1932 The Deuce, Dually, Dump Truck

[sugarmaker]

Tubman, David, Folks,
Well this crack looks even worse after some scrubbing. multiple hair line fissures. I believe it may be from freezing also. I am going to give this one more chance and have called on a third welder to come and look at it. And I have a fourth welder that is very good if I need him. We will do a little more evaluation of this potential repair of the crack before the death notice is signed on this block. At this time it is resting comfortably! Sure glad I seen this issue! Would have really been disappointed with myself if I had gotten well into this engine #2 assembly or even if it had got in the truck and then found it!
Things lurk in the shadows of these old engines. I also should have known better and should have cleaned the block better and did a good visual exam when I got it home. I did not! Another good reason that pressure testing these old blocks is one of the first steps in a known situation.
I also found that the baffle in the oil pan was not in place and had been rubbing on the bottom of the crank. Must have made a heck or a racket! Maybe that is why this engine was removed from its original vehicle? Then had just water and froze on a cold winter night in Mid Tennessee and broke the block? That's my story!
On a side note but related, a larger .040 over sized piston can now slide through each cylinder bore. That was not the case a couple days ago. So some adjustments happened while I was resting!
Regards,
Chris

[Bob C]

That happens to Model A's also, not the end of the world. See the link.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...d+block&page=2

[sugarmaker]

Bob, Folks,
Maybe there is a ray of hope for the block damage on this #2 engine? Thanks for the link and support too. Gave me some ideas. Maybe silver solder fix??
So If I was to pressure test a block to look for other issue, I would need to plug all the water areas. Since these are not pressure systems would low pressure air be better than water? So I would have to seal off the water pump area and the exit to the radiator from the block?
I guess I am concerned that there may be another spot that froze and broke on this block that I may not be able to see?
Off to see the wizard!
Regards,
Chris

[DavidG]

Chris,


The opening on the side of the block is the water inlet; it exits through the water pump to the radiator.

[sugarmaker]

David, Folks,
Thanks for the clairification on the inlet outlet path. I am learning every day!
So the cracked block:
Looks a lot like a road map! Friend Jim F came over and thinks it can be brazed.


While looking at options he felt it would be good to get a better handle on the cracks. Off to the big city to get die penetrante for checking.


Cleaned then wipe it off and allow to dry then the die applied:


Allow 15 min then wipe it off and spray on the white developer:


I did pick up some nickle rod as a secondary approach to stuffing something in these cracks. The casting is very thin in this area too. Should be a challange!
Off into the world of antique tractor pulling with two of the Allis-Chalmers today. Traveling to Sherman NY to Meeders farm fun pulls.

While resting I installed the wall covering material behind the jib crane. Here it is half done, like about every thing I do.


Hope things are good in Ford Land!
Regards,
Chris

[Bored&Stroked]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

One thing for sure, you'll really want to preheat. I'd also recommend welding blankets to slow the cooling process down. You might want to try silicon bronze TIG rod - if you happen to have a TIG setup. No matter what you do, I'd sure practice on some similar cast iron - to get the hang of it first.

[sugarmaker]

Dale,
Thanks! I will have to get creative on the heat up and cool down methods!
Regards,
Chris

[51504bat]

When I was working in the Post machine shop as part of Project Transition before I got out of the Army we had a large box filled with lime that we used to gradually cool down critical parts that had been welded. Don't know if something like that would work on the block or not. It would be fairly easy to build a large box but I have know idea how much lime it would take or the cost or if its even the correct process. Those with much more knowledge than me will know for sure.

[Floyd]

You will get get all kind of opinions on this. However the true real story is you can not successfully weld cast iron with electric welding, no matter what rod you use. The localized small area from the arc will create cemetite, martinsite (iron carbide) and will crack over time. Gas welding with cast iron rod (made from cast iron, not nickel) will work as you must heat a large area. For welding, the preheat must be 1200 degrees F and for a block must take 24 hours to heat up and 24 to 30 hours to cool. Brazing is the best bet and done with gas torch. Preheat must be 900 degrees F. This is the process used for remanufacturing diesel engine blocks and cylinder heats. I have seen this done on certified Cat , Detroit and Cummings factory reman engines. For the non believers, you can actually go to the lock n stitch website and they will confirm this. Without proper pre heating and not using gas will eventually fail by cracking. Properly done even a high performance a exhaust manifold can be repaired Build an igloo out of fire brick and blankets and use a natural gas large torch and heat it up to 900 degrees and braze it. 24 hours to preheat and 24 hour to cool.
that will work.

[expavr]

“Brazing is the best bet and done with gas torch. Preheat must be 900 degrees F. This is the process used for remanufacturing diesel engine blocks and cylinder heats. I have seen this done on certified Cat , Detroit and Cummings factory reman engines. For the non believers, you can actually go to the lock n stitch website and they will confirm this. Without proper pre heating and not using gas will eventually fail by cracking. Properly done even a high performance a exhaust manifold can be repaired Build an igloo out of fire brick and blankets and use a natural gas large torch and heat it up to 900 degrees and braze it. 24 hours to preheat and 24 hour to cool.
that will work.”

I had a long crack similar to the one in your block in the water jacket of a 33 Chrysler straight 8 repaired by brazing. Keep in mind that with that process you will likely have to line bore and deck the block.

[sugarmaker]

Gentlemen thank you for the positive and productive comments. With those details my chance for success on repairing this block may be very low. As I do not have the facilities/ equipment to preheat and or cool down that unit to those requirements at this time. So we will do another review of the process tomorrow and decide the next moves on the cracked block issues.

Your continued support and information is very valuable as I learn some additional details about repairs like this.

