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Old 06-18-2021, 10:39 PM   #1
modelacarman
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Default Brake shoe lining

What is the Best brake lining to use with cast-iron drums? The woven tape or soft molded type?
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Old 06-18-2021, 11:04 PM   #2
CWPASADENA
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Woven,

The soft molded is not very soft, not like we had in the "Old Days".

You will find the woven has a much higher coefficient of friction and will stop better with the same pedal effort.

Henry used woven linings with cast iron drums clear up until the war and may be even after that.

Chris W.

Last edited by CWPASADENA; 06-18-2021 at 11:04 PM. Reason: TYPO
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Old 06-19-2021, 12:17 PM   #3
Patrick L.
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

I think the common concensus is/was that woven went with steel and molded with cast.

However many have switched that around to suit their use. Those brakes will work either way.

From what I think I remember from reading/looking years ago that the molded/bonded had the higher C of F. But my memory can be suspect at times. Either way I doubt anyone could tell the difference in the shoes.

I'm using woven in the front and molded in the rear, or, the other way around. I'm pretty sure its because thats what I had when one end needed replacing.
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Old 06-19-2021, 11:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Woven is definitely softer with a higher C of F than the currently available molded.
Woven lining is very compatible with cast iron drums.
Henry made millions of cars with cast iron drums and woven lining.
Henry also made millions of cars with steel drums and woven linings.
There is definitely a big difference in the braking of a Model A that has woven linings to one with molded linings.
If you want the best brakes, use woven linings.

Chris W.

Last edited by CWPASADENA; 06-19-2021 at 11:13 PM. Reason: CLARIFICATION
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Old 06-20-2021, 07:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Lots of opinion, but little data.

So Ford started with woven and switched to molded in 31.

The switch to molded did not happen when they went to cast.

You also leave out there are many different types of materials. Unless you know the materials you have no clue what where when and how.

So until you tell someone the exact type of brake material and the exact type of cast drums you have no real world comparisons. Keep in mind types of metal and types of lining have constantly changed over time. So the just the used nice original cast drums with 40's production Ford molded shoes is going to have a different braking effect then the guy using recently made cast and recently made molded linings.

FWIW, I have half a set of NOS Ford molded linings and they are not like modern molded linings.

In reality the number one problem with brakes is they are put together wrong. If the shoes do not match the diameter of the drums and they are not centered then you will have less then 100% braking.

So do not worry about mixing stuff. Worry about getting them rebuilt right. If you do not have the special tooling to do them right pay someone to make they up for you. It will be money well spent that will last a life time.
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Old 06-20-2021, 08:40 AM   #6
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

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I didn't think Ford [ or maybe others] used woven after the Model A but I doubt I've ever worked on any with original brake linings. I didn't start working on this stuff until the late '50s.
Friction materials have changed over the years, especially since they got rid of the asbestos.
I still think and agree that it isn't going to make noticeable difference which shoes are used. I agree that the difference is how the parts are put together. There is a lot more to the proper working of these brakes than the lining material.
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Old 06-20-2021, 10:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

FWIW, I remember seeing the what I think is the exact same woven lining on ships. They used it as a ‘brake’ for their driveshaft I believe. Or something comparable.

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Old 06-20-2021, 12:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

The brake material coefficient of friction is rated by letter, see below. I don't see any reference to the rating on the Snyders site for their brake shoe material. I think code C is actually .10 to .15.


