Model A Times Article About Not Using Diesel Oil

[OL JENNY]

At the recommendation of many on the Barn, I have been using Rotella 15-40 oil in my Model A. A recent article in The Model A Times advocates not using a Diesel Oil. Has that changed the minds of any of you who like me have been using Rotella 15-40?

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by OL JENNY

At the recommendation of many on the Barn, I have been using Rotella 15-40 oil in my Model A. A recent article in The Model A Times advocates not using a Diesel Oil. Has that changed the minds of any of you who like me have been using Rotella 15-40?

No need for Diesel oil! Any detergent oil for gasoline engines will work just fine! I suspect the use of Diesel oil is due to a mistaken fixation on the reduced level of zinc in modern oils (still more zinc than any 1929-31 oil)!

[JDupuis]

I will continue to use Rotella 15w40. Jeff

[Jeff/Illinois]

I wouldn't use it simply because the detergents and additives are different for that oil from what a gasoline engine uses. Diesel engines develop soot that a gasoline engine does not.

Motor oil for gasoline engines states such, that it is designed for gasoline motors, on the label.

People are in love with the Diesel Rotella because they think somehow the Fed. Govt. left it alone when they ditched ZDDP in SL and older oils. That's like saying in 1975, when lead was taken out of gasoline, 'Well, Shell still has lead so I'll use that." Like everybody else had to conform to No-Lead but one oil company did not.

It has been talked about a lot, that you really don't need Zinc additives in a 4.0:1, low valve spring pressure Model A Ford engine. I've never heard of anyone having any problem using the SM motor oils in a Model A. And I don't think you will.

But, if it makes you sleep better at nite, get some ZDDP additive and dump in the motor along with Rotella.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I use ANYTHING that's the right viscosity, the right color, good smell & feels REAL SCHLICKERY!!!
Bill Happy

[[email protected]]

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FYI and to add more zinc to the fire.

Here attached is a technical bulletin from the AERA Automotive Engine Rebuider Association on their research on the best oils for rebuilt engines using flat tappet / camshafts and the need for zinc.... Rotella T is one of the 3 suggested oils with sufficient zinc. At least for initial break in....

Oil wZinc info.pdf

[Jim/GA]

"Diesel oils" are formulated for both diesel and gasoline engines.

They are marketed mainly to the diesel engine fleet guys as a diesel oil, but they do also say you can use it in your gasoline engines, so you don't have to stock different oils (mixed fleet).

Here is a copy/paste of a few small excerpts from the Chevron literature. Shell Rotella T is essentially the same:

"Delo® 400 LE SAE 15W-40 is a mixed fleet motor oil
recommended for naturally aspirated and turbocharged
four-stroke diesel engines and four-stroke gasoline
engines in which the API CJ-4 service category and
SAE 15W-40 viscosity grade are recommended."


"Delo® 400 LE SAE 15W-40 is approved for:
• API Service Categories CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4,
CH-4, SM" <== SM is spark ignition engines

"Zinc, mass % 0.13" . <== that is 1300 ppm, if you think zinc is important

I have not had a chance to read the oil article in the MAT. I requested a copy of it from the publisher back in January but have not heard back.

YMMV.
.

[cpf240]

Wait, so I shouldn't be using the oil I drain out of my diesel Blazer in my A? :-)

[OL JENNY]

I just checked my containers of Rotella and the old Rotella T jugs had a SM rating, but my new containers of Rotella T4 do not have a SM/SN rating. Shucks

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Did everyone hear the suggestion they WANTED to hear?--LOL
Bill Laffin'

[leo]

This is not the first time I've read about not using diesel oils in the Model A engine. I have not read the Model A Times article. There was another article involving much research posted which appeared to have been written by a Model A enthusiast which came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately in that article the problems with diesel motor oil being used were implied and not based on any actual results. I like facts. Has anyone actually had any engine damage that they can show to prove that diesel oil like Rotella 15-40W does harm to Model A engines? I have not seen or read any yet.

[BillCNC]

I have not seen the Model A Times article, but what was their main concerns with using it?

Regards
Bill

[katy]

I like facts.

Why confuse a good story w/facts?

[oldforder]

Originally Posted by OL JENNY

I just checked my containers of Rotella and the old Rotella T jugs had a SM rating, but my new containers of Rotella T4 do not have a SM/SN rating. Shucks

The reason the new oil doesn't have the SM/SN rating is because they still have the high zddp content. The government doesn't want high zddp used in cars with cat. converters, because it slightly shortens the life of them.

[Jim Brierley]

I don't use or recommend diesel oil in my A, only in my diesel pickup. Something to consider, zinc was not in oils when the A was new. The A engine has a steel cam and only 40 lbs. of valve spring pressure. Zinc became important when the OHV V8's came into being. The only V8 not having cam-wear trouble was the Buick, because it had a steel cam. Use modern oil to keep your A engine clean and well-lubricated, better than when they were new.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by oldforder

The reason the new oil doesn't have the SM/SN rating is because they still have the high zddp content. The government doesn't want high zddp used in cars with cat. converters, because it slightly shortens the life of them.

