Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-19-2016, 03:44 PM   #1
TerryH
Senior Member
 
TerryH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fountain Valley, Calif.
Posts: 937
Default Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

I had recently developed a noise in the engine area of my Model A, and was taking it to Jim Nichols, our local Model A guru/mechanic, earlier today, when it suddenly got real noisy.....then just quit. Felt just like it had run out of gas. Called AAA and they had me over to Jim's very quickly. We quickly determined it was the timing gear, so in about 30 minutes he had it out. He had one of the figerglas laminated gears on hand, and has had very good luck with them, so it is going in right now, and I should get my car back by 4:00 pm this afternoon. That fiber gear was about 20 years old and had about 12,500 miles on it; thank goodness it did not happen out on the open road somewhere far away from home.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2275.jpg (36.2 KB, 206 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2279.jpg (43.9 KB, 232 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2274.jpg (41.8 KB, 254 views)

Last edited by TerryH; 10-19-2016 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Correction
TerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 04:29 PM   #2
700rpm
Senior Member
 
700rpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,892
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bits the dust

Timing gears (like everything else) sure have gotten expensive. Why, only 40 years ago you could get one for $10!
__________________
Ray Horton, Portland, OR


As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.
700rpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-19-2016, 04:33 PM   #3
denis4x4
Senior Member
 
denis4x4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Durango CO
Posts: 1,309
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bits the dust

Went with the bronze at $120. If 62 is the price, that's only a few bucks less than an aluminum gear. BTW, the bronze gear is very quiet.
__________________
No restorable Model A's were harmed in the building of this truck!
denis4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 04:36 PM   #4
BILL WILLIAMSON
Senior Member
 
BILL WILLIAMSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: FRESNO, CA
Posts: 12,560
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bits the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by 700rpm View Post
Timing gears (like everything else) sure have gotten expensive. Why, only 40 years ago you could get one for $10!
Ray, if you get broke, call the Dog @ 1-800-MONEY He likes you
Bill W.
__________________
"THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"
BILL WILLIAMSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 04:39 PM   #5
TinCup
Senior Member
 
TinCup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: