The Ford Barn

daveymc29 · 07-19-2019, 03:44 PM

So here's the "Ace Mechanic" off to coffee with my honey. Leap in the coupe, start the engine and put it in reverse, let the clutch out and it just sits there. Take the roadster to coffee and upon returning jack the rear up and put it on jack stands, I can turn a rear wheel forward and the opposite rear revolves backward. Put it in reverse and both wheels sort of idle along in reverse, with the motor running. All three forward gears seem to spin the wheel a bit faster so I take out the jack-stands and with the wheels on the ground there is no reverse, push the car outside and there are three speeds forward but no reverse.Solenoid clicks in and out with a loud "click." Sort of puzzles me, no bad sounds last night as I drove home from Livermore to Danville, about 20+ miles, O/D worked just fine. Any clues what I should look for and how to go about it? Mitchell transmission ahead of a Borg Warner O/D welded into the torque tube. Controlled by electric solenoid and push/pull cable. Has worked well for a couple of years with no issues. (See the last Restorer

Thanks
Ace is stumped at the moment.

Dick Steinkamp · 07-19-2019, 04:02 PM

Did you ever back up with the OD engaged?

Dave in MN · 07-19-2019, 04:12 PM

One Borg Warner overdrive I drove on a '28 Phaeton free wheeled in overdrive. This would mean it would not move the car in reverse if the overdrive is engaged. You might get a wheel-spin in reverse when on jack stands due to the internal friction. I think the car had to be moving to ensure the overdrive either went in or out of engagement...It has been so long now that I cannot remember...
So it may be okay or it may not be but it seems it is stuck in overdrive.
Let us know what you find!
Good Day!

Tom Endy · 07-19-2019, 05:05 PM

Inside the Borg Warner is a sheet metal oil shield. It is prone to becoming bent by not being oriented correctly. If it becomes bent it will not allow the cable to pull it completely out of the overdrive mode, and even with the solenoid not powered you will not be able to back up.

The old motors manual caution about this phenonium.

I had it happen to me one time, I backed the car out of the garage and drove to the post office using the overdrive on the way, When I went to back up at the post office I could not.

Unfortunately the only resolve is to take the overdrive apart and bend the oil shield back into place.

Go to the web site of the Santa Anita A's and under my name scroll to the overdrive section, there are photos and information about it.

Tom Endy

Tom Endy · 07-19-2019, 05:09 PM

Pull up the link and scroll to photos 26 and 27.

Tom Endy

http://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-conte...ner-Repair.pdf

daveymc29 · 07-20-2019, 10:42 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

So it appears that the oil may have leaked past the seal into the banjo. While on the jack stands I ran the rpm up to shift into O/D and there is considerable noise coming from the O/D unit. I will drain both it and the banjo and am in the process of removing the whole thing for disassembly and possible repair or replacement. Should have done that before I installed it, probably would have saved myself a lot of money. But then part of the hobby is learning, isn't it?

Y-Blockhead · 07-20-2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveymc29

But then part of the hobby is learning, isn't it?

Learning and a reason to buy more TOOLS!!

daveymc29 · 07-20-2019, 09:01 PM

So, drained the O?D into a large pan and figured it might have been a bit low. Set that aside and proceeded to remove the differential and got that out this afternoon. Looked at the oil and recon it to be a full Qt. As I recall that is the amount I put in it when I got it, so must be other than low oil that caused the malfunction. Won't be doing much for a couple or three days but I will let you know what I find when I open it up. Tom Endy has a load of info on the Santa Ana A;s site that may get me back on the road. If it appears too much money, I do have another stock torque tube to get by til I hit the lotto and can buy A495, or maybe a Ford Tri-motor. Always liked to watch them fly. Bush Pilot, Bill Woods had one he flew over our house two or three times a week. It is in the museum in Multnoma Or. right behind the Spruce Goose, As is his Stagger Wing Beach which I also saw often.

History · 07-21-2019, 01:50 AM

I've been to that aviation museum, it is unbelievable for anyone who's interested in aviation. They also have an sr-71 which was inspired by the model a (all black)

.

Good luck with your driveline problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveymc29

So, drained the O?D into a large pan and figured it might have been a bit low. Set that aside and proceeded to remove the differential and got that out this afternoon. Looked at the oil and recon it to be a full Qt. As I recall that is the amount I put in it when I got it, so must be other than low oil that caused the malfunction. Won't be doing much for a couple or three days but I will let you know what I find when I open it up. Tom Endy has a load of info on the Santa Ana A;s site that may get me back on the road. If it appears too much money, I do have another stock torque tube to get by til I hit the lotto and can buy A495, or maybe a Ford Tri-motor. Always liked to watch them fly. Bush Pilot, Bill Woods had one he flew over our house two or three times a week. It is in the museum in Multnoma Or. right behind the Spruce Goose, As is his Stagger Wing Beach which I also saw often.