You are correct. We may see the API SM or SN ratings go away on all these oils, even though there is no fundamental change to the oil itself, just to discourage use in cars/trucks with catalytic converters. I'm sure glad my Model A does not have a cat converter on it to poison!

Right now Chevron and Mobil are still showing SM or SN on their equivalent oil to Shell Rotella T 15W40. But they, too, may bow to the EPA pressure not to label it for gasoline engines. That does not mean you can't use it in a Model A.

[Beater]

ive been using DELO 400 all along. 15-40 guess ill continue on

[duke36]

Search the net for a Hemmings article 10-18-2012 about the zinc/ phoshorous discussion. The article coincides with a study reported by the Porsche Club of America where 356 4 cylinder motors were torn down after testing and found similar less desireable results for the lifters, etc. with reduced ZDDP levels. The zinc rich oils were affecting catalytic convertors and some other parts and hence were gradually modified to suit modern engines.

[leo]

duke36, please don't take this in the wrong manner but Porsche 356 motors are not Model A engines and I would not even try to identify the differences between them so it is a moot point. Also as we all know the Model A Ford does not have a catalytic converter......

[ryanheacox]

This is a link to another discussion on Diesel oil in gas engines, this time the Jeep 4.0 which also has a flat tappet cam (yes, I realize the 4.0 isn't a Model A engine).

There were one or two posts about it's effect on catalytic converters. Been awhile since I read it but I remember it was very thorough.

https://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/rot...essing-188168/

[modelAsteve]

Go with what ever is on sale!

[Jeff/Illinois]

I use ZDDP in the '69 Mach 1, because it has a high performance engine.

I don't worry about that in the Model A or the '36 Ford we own with a flattie.

[Kevin in NJ]

The main reason for using diesel oil, at least as told by oil engineers, is the higher level of additives to protect the engine from bad chemicals that form. The A is more likely to develop more bad chemicals because of storage and the lack of active crankcase ventilation. In storage you get moisture condensing on the metal which can then go into the oil and make up acids.

This all also goes back to my assertion that most guys change their oil too often at more financial cost and more detriment to the environment. So by using oils with additives you can safely leave the oil in the car for years or thousand miles with no worry. Plus I have never heard of an engine going bad because someone went too long between changes. Quite frankly if you A engine fails it is because something was not built right (with the rare exception to the guys putting thousands of miles a year on their cars).

Oh ya I like facts.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...l-engine-oils-

[Railcarmover]

Diesel grade engine oils entrain particulate matter better,and have a higher shear and load factor than gasoline grade oils.The higher shear and load factor is way more important for flat tappet engine than the zinc in my opinion,even though diesel grade engine oils have a reasonably high zinc factor already (except for the latest CARB tier 4 engine spec).A higher load factor and better particulate suspension (entrainment,the oils ability to keep debris in suspension instead of depositing it) aids in protecting main bearings.A higher shear factor means the oil is less likely to be pushed off the surface during contact,like tappets.Diesel grade oil has superior detergent factors too,which greatly reduce sludge buildup.

in the end its like ice cream,as long as you have some when you want it the flavor isnt important...

[old31]

Rail, that is not true.

If I cant get my vanilla or coffee then ice cream is just not the same!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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I HAVE seen engines destroyed by NOT changing oil, just adding when it gets LOW. The oil gets contaminated with WATER/ACIDS/GASOLINE/CARBON/ETC!
OHV-V-8s would plug up the drain back holes in the heads, fill the valve covers, suck oil through the valve guides & starve the lower end!!!
Some would NOT change the oil, just change the filter & add a quart. One guy bragged about going 100,000 MILES, on 3 oil changes!!(COMPLETE IDIOT!)
Some cars with hydraulic lifters will tell you your oil needs changing, by their lifters ticking slightly, on a cold start. If you run your oil TOO LONG, it will start to consume MORE oil than usual!
Schools should have a MANDATORY Class, in COMMON SENSE REASONING!
Bill W.

[leo]

OK so are we done here? Obviously not because while there are articles disparaging the use of diesel oil (Rotella 15-40) for reasons stated there has been no evidence of engine damage from it's use to substantiate those claims. Surely you would think that with all Model A owners using this product someone would have come forward to claim engine damage resulting from the use of diesel oil. Don't misunderstand my rant, I respect science, research and people who are knowledgeable in the oil product disciplines. I just don't see any proof about their conclusions regarding diesel oil use in the Model a Ford at this time.

[updraught]

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

Diesel grade engine oils entrain particulate matter better .....A higher load factor and better particulate suspension (entrainment,the oils ability to keep debris in suspension instead of depositing it) aids in protecting main bearings. ... Diesel grade oil has superior detergent factors too,which greatly reduce sludge buildup.

>>aids in protecting main bearings

If you have a filter.

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by updraught

>>aids in protecting main bearings

If you have a filter.

Higher load factor and entrainment..it keeps debris in suspension,instead of depositing them on bearings and the like,the higher load factor stands the pounding just a little bit better..how much? who the hell knows..full flow filtration is the way to go,no matter what oil you use.

