The Ford Barn

Roadster Rich · 09-20-2016, 12:02 PM

I have done a search of all the centering threads on the forum and there is good info available. I put Flathead Teds brake parts on my car almost two years ago. I did not center the front shoes top to bottom. As I adjust the brakes and move the adjuster in, I can definitely tell that I start to get uneven grabbing. Ie. the wheel turns freely for 180 degrees then rubs for the other 180. This occurs up until it grabs pretty tightly prior to locking. This has been with very little driving since the brake install. There is a slight pull to the left so I went back to adjusting with the 1/2 inch increments. Does this imply the front needs centering? If so I will get the measuring tool and go back to readjust.

H. L. Chauvin · 09-20-2016, 12:17 PM

One humble opinion:

If you ever build a house without a level, a carpenter's square, a measuring tape, and/or a plumb bob, the final results will always be noticeable by sensitive individuals.

Measuring tools of any type are usually used by those who prefer precision.

Brake shoe centering on a Model A front brake job is only about as important as putting on a parachute after one's plane ran out of fuel.

Roadster Rich · 09-20-2016, 12:31 PM

I accept the criticism about precision. Finding lots of things that I have not done exactly right on my A for the years I have worked on it. But with that said, I have driven the car since I was 15 and it is still in remarkable shape. I think what that says is that Ford designed a car that will put up with hacks like me quite nicely.

The question is mainly, The fact that as I tighten the wedge, I get uneven grab as the wheel is rotated, does this imply a centering issue or something else?

wmws · 09-20-2016, 01:02 PM

After you adjust the wedge step hard on the brake once and then spin the wheel. You might find that uneven grab has gone away.

Marshall V. Daut · 09-20-2016, 01:17 PM

Make sure when you turn the adjusting wedge that you wiggle the wrench to ensure the brake shoe clevis tip is sitting between two wedge ridges. It's easy to turn the wedge and end up on top of a ridge, which will make the drum seem tighter against the brake shoes. Wiggle the wrench back forth when you think you have the adjustment set properly. Don't believe me? For grins and giggles, set the wedge and wiggle the wrench to where you think is right. Spin the wheel to get the feel for it. Then slightly turn the wrench one way or another. Not enough to click it, but just enough to exert pressure. Feel the drum begin to bind? That's how sensitive the seemingly simple adjuster design is.
Your shoes will wear circular with enough use and religious tightening. The high spots will be worn off between adjustments and then you will get 100% brake shoe contact. That's the idea behind arching the shoes to drums during rebuilding. That is doing in advance what you would be doing by driving. Keep tightening the wedges often until you feel the shoes grabbing evenly and effectively.
Marshall

H. L. Chauvin · 09-20-2016, 01:18 PM

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Hi Rich,

In my opinion, it is a centering issue which resembles either an eccentric circle turning outside a concentric circle ........... or a concentric circle turning outside of an eccentric circle, where the centers of both circles are not located at the same location.

I really greatly admire your Model A Ford statement:

"I think what that says is that Ford designed a car that will put up with hacks like me
quite nicely."

I bought my 1930 Coupe for $25.00 in 1958 which was as worn out as anyone could possibly imagine.

I think if I would have entered it in a Judged Model A car show even as late as 1996, I
could have been awarded the most worn out Model A of the Century ....... however, it always started, the differential sounded like a corn grinder between 30 and 35, no windshield wiper, no shocks, incorrect muffler, bur I never needed a tow.

sphanna · 09-20-2016, 01:31 PM

So far you have not received and answer to your question. Be patient and I believe you will. There are some very knowledgeable and helpful people on this site. Your question is legit but I do not think I have the expertise to confidently answer the question. I think the answer is not related to the centering of the shoe, but perhaps an out of round drum. Seems that if your shoe makes contact at any point it should make contact the same all the way around. If it was not centered then I think your shoes would wear more at one end than on the other. And actually improve contact as wear occurs.

sphanna · 09-20-2016, 01:34 PM

Ok, see I told you that you would get help. looks like a couple of the guys got in as I was typing to you. You are getting help.

Dick Steinkamp · 09-20-2016, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Make sure when you turn the adjusting wedge that you wiggle the wrench to ensure the brake shoe clevis tip is sitting between two wedge ridges.

There are no ridges in the Flathead Ted adjusters that the OP has installed. With Ted's kit, the trailing shoe should engage the drum first, then it "pushes" the leading shoe into the drum (poor man's self energizing brakes). If the Flathead Ted parts were installed completely and correctly, the brakes self center (float).

sphanna · 09-20-2016, 01:43 PM

see posts 11 and 12 on the post by modelacarman on Brake Drums. that is what I was trying to say in my response

Tiny · 09-20-2016, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

There are no ridges in the Flathead Ted adjusters that the OP has installed. With Ted's kit, the trailing shoe should engage the drum first, then it "pushes" the leading shoe into the drum (poor man's self energizing brakes). If the Flathead Ted parts were installed completely and correctly, the brakes self center (float).

