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Old 10-10-2013, 05:24 PM   #1
freak
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Default float crushed from altitude change?

I ordered a new float from Berts in Colorado. When I received it here in Ohio the top of it was smashed in. i called Bert's who claimed that it was the altitude change that did it. (You would have to assume it was made at a high altitude for this to even be feasible.). They were nice about it and are send a new float but now I am nervous. Could any float made at a high altitude fail like this at any time?

Last edited by freak; 10-10-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

hmm well when we went to colorado to an elevation of about 9,000 some feet water bottles that were bought here in IL at about 400 feet looked like balloons about ready to blow up., same with chip bags.

now i made the mistake of bringing a tube of toothpaste from here that was mostly used, it ended up blowing open in my suitcase...

as a fun thing we took an empty water bottle we opened and closed at 10,000+ feet and brought it back to IL and it looked like a prune.

i mean it is possible but i would think a metal float would be OK due to the shape and it being metal. Henry didnt have special made floats back in the day for high altitudes i wouldnt imagine...
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

I shoukl add that the box only had about 1/4" clearance from the top and bottom of the float.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

the higher you go the less pressure on any thing, if any thing it would blow up like a ballon, take it down to 5000 feet in the ocean and it will be crushed, the parts guys is full of shit and ignorant to boot, i bet it was damaged in shippment, and i doubt it was made at that altitude, how many cars have gone from sea level to high altitudes, how many have had there floats crushed, i still say your parts man is full of shit and you need a new one, in over 50 yrs of working on all models of cars i have never see that happen

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Old 10-10-2013, 05:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

It went from Colorado, a high altitude, to Ohio, a low altitude.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

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I bought a rebuilt Zenith from Bert's and sent to me in Michigan 900' altitude. I haven't pulled it apart but I haven't experienced any problems. If there was a float problem I'm sure it would turn up by now.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Hey, no hassle, you are getting a new one. Bert's is one of the best.

Was the shipping box damaged?
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

If it crushed due to Altitude, it would have had to be manufactured at that altitude and then shipped to a lower altitude. Manufactured at sea level it would have that atmospheric pressure in it. About 14.6 lbs. But since that is atmospheric, the recordable "pressure" is zero. Shipped to 6000 feet it would find itself at an atmospheric pressure of about 12. So now it would have about 2.6 lbs of pressure in it. Presuming it held that pressure, it would return to zero when shipped back to sea level. Since a Potatoe Chip Bag will hold the pressure, I am pretty confident a float would as well.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

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Originally Posted by spdway1 View Post
Hey, no hassle, you are getting a new one. Bert's is one of the best.

Was the shipping box damaged?

No damage. I was concerned because he told me that it sometimes happens do to the altitude change. If they are having such a problem, maybe because of too thin of brass, I don't want to put it in my carb.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

I use to work for an Air Cargo Airline that flew unpressurized aircraft. Potato chip bags would explode at around 10,000 ft.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:03 PM   #11
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Yo, BERT's, Dog here, Problem solved. Jist prick a little hole in the float thingy, along with a sticky note: "When you git this float thingy, jist SOLDER UP the PIN HOLE"! (EASY!) Buster T.
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File Type: jpg FLOAT.jpg (7.2 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg BUSTER 2.jpg (31.2 KB, 8 views)
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

I just bought this new one because of a pin hole!!!!
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

If Bert's reports this problem as altitude related, there may be some link to the manufacturing technique.

It is impossible to solder together a float without having any heat transfer to the air inside. If the air inside reaches 300F at the time the solder flows and seals the float, cooling to 70F will drop the internal pressure about 5.5 psi. If it was indeed manufactured at a high altitude like Denver (630 Torr) then sent down to sea level (760 Torr) the pressure differential would increase another 2.5 psi, to a total of 8 psi, enough to crush a paper thin brass float.

FWIW, applying Charles/Boyle's gas laws, the internal pressure change in a float between winter storage at 0F and a hot underhood of 150F is about 3.6 psi

The answer to this would be to look at the manufacturing process, probably sealing a final hole on a cold rather than overall-heated float.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlG View Post
I use to work for an Air Cargo Airline that flew unpressurized aircraft. Potato chip bags would explode at around 10,000 ft.
I fly unpressurized cargo airplanes (single pilot) and often will leave my lunch in the seat next to me. I climb from sea level to 12,000 daily to cross the cascade mountain range and once in a while my bag of chips will pop and gives me a good startle! Big bangs are never good but no changes with the gauges, then I'll glance over and notice my lays chips are deflated (the bag blows up like a balloon in the climb). That's usually about time to level off and then its snack time.