I agree that installation and environmental factors will play a huge role in how well the shoes work. If they are smoking after coming down a long grade they are not going to work very well. Ditto if you just forged a high creek.
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Old 06-20-2021, 08:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Most linings that I can find today are in the 'F' range. There isn't too much difference between them.
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Old 06-20-2021, 11:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

FWIW
I did a brake job a number of years ago on my 1931 S/W Town Sedan 160B and was not able to get any effective braking. I had new cast iron drums trued, and bonded lining on used shoes arched to the drum. After much time and frustration I learned that the brake shop that did the lining on my old shoes used hard bonded lining. The shoes were glazed and did not engage the cast iron drum.
I believe that hard bonded lining is for hydraulic brakes where you have increased force to engage the hard bonded lining to the brake drum.
I then did a brake job on my 1931 Cabriolet 68B and used cast iron drums with soft bonded lining on used shoes arched to the drum. I spent a lot of time getting the shoes centered; eventually I made my own brake shoe roller pins with a different head diameter for each pin that would center each shoe.
I later learned that in the 50's brake shops were bending the shoe to fit the arc of the drum. When you bend the shoe you change the distance from the center line of the upper hole for the brake adjusting shaft pins and lower hole for the brake shoe roller pins. This affects the ability to center the brake shoe.
I then went back to the brakes on my 1931 160B and as it had cast iron drums I used soft molded lining on new shoes arched to the drum and the result was fantastic!! The shoes were basically centered.

I will never do a brake job unless the shoes are new, with soft molded lining arched to the drum and cast iron drums!!!

Below is the Raybestos KAM Way shoe arching tool
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Old 06-21-2021, 08:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

What 160B said.
You can expand the shoes by giving them a whack in the centre web. So old shoes are probably dodgy.
As an old mechanic said to me in my youth, you need soft linings.
If you are going bonded get them from Randy as he knows where to get the proper soft linings.
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Old 06-22-2021, 05:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Quote:
Originally Posted by 160B View Post
FWIW
I did a brake job a number of years ago on my 1931 S/W Town Sedan 160B and was not able to get any effective braking. I had new cast iron drums trued, and bonded lining on used shoes arched to the drum. After much time and frustration I learned that the brake shop that did the lining on my old shoes used hard bonded lining. The shoes were glazed and did not engage the cast iron drum.
I believe that hard bonded lining is for hydraulic brakes where you have increased force to engage the hard bonded lining to the brake drum.
I then did a brake job on my 1931 Cabriolet 68B and used cast iron drums with soft bonded lining on used shoes arched to the drum. I spent a lot of time getting the shoes centered; eventually I made my own brake shoe roller pins with a different head diameter for each pin that would center each shoe.
I later learned that in the 50's brake shops were bending the shoe to fit the arc of the drum. When you bend the shoe you change the distance from the center line of the upper hole for the brake adjusting shaft pins and lower hole for the brake shoe roller pins. This affects the ability to center the brake shoe.
I then went back to the brakes on my 1931 160B and as it had cast iron drums I used soft molded lining on new shoes arched to the drum and the result was fantastic!! The shoes were basically centered.

I will never do a brake job unless the shoes are new, with soft molded lining arched to the drum and cast iron drums!!!

Below is the Raybestos KAM Way shoe arching tool




What do you think contributed most to the better brakes,

soft linings
Putting the brakes together correctly
both
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Old 06-22-2021, 09:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
What do you think contributed most to the better brakes,

soft linings
Putting the brakes together correctly
both
all of the above and new brake shoes
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Old 06-22-2021, 01:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

I question how many shoes have been changed in diameter. I am not doubting it can be done, but I have a pile of them. I asked a person to check the factory diameter at the archives. I then made a template on a piece of aluminum plate. All the 30 or so shoes I have were spot on with the arc. So selection went to the shoes with the tightest holes at the ends for the pins.

The molded lining used in late production and post production were of a softer material. It is also a different color. It is not the grey/ black you see, but more of a brown.
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Old 06-22-2021, 03:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: Brake shoe lining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
I question how many shoes have been changed in diameter. I am not doubting it can be done, but I have a pile of them. I asked a person to check the factory diameter at the archives. I then made a template on a piece of aluminum plate. All the 30 or so shoes I have were spot on with the arc. So selection went to the shoes with the tightest holes at the ends for the pins.

The molded lining used in late production and post production were of a softer material. It is also a different color. It is not the grey/ black you see, but more of a brown.
pm sent
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