[pbishop]

I always use some 'Lucas' in with my oil. Great for cold starting Babbitt bearings. Also use a little Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas a well.

[29er]

The following article by Mr. Andy Weideman of the Rocky Mountain Model A Club should be of interest to readers of this thread. He recommends against using diesel oil suggests the use of synthetic oil. Read why here :

http://rmaford.org/wp-content/blogs....C_Mar_2012.pdf

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by 29er

The following article by Mr. Andy Weideman of the Rocky Mountain Model A Club should be of interest to readers of this thread. He recommends against using diesel oil suggests the use of synthetic oil. Read why here :

http://rmaford.org/wp-content/blogs....C_Mar_2012.pdf

This paper is 6 years old; out of date and full of factual errors.

YMMV.

.

[Smooth_One]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Did everyone hear the suggestion they WANTED to hear?--LOL
Bill Laffin'

Bill I love these kinds of posts to see why everybody does something different and the original question goes unanswered... lol

[29er]

Originally Posted by Jim/TX/GA

This paper is 6 years old; out of date and full of factual errors.

YMMV.

.

"Curious minds want to know!":

In the interest of contributing to our knowledge, can you (1) update those out-of-date items and (2) point out and correct those factual errors?

Thanks!

[Jim M]

Boy did this confuse the heck out of me!!!

[SGT in Ont.]

All anyone needs to do is call the Shell Helps Line and find out what Shell says about their Rotella T 15w40 being used in a antique gas engine. 1-800-661-1771.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

I HAVE seen engines destroyed by NOT changing oil, just adding when it gets LOW. The oil gets contaminated with WATER/ACIDS/GASOLINE/CARBON/ETC!
OHV-V-8s would plug up the drain back holes in the heads, fill the valve covers, suck oil through the valve guides & starve the lower end!!!
Some would NOT change the oil, just change the filter & add a quart. One guy bragged about going 100,000 MILES, on 3 oil changes!!(COMPLETE IDIOT!)
Some cars with hydraulic lifters will tell you your oil needs changing, by their lifters ticking slightly, on a cold start. If you run your oil TOO LONG, it will start to consume MORE oil than usual!
Schools should have a MANDATORY Class, in COMMON SENSE REASONING!
Bill W.

Bill a local farmer that always bought a new full sized Ford or Mercury, was too tight to spring for an oil change all he would do was add oil until about 50,000 miles then trade it in. Problem came when word got around and nobody wanted his cars and the local dealers would run him off, they didn't want them either. And the guy was worth millions, he wasn't broke

[Railcarmover]

One issue I found with the article is omission of the API shear factor information,the oils ability to resist shear is what protects cylinder walls,not some hoo hah about oil burning..Shear is a measurement of the oils ability to lubricate in thin film high load applications,Like diesel engine cylinder walls and flat tappet engines..ZDDP comments are the talk of snake oil salesmen,the guys who sell the high dollar custom oils, they revel in the zinc issue....ask them to show actual failure directly attributable to a lack of zinc and the bullshit goes into high gear,they like to question your intelligence,how dare you question this well believed bullshit story about flat tappets and zinc and why you have to buy the 30 bucks a quart miracle they hustle..the bullshit detector went off when they cited AMS oil..BTW,they also cite Les Andrews..a fine man,a member of my club and a top notch technical writer,but no petroleum engineer.

[BillEbob]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I use ZDDP in the '69 Mach 1, because it has a high performance engine.

I don't worry about that in the Model A or the '36 Ford we own with a flattie.

[B] Like Jeff, in my '69 Mustang I use an oil containing ZDDP, Castrol Racing Oil. The previous owner of my Vicky used Mobil 1. I personally spoke with his engine rebuild mechanic who said he only recommended that regular Chevron 30w be used.

As that brilliant Cuban Mechanical Engineer, Ricky Ricardo said, "¿Quién sábe?

Bill [\B]

[Bikerider58]

The EPA issue with non-gasoline engine oil is the non-low friction additives. Motorcyclist have had these issues for years. Friction reducing additives are good for high gas mileage, but not so good for oil bath clutch plates.

Rosella for my A? It is a good oil and was on sale, so yes, I pick up a couple gallon jugs.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by leo

OK so are we done here? Obviously not because while there are articles disparaging the use of diesel oil (Rotella 15-40) for reasons stated there has been no evidence of engine damage from it's use to substantiate those claims. Surely you would think that with all Model A owners using this product someone would have come forward to claim engine damage resulting from the use of diesel oil. Don't misunderstand my rant, I respect science, research and people who are knowledgeable in the oil product disciplines. I just don't see any proof about their conclusions regarding diesel oil use in the Model a Ford at this time.

I could not agree with you more! One would think with the hoard of engine rebuilders and repair/restoration shops there would be one that would say this or that oil causes failures. I respect their recommendations and would only use what they recommend if I had an engine built by one of them. But like you say Leo, no documented evidence of harm.

To all of you reading this, please use the oil that makes you happy. The oil that will get you out and drive the car often.