I suppose its possible for a float to be damaged from such a pressure change but I think its HIGHLY unlikely. I would assume floats are usually manufactured and sealed closer to sea level anyway. Denver is at 5,500ft (roughly) and the float would have to be resoldered at that altitude to have a lower pressure inside the float than your altitude (closer to sea level) for a crushing force and it wouldn't be much. Potentially enough to make the thin brass "oil can" slightly inward but I think the structural shape and strength would prevent that. Most packages are shipped in pressurized airplanes and the cabin and cargo pressure never goes above roughly an 8,000ft equivalent and the pressure controller changes inside cargo / cabin pressure much more gradually than what I often experience in my unpressurized airplane.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

I have an old Bantam crane that the float would deflate sometime during the winter months. I had a hole I punched with a scriber and would put air pressure to it after melting the soldier. After I inflated it I would soldier it back up. Never did know what was happening unless it froze some way. Changed type of carburetor and never has happened again.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

I heard a story about a bush pilot in Alaska that was hired to haul a newly-dead body from a small town to a big one, where it would be properly dealt with at a mortuary. He had removed the passenger seat to make room for the corpse. He climbed to cruising altitude and along the way encountered rough air, getting tossed around a bit. Apparently that and the decomposition gases in the corpse caused it to sit up. Pilot nearly fainted.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:43 PM   #17
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
If Bert's reports this problem as altitude related, there may be some link to the manufacturing technique.

It is impossible to solder together a float without having any heat transfer to the air inside. If the air inside reaches 300F at the time the solder flows and seals the float, cooling to 70F will drop the internal pressure about 5.5 psi. If it was indeed manufactured at a high altitude like Denver (630 Torr) then sent down to sea level (760 Torr) the pressure differential would increase another 2.5 psi, to a total of 8 psi, enough to crush a paper thin brass float.

FWIW, applying Charles/Boyle's gas laws, the internal pressure change in a float between winter storage at 0F and a hot underhood of 150F is about 3.6 psi

The answer to this would be to look at the manufacturing process, probably sealing a final hole on a cold rather than overall-heated float.
This all makes sense, Mike, When I've repaired leaky floats, I submerge them in warm water, look for bubbles, solder them up, with the smallest soldering iron that will suffice. NEVER use even a TINY TORCH! If wirebrushed nicely, they solder well with rosin core solder. THEN punch a small hole to drain any water. After it's back to room temp, I solder the hole QUICKLY with a very SMALL soldering IRON. I've successfully repaired MANY floats on old S.U. carbs on Volvos & Jaguars. Bill W.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Hi Guys,I am the parts guy refered to as ignorant and full of shit.I have heard of this problem with altitude and floats before.It was only a guess but.I stayed late at Berts packaged a new float for our customer , hand delivered it to the post office priority mail to try to help our customer.I don't believe any one at Berts deserves to be called ignorant and full of shit .We work hard every to day to help our customers with their problems.Check the ATTA BOYS ! we receive on here all the time.Phil Turner, Berts Model A
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Right on. I was pretty sure you didn't just stomp on it, before shipping it.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:46 AM   #20
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Default Re: float crushed from altitude change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by old1928fordguy View Post
Hi Guys,I am the parts guy refered to as ignorant and full of shit.I have heard of this problem with altitude and floats before.It was only a guess but.I stayed late at Berts packaged a new float for our customer , hand delivered it to the post office priority mail to try to help our customer.I don't believe any one at Berts deserves to be called ignorant and full of shit .We work hard every to day to help our customers with their problems.Check the ATTA BOYS ! we receive on here all the time.Phil Turner, Berts Model A
Dog here,
ATTA' BOY! Phil, giv'em the riot act! Guys like you that try their best to he'p a passel uf GRUMPY OL' farts deserve a MEDAL, (GOLD) Tell'em if they gonna' BAD MOUTH you, to post their UGLY mug shot & their IRRITATING cell phone # (You know, the ones that rings---AHOOOOGA!)
Ol' Bill lost his KAHOOOGA when Cindy got him a new POCKET FONE (Now his fone jist goes---FAAART----FAAART---FAAART) I try NOT to LAFF
You gotta' Dog, Phil? Buster T.
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