I saw a post somewhere to remark your dipstick 5/16" below the full mark. Partially to make up for the missing felt/leather seal that no one has any longer, part to keep the labyrinth seal from leaking.

That's about the easiest thing to do...take some oil out and see if it stops.

Thanks, Jack.
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Old 09-03-2013, 03:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Had the same problem on my '35. The rear oil slinger had been installed backwards. Instead of slinging the oil back, it was pumping it out!! It's an easy mistake to make. The slinger is cupped and if you don't know better, you might assume it was designed to go over the rear main bearing.

If your tranny is leaking as much as you say, I wouldn't try to stop the leak at the universal joint cover...the oil will simply migrate back to the banjo and overfill it, leading to axle housing seal problems and ruined brake shoes. Better to stop the leak at the source.

By the way, you can't drop the tranny if you pull the rear end. It has to come out the top through the cab. Pretty straightforward job, though.
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Ross. The pan can be removed without pulling the engine.I've had mine off three times.It's not fun.3 hours to take it off and 3 hours to put it back together.Other than the obvious stuff,remove the starter,drop the wishbone,remove u-bolts,rad hoses,motor mount bolts, exhaust(maybe),raise the engine a little and rotate crank so the first journal is down and wiggle the pan out. Good luck!
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #8
Ken/Alabama
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Is your engine an early engine with the water pumps in the heads? If it is then it has a slinger as already mentioned. One of the culprits for oil leaks at the rear is a worn rear main bearing.
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Don't the early flatheads have the drain-back tube on rear main,similar to the model A? If so,then perhaps it has unscrewed & is laying in the bottom of they pan.
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Ross, just a thought. If the bean can from the starter bendix is missing, that is supposed to make oil suck from the rear main. I can't remember any solid detail on this. I'm 60 now, My dad sold his V8 when I was 10. I seem to recall that that was the cause of his rear main leak. Any one else know about this?

The picture shows the removeable seal carrier (dog turd, or rope seal type)
The earlier one is a narrow slot that a slinger flange swings in. If you want to upgrade to the rope seal, it requires that the second flange on the crank is ground away to form a smooth seal track.
There is an upper and lower piece about $10.00 each from Vanpelts.
The info I lack is what year had what.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:04 PM   #11
swedishsteel
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross6860 View Post
Had the '36 out in traffic for the first time today.

I've noticed what I thought was a pretty bad rear main seal leak, until I was informed this model does not have a rear main seal.

I pulled into the garage, and for whatever time it takes to get out of the car and check to make sure the garage door will close, and come back and shut the car down, I think it dumped about 1/8 cup of oil. It also left a stream of closely-spaced drops up the driveway.

Any sage advice would be appreciated. I don't want to blindly go tearing things apart (but it would not be the first time).

Is there a rear oil gallery plug for the cam or anything at the rear of the block? The later model shows an oil-pump drive cover. I'll assume this version has the same?

I guess I'm into pulling the engine or dropping the trans in any case. I don't think this is a nuisance leak.

With the torque tube, can the transmission be dropped without pulling the engine? Am I just better off pulling the engine?

Thanks in advance.
Is this a newly rebuilt engnine? If so, then check the bolt holes in the rear cam cover. I had the same result on a newly installed rebuilt '36 LB. Pulled engine and discovered the bolt hole directly above the water pump and a tiny hole into the oil pump chamber, thus presurized oil was being forced through the threads and running out the "cotter key" in the bottom of the bell housing. I cut a couple leather and rubber plugs, smeared them with #2 permatex and then turned the bolt in. Sealed it up. Good luck. Rod
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedishsteel View Post
Is this a newly rebuilt engnine? If so, then check the bolt holes in the rear cam cover. I had the same result on a newly installed rebuilt '36 LB. Pulled engine and discovered the bolt hole directly above the water pump and a tiny hole into the oil pump chamber, thus presurized oil was being forced through the threads and running out the "cotter key" in the bottom of the bell housing. I cut a couple leather and rubber plugs, smeared them with #2 permatex and then turned the bolt in. Sealed it up. Good luck. Rod
Just reread my post--I meant oil pump, not water pump. Sorry. Rod
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Old 09-04-2013, 03:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Sorry, Ross. I misread your post. Thought you were talking about a tranny leak. That'll teach me to read more closely!! Hope you find the answer to your rear main leak.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Swedish steel if you go back and have a look at your post, you will see an edit button at the bottom. This allows you to make changes to your post.
I often fix mine up.