Yes this is exactly what happens. You can feel them push, grab, then lock.

H. L. Chauvin · 09-20-2016, 03:14 PM

Aside from Ted's later set up, FWIW, as regards the original Ford design, the A-2051-F brake floater kit offered by Model A parts suppliers can help equalize pressure on original Model A Ford front brakes.

"Secrets of Speed Magazine" published many years ago how to make and convert the original A-2051 wedge studs from scratch -- I made my own back then and they worked well.

Dereksfl · 09-20-2016, 03:30 PM

I have been thinking about installing Ted's Brake Kit. Does it really make a difference in stopping the A?

Tiny · 09-20-2016, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dereksfl

I have been thinking about installing Ted's Brake Kit. Does it really make a difference in stopping the A?

I regularly drive two Model A's a 31 truck with rebuilt stock brakes and a 31 coupe with Ted's. The truck comes to a stop like a Model A should. The Coupe will lock all four wheels up and STOP right now!!! Also it takes less pedal pressure to stop the coupe. Both have Cast Iron drums which are a must also. The truck will get them in the near future. I feel safer in traffic in the coupe knowing I can panic stop if need be. I would recommend them to anyone that drive their car much.

Dereksfl · 09-20-2016, 06:00 PM

Thanks for the info. After I install them I may need to rename my car. Her name is Whoa Nellie!!

larrys40 · 09-21-2016, 04:15 AM

Rich,
I agree with H.L. that it is probably a centering issue. Get a centering gauge and get the issue corrected whatever it may be with the floater setup. if the tracks are worn they will have to be welded and repaired, or replaced if you choose.

Personally I'm not a fan of the brake floaters as I feel that if the original system is "restored" and "adjusted" properly that they work excellent. I believe that one of the "Teds" instructions calls for removing the long upper spring. In my opinion this can cause as many problems as it sounds they may solve with his setup. Not knocking the floater setup, but I think the system should float at the bottom and not have the shoes flopping on the top end.
Again, the original design works great. Restoring brakes are one of my specialties.

Larry Shepard

RUNNERBUN · 09-21-2016, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

There are no ridges in the Flathead Ted adjusters that the OP has installed. With Ted's kit, the trailing shoe should engage the drum first, then it "pushes" the leading shoe into the drum (poor man's self energizing brakes). If the Flathead Ted parts were installed completely and correctly, the brakes self center (float).

Dick is correct about Flathead Teds Floater Kit. It is self centering. I suspect your problem will most likely be out of round Brake Drums.

Roadster Rich · 09-21-2016, 06:34 AM

Thanks for the good advice. I decided to put her back on the stands and go back into the front brakes. I still have the original steel drums. They are banded, and the thickness was checked but I did not check for roundness. I will try to follow directions and do this right, this advice will help for sure. Maybe the next thing to spend on will be new drums.

kenparker · 09-21-2016, 07:13 AM

RR. Your info about the "original steel drums" and "they are banded" help diagonose what I think is the problem. Opinion. Original steel drums are probably thin that is less then .120 thick. If so they are easily warped by heat from operating the shoes or worse yet a dragging shoe from out of round. I have put on and taken off several sets of bands (btw have two sets for sale) and have never found a set perfectly round. Now my opinion. Your original drums with bands ae Out OF Round....and it only takes a couple thousands for the brake to pulsate as you apply the brakes. Then as the brakes heat up from applying they warp even more.

Yes it is expensive. Get a set of Cast Iron barke drums and solve the problem --permanently. Some day your life - or the life of your grandchild -will depend on those brakes.

In my shop, when someone brings in original drums and they measure - before turning - .120 or less I will not rebuild or even work on those worn out drums.

Roadster Rich · 09-21-2016, 08:24 AM

Yeah I guess I knew that. Back when I was doing the chassis at 14 years old I was visiting Fred Page at Page's Model A, about once a month. He told me to bring them up to him. He measured and suggested the banding and they did that themselves. I don't even know if they were then trued up, but usually Page's did a very high quality job. So I guess it is more money. Do I accomplish most with doing just the front wheels or is the major opinion that front and rear must be replaced?

Dick Steinkamp · 09-21-2016, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrys40

Rich,
I agree with H.L. that it is probably a centering issue. Get a centering gauge and get the issue corrected whatever it may be with the floater setup. if the tracks are worn they will have to be welded and repaired, or replaced if you choose.