Mike Peters · 07-21-2019, 09:48 AM

We've run a B/W overdrive in our 28 Tudor for many years with no trouble, until last fall on a club tour. Let's just say that it made a "clunk" sound and that was it. No forward and no reverse. Borgs are great until they die a sudden death. Now have a Mitchell waiting to be installed.

daveymc29 · 07-26-2019, 10:16 PM

So here's the "Ace Mechanic" with egg all over his face. The good news is the overdrive looks like new inside. the bad news is that I took it apart to find that out. The problem was I couldn't make it back up because it was in free wheeling. Stupid mistake, but I did learn one of my wheel bearings is making a lot of noise, so some good has come of all this time spent pulling things apart. Live and learn, jokes on me this time.
Thanks to all that offered help tips. I hope I have given you all another good laugh.
Dave Mc Arthur

Synchro909 · 07-26-2019, 10:28 PM

Not laughing - just pleased things turned out as well as they did.

07-19-2019, 03:44 PM	#1
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Back up or not to back up. that is the question So here's the "Ace Mechanic" off to coffee with my honey. Leap in the coupe, start the engine and put it in reverse, let the clutch out and it just sits there. Take the roadster to coffee and upon returning jack the rear up and put it on jack stands, I can turn a rear wheel forward and the opposite rear revolves backward. Put it in reverse and both wheels sort of idle along in reverse, with the motor running. All three forward gears seem to spin the wheel a bit faster so I take out the jack-stands and with the wheels on the ground there is no reverse, push the car outside and there are three speeds forward but no reverse.Solenoid clicks in and out with a loud "click." Sort of puzzles me, no bad sounds last night as I drove home from Livermore to Danville, about 20+ miles, O/D worked just fine. Any clues what I should look for and how to go about it? Mitchell transmission ahead of a Borg Warner O/D welded into the torque tube. Controlled by electric solenoid and push/pull cable. Has worked well for a couple of years with no issues. (See the last Restorer Thanks Ace is stumped at the moment.

07-19-2019, 04:02 PM	#2
Dick Steinkamp Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 1,163	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question Did you ever back up with the OD engaged? __________________ All steel from pedal to wheel

07-19-2019, 04:12 PM	#3
Dave in MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jordan, MN Posts: 1,411	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question One Borg Warner overdrive I drove on a '28 Phaeton free wheeled in overdrive. This would mean it would not move the car in reverse if the overdrive is engaged. You might get a wheel-spin in reverse when on jack stands due to the internal friction. I think the car had to be moving to ensure the overdrive either went in or out of engagement...It has been so long now that I cannot remember... So it may be okay or it may not be but it seems it is stuck in overdrive. Let us know what you find! Good Day! Last edited by Dave in MN; 07-19-2019 at 07:09 PM.

07-19-2019, 05:05 PM	#4
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question Inside the Borg Warner is a sheet metal oil shield. It is prone to becoming bent by not being oriented correctly. If it becomes bent it will not allow the cable to pull it completely out of the overdrive mode, and even with the solenoid not powered you will not be able to back up. The old motors manual caution about this phenonium. I had it happen to me one time, I backed the car out of the garage and drove to the post office using the overdrive on the way, When I went to back up at the post office I could not. Unfortunately the only resolve is to take the overdrive apart and bend the oil shield back into place. Go to the web site of the Santa Anita A's and under my name scroll to the overdrive section, there are photos and information about it. Tom Endy

07-19-2019, 05:09 PM	#5
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question Pull up the link and scroll to photos 26 and 27. Tom Endy http://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-conte...ner-Repair.pdf

07-20-2019, 10:42 AM	#6
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) So it appears that the oil may have leaked past the seal into the banjo. While on the jack stands I ran the rpm up to shift into O/D and there is considerable noise coming from the O/D unit. I will drain both it and the banjo and am in the process of removing the whole thing for disassembly and possible repair or replacement. Should have done that before I installed it, probably would have saved myself a lot of money. But then part of the hobby is learning, isn't it?

07-20-2019, 09:01 PM	#8
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question So, drained the O?D into a large pan and figured it might have been a bit low. Set that aside and proceeded to remove the differential and got that out this afternoon. Looked at the oil and recon it to be a full Qt. As I recall that is the amount I put in it when I got it, so must be other than low oil that caused the malfunction. Won't be doing much for a couple or three days but I will let you know what I find when I open it up. Tom Endy has a load of info on the Santa Ana A;s site that may get me back on the road. If it appears too much money, I do have another stock torque tube to get by til I hit the lotto and can buy A495, or maybe a Ford Tri-motor. Always liked to watch them fly. Bush Pilot, Bill Woods had one he flew over our house two or three times a week. It is in the museum in Multnoma Or. right behind the Spruce Goose, As is his Stagger Wing Beach which I also saw often.

07-21-2019, 09:48 AM	#10
Mike Peters Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: South East Wisconsin Posts: 1,279	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question We've run a B/W overdrive in our 28 Tudor for many years with no trouble, until last fall on a club tour. Let's just say that it made a "clunk" sound and that was it. No forward and no reverse. Borgs are great until they die a sudden death. Now have a Mitchell waiting to be installed.

07-26-2019, 10:16 PM	#11
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question So here's the "Ace Mechanic" with egg all over his face. The good news is the overdrive looks like new inside. the bad news is that I took it apart to find that out. The problem was I couldn't make it back up because it was in free wheeling. Stupid mistake, but I did learn one of my wheel bearings is making a lot of noise, so some good has come of all this time spent pulling things apart. Live and learn, jokes on me this time. Thanks to all that offered help tips. I hope I have given you all another good laugh. Dave Mc Arthur

07-26-2019, 10:28 PM	#12
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Back up or not to back up. that is the question Not laughing - just pleased things turned out as well as they did. __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.