Very warm here today! Friend Jim from Bugs & Tugs, and I pulled old Allis tractors today. Two classes 4000 lb and 4500 lb antique class and won in both. Was a good day for the orange team!

Regards,
Chris

[sugarmaker]

Ford Folks,
Ok here is the plan. Jim F is going to come and do the brazing on this cracked block. Heating will be done with oxy/ actelene torch. Then braze and then a slow cool down.
I think I have some insulation that we can wrap the block in.
I did open all the valves and pull the cam and gear. I was a little worried that the phonelic gear might be compromised with the heat in that area
Will get some pictures.
Regards,
Chris.

[tubman]

Good luck; I am waiting to see how this turns out. About 20 years ago , I hit the wall with my hemi-powered modified and broke two of the three "ears" cast into the block where the motor mounts bolt on. I talked to a friend of mine (who was a union sprinkler system pipe-fitter), and he said "bring 'er over". I had found one of the broken "ears" on the track after the race, but the third was missing. He went out in his back field, perused some of the old equipment there, and knocked an ear off an old hay rake with a big hammer. He than fired up his old stick welder with nickel rod, and after considerable pre-heating, he welded both "ears" back on. My job during all of this was to hold his oxy/acetylene torch on the area pre-heating and gradually cooling down, while he drank about a dozen beers.

It's still holding fine.

[Floyd]

Here are some pics of welding cast iron done correctly by certified remanufacturing company suppling genuine reman engines, blocks and heads to Cat, Cummins, etc. There is no electric welder in the cast iron room. Electric welding is used only in the crankshaft department for building up cranks back to standard. The bunch of heads are in for crack repairs that radiate from valve to valve and injector holes. They will be gas welded with cast iron, no nickel rod allowed. They actually puddle the entire combustion chamber and remachine the entire head. These guys know what they are doing.
Just trying to be helpful, preheating, cooling and gas welding are key.

[Bob C]

That would be one way of getting the babbitt out.

[sugarmaker]

Tubman,
Floyd,
Bob,
Folks,
Well engine #2 saga continues. Its late to late for me to post much about brazing the block. But it has enough barze on it that it could qualify as a early Model T!
Some highlights: Started at 3:00 Just got in the house at midnight from playing with it all afternoon and evening.
Bottom line is that this was not easy! Did we get the cracks? Well maybe? mre testing in the morning.
Did we reduce the size of the hole in the block? yes when I checked by actually filling the block with water it was only a trickle. Drained and took one last try at it.
Yes preheating something like this and cool down is not easy/ straight forward.
This portion of the block was only about .040 thick. About like doing body work.
We made many more cracks and chased those.
The dye worked well to locate the problems.
I would say there is a 40%- 50% chance this brazing work will allow this engine to run and hold water again. Was a great learning experience for me!
Will have some pictures tomorrow.
More testing then too.
Regards,
Chris

[Tinker]

So is there a reason you must fix this block or why your not trying to get another line on another block? I get it b blocks aren't falling out of trees. Very neat, hope it works! How do you weld internal cracks in the water jackets?


Interesting concept could be to electrical charge a motor and infuse it with an element like powdercoating. Then bake the motor. I realize this doesn't exist but a concept anyways.





.

[Mart]

I think it is easy to over think these repairs. This is a non pressurised system. Give it your best shot. If a small leak remains, it ought to be able to be dealt with with jb weld type material and/or a stop leak additive in the water. I say water because it is probably better to run plain water initially while chasing down any leaks.
It's an old truck that will probably never see long journeys.
You need to approach it with your Grandpa's mindset.
Mart.

[sugarmaker]

Originally Posted by Tinker

So is there a reason you must fix this block or why your not trying to get another line on another block? I get it b blocks aren't falling out of trees. Very neat, hope it works! How do you weld internal cracks in the water jackets?


Interesting concept could be to electrical charge a motor and infuse it with an element like powdercoating. Then bake the motor. I realize this doesn't exist but a concept anyways.
.

Tinker,
Neat concept to seal from the inside out! That's creative thinking!
So this #2 block is a challange/ learning/ Prototype, we should be able to make a running engine out of it, block. And I am learning.

Question of the day is the front and rear seals. Any one want to walk me through that?

Also valve adjustment doesnt look to be easy on these!!
I have valve lash from .000 to .040! Yikes! More on that later.

The #1 block is at the machine shop waiting for its turn to get remachined into a good engine someday?

Regards,
Chris

[sugarmaker]

Mart, Folks,
I am real good at over thinking things too. The almost engineer in me comes out. But the jack of all trades comes out and I poke at something till it moves and squeals!

We started with a sad broken B block with a road map of cracks!


Friend Jim F did most of the brazing till I found more cracks after he left and tried my hand at it too:








I did remember I had some high temp Insulblanket to use as a heat retention cover.


So as soon as we would get done brazing the thin casting would crack in another spot.We probably did 10 of those. frustrating but just kept hitting at it!

When done I set the block down and filled with water. found one spot leaking, drained and cleaned that area up and brazed again. Thats the current status. Definitely not pretty!

I did pull the cam so the gear would not get hot. The lifters were very worn from the valve stems. Like some were .040 deep into the lifter stem where the valve end touches. I know this is not a good thing. I put all but one, un worn lifters in here from my # 1 engine which will get adjustable lifters.
But now the lash seems way too tight on some. More info needed on a farmer fix for the valves. Dont be to hard on me on this one! Humm Maybe a set of adjustable lifters might be the answer in this situation also?? I think the valves and seats would run pretty well as they are.

Tractor pulls tonight and wood interior work mixed in there too!
Hope things are good in Ford land!

Regards,
Chris



Regards,
Chris