Personally I'm not a fan of the brake floaters as I feel that if the original system is "restored" and "adjusted" properly that they work excellent. I believe that one of the "Teds" instructions calls for removing the long upper spring. In my opinion this can cause as many problems as it sounds they may solve with his setup. Not knocking the floater setup, but I think the system should float at the bottom and not have the shoes flopping on the top end.
Again, the original design works great. Restoring brakes are one of my specialties.

Larry Shepard

If the drums, spindles, etc. are "true", then even if the shoes were not centered the OP would not be reporting that "the wheel turns freely for 180 degrees then rubs for the other 180." The "high" shoe would be rubbing all the way around the drum in that case.

I agree that properly rebuilt, maintained and adjusted stock brakes work good. However, Flathead Ted's parts on the same properly rebuilt, maintained and adjusted brakes are noticeably better than stock. Give them a try. I'm confident that with your experience and expertise with Model A brakes that a system that you would do with Ted's kit would be amazing.

wmws · 09-21-2016, 11:54 AM

I agree with Dick Steinkamp's remarks. With Flat head Ted's set up the shoes self center. The tracks are actually not part of the system any more. Ted's setup along with cast iron drums will make for a great brake system. I would do the fronts first as that will make the most difference.

09-20-2016, 12:02 PM	#1
Roadster Rich Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia (Atlanta) Posts: 272	Centering Brakes? I have done a search of all the centering threads on the forum and there is good info available. I put Flathead Teds brake parts on my car almost two years ago. I did not center the front shoes top to bottom. As I adjust the brakes and move the adjuster in, I can definitely tell that I start to get uneven grabbing. Ie. the wheel turns freely for 180 degrees then rubs for the other 180. This occurs up until it grabs pretty tightly prior to locking. This has been with very little driving since the brake install. There is a slight pull to the left so I went back to adjusting with the 1/2 inch increments. Does this imply the front needs centering? If so I will get the measuring tool and go back to readjust.

09-20-2016, 12:17 PM	#2
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Centering Brakes? One humble opinion: If you ever build a house without a level, a carpenter's square, a measuring tape, and/or a plumb bob, the final results will always be noticeable by sensitive individuals. Measuring tools of any type are usually used by those who prefer precision. Brake shoe centering on a Model A front brake job is only about as important as putting on a parachute after one's plane ran out of fuel.

09-20-2016, 12:31 PM	#3
Roadster Rich Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia (Atlanta) Posts: 272	Re: Centering Brakes? I accept the criticism about precision. Finding lots of things that I have not done exactly right on my A for the years I have worked on it. But with that said, I have driven the car since I was 15 and it is still in remarkable shape. I think what that says is that Ford designed a car that will put up with hacks like me quite nicely. The question is mainly, The fact that as I tighten the wedge, I get uneven grab as the wheel is rotated, does this imply a centering issue or something else?

09-20-2016, 01:02 PM	#4
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: Centering Brakes? After you adjust the wedge step hard on the brake once and then spin the wheel. You might find that uneven grab has gone away.

09-20-2016, 01:17 PM	#5
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,111	Re: Centering Brakes? Make sure when you turn the adjusting wedge that you wiggle the wrench to ensure the brake shoe clevis tip is sitting between two wedge ridges. It's easy to turn the wedge and end up on top of a ridge, which will make the drum seem tighter against the brake shoes. Wiggle the wrench back forth when you think you have the adjustment set properly. Don't believe me? For grins and giggles, set the wedge and wiggle the wrench to where you think is right. Spin the wheel to get the feel for it. Then slightly turn the wrench one way or another. Not enough to click it, but just enough to exert pressure. Feel the drum begin to bind? That's how sensitive the seemingly simple adjuster design is. Your shoes will wear circular with enough use and religious tightening. The high spots will be worn off between adjustments and then you will get 100% brake shoe contact. That's the idea behind arching the shoes to drums during rebuilding. That is doing in advance what you would be doing by driving. Keep tightening the wedges often until you feel the shoes grabbing evenly and effectively. Marshall

09-20-2016, 01:18 PM	#6
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Centering Brakes? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Hi Rich, In my opinion, it is a centering issue which resembles either an eccentric circle turning outside a concentric circle ........... or a concentric circle turning outside of an eccentric circle, where the centers of both circles are not located at the same location. I really greatly admire your Model A Ford statement: "I think what that says is that Ford designed a car that will put up with hacks like me quite nicely." I bought my 1930 Coupe for $25.00 in 1958 which was as worn out as anyone could possibly imagine. I think if I would have entered it in a Judged Model A car show even as late as 1996, I could have been awarded the most worn out Model A of the Century ....... however, it always started, the differential sounded like a corn grinder between 30 and 35, no windshield wiper, no shocks, incorrect muffler, bur I never needed a tow.