On the small drilling, Is that a lube hole for the idler gear?

Last edited by Bluebell; 09-04-2013 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Put the "U" in the word "button" ( I make lots of mistakes)
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:52 AM   #15
Ross6860
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheltzel View Post
Had the same problem on my '35. The rear oil slinger had been installed backwards. Instead of slinging the oil back, it was pumping it out!! It's an easy mistake to make. The slinger is cupped and if you don't know better, you might assume it was designed to go over the rear main bearing.

If your tranny is leaking as much as you say, I wouldn't try to stop the leak at the universal joint cover...the oil will simply migrate back to the banjo and overfill it, leading to axle housing seal problems and ruined brake shoes. Better to stop the leak at the source.

By the way, you can't drop the tranny if you pull the rear end. It has to come out the top through the cab. Pretty straightforward job, though.
Thanks

My major leak is engine oil from the rear main, oil pan, or cam cover. Runs out of the bell housing drain.

Thanks for the info on pulling the tranny. Tranny leak is minor, but I may need to re-seal the cam cover. Can I get to it without pulling the motor by removing the tranny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willit Stop View Post
Ross. The pan can be removed without pulling the engine.I've had mine off three times.It's not fun.3 hours to take it off and 3 hours to put it back together.Other than the obvious stuff,remove the starter,drop the wishbone,remove u-bolts,rad hoses,motor mount bolts, exhaust(maybe),raise the engine a little and rotate crank so the first journal is down and wiggle the pan out. Good luck!
Thanks for the tips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebell View Post
Ross, just a thought. If the bean can from the starter bendix is missing, that is supposed to make oil suck from the rear main. I can't remember any solid detail on this. I'm 60 now, My dad sold his V8 when I was 10. I seem to recall that that was the cause of his rear main leak. Any one else know about this?
I apologize for my ignorance. What's a "bean can"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedishsteel View Post
Is this a newly rebuilt engnine? If so, then check the bolt holes in the rear cam cover. I had the same result on a newly installed rebuilt '36 LB. Pulled engine and discovered the bolt hole directly above the water pump and a tiny hole into the oil pump chamber, thus presurized oil was being forced through the threads and running out the "cotter key" in the bottom of the bell housing. I cut a couple leather and rubber plugs, smeared them with #2 permatex and then turned the bolt in. Sealed it up. Good luck. Rod
The vehicle is a relatively recent restoration, but I have absolutely no documentation on what was done. The vehicle was purchased through an estate sale. If I can't fix it by winter I'll probably have to pull the engine or tranny and see what's going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheltzel View Post
Sorry, Ross. I misread your post. Thought you were talking about a tranny leak. That'll teach me to read more closely!! Hope you find the answer to your rear main leak.
I have a tranny leak, also, and a steering box leak, but these are not bad enough to require immediate attention. The oil leak is a concern.

First thing I'll do is try running 4 quarts. Probably try this tomorrow.


Thanks, all.
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:40 AM   #16
Bluebell
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Default Re: Wicked Oil Leak - Sage Advice?

Sorry Ross, "the bean" can is the pressed steel cap that pokes in the hole that the starter bendix pokes through.
With the trans, just make sure it's not over full.
I swiped a pic of the cam idler gear cover, from off the net.
Once the fly wheel if out it's easy enough
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