09-20-2016, 01:31 PM	#7
sphanna Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Polk City, Iowa Posts: 526	Re: Centering Brakes? So far you have not received and answer to your question. Be patient and I believe you will. There are some very knowledgeable and helpful people on this site. Your question is legit but I do not think I have the expertise to confidently answer the question. I think the answer is not related to the centering of the shoe, but perhaps an out of round drum. Seems that if your shoe makes contact at any point it should make contact the same all the way around. If it was not centered then I think your shoes would wear more at one end than on the other. And actually improve contact as wear occurs. __________________ Steve Hanna, Polk City, IA

09-20-2016, 01:34 PM	#8
sphanna Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Polk City, Iowa Posts: 526	Re: Centering Brakes? Ok, see I told you that you would get help. looks like a couple of the guys got in as I was typing to you. You are getting help. __________________ Steve Hanna, Polk City, IA

09-20-2016, 01:43 PM	#10
sphanna Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Polk City, Iowa Posts: 526	Re: Centering Brakes? see posts 11 and 12 on the post by modelacarman on Brake Drums. that is what I was trying to say in my response __________________ Steve Hanna, Polk City, IA

09-20-2016, 03:14 PM	#12
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Centering Brakes? Aside from Ted's later set up, FWIW, as regards the original Ford design, the A-2051-F brake floater kit offered by Model A parts suppliers can help equalize pressure on original Model A Ford front brakes. "Secrets of Speed Magazine" published many years ago how to make and convert the original A-2051 wedge studs from scratch -- I made my own back then and they worked well.

09-20-2016, 03:30 PM	#13
Dereksfl Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Bradenton, Florida Posts: 4	Re: Centering Brakes? I have been thinking about installing Ted's Brake Kit. Does it really make a difference in stopping the A?

09-20-2016, 06:00 PM	#15
Dereksfl Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Bradenton, Florida Posts: 4	Re: Centering Brakes? Thanks for the info. After I install them I may need to rename my car. Her name is Whoa Nellie!!

09-21-2016, 04:15 AM	#16
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: Centering Brakes? Rich, I agree with H.L. that it is probably a centering issue. Get a centering gauge and get the issue corrected whatever it may be with the floater setup. if the tracks are worn they will have to be welded and repaired, or replaced if you choose. Personally I'm not a fan of the brake floaters as I feel that if the original system is "restored" and "adjusted" properly that they work excellent. I believe that one of the "Teds" instructions calls for removing the long upper spring. In my opinion this can cause as many problems as it sounds they may solve with his setup. Not knocking the floater setup, but I think the system should float at the bottom and not have the shoes flopping on the top end. Again, the original design works great. Restoring brakes are one of my specialties. Larry Shepard

09-21-2016, 06:34 AM	#18
Roadster Rich Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia (Atlanta) Posts: 272	Re: Centering Brakes? Thanks for the good advice. I decided to put her back on the stands and go back into the front brakes. I still have the original steel drums. They are banded, and the thickness was checked but I did not check for roundness. I will try to follow directions and do this right, this advice will help for sure. Maybe the next thing to spend on will be new drums.

09-21-2016, 07:13 AM	#19
kenparker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Van, Texas Posts: 1,122	Re: Centering Brakes? RR. Your info about the "original steel drums" and "they are banded" help diagonose what I think is the problem. Opinion. Original steel drums are probably thin that is less then .120 thick. If so they are easily warped by heat from operating the shoes or worse yet a dragging shoe from out of round. I have put on and taken off several sets of bands (btw have two sets for sale) and have never found a set perfectly round. Now my opinion. Your original drums with bands ae Out OF Round....and it only takes a couple thousands for the brake to pulsate as you apply the brakes. Then as the brakes heat up from applying they warp even more. Yes it is expensive. Get a set of Cast Iron barke drums and solve the problem --permanently. Some day your life - or the life of your grandchild -will depend on those brakes. In my shop, when someone brings in original drums and they measure - before turning - .120 or less I will not rebuild or even work on those worn out drums.

09-21-2016, 08:24 AM	#20
Roadster Rich Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia (Atlanta) Posts: 272	Re: Centering Brakes? Yeah I guess I knew that. Back when I was doing the chassis at 14 years old I was visiting Fred Page at Page's Model A, about once a month. He told me to bring them up to him. He measured and suggested the banding and they did that themselves. I don't even know if they were then trued up, but usually Page's did a very high quality job. So I guess it is more money. Do I accomplish most with doing just the front wheels or is the major opinion that front and rear must be replaced?

09-21-2016, 11:54 AM	#22
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: Centering Brakes? I agree with Dick Steinkamp's remarks. With Flat head Ted's set up the shoes self center. The tracks are actually not part of the system any more. Ted's setup along with cast iron drums will make for a great brake system. I would do the fronts first as that will make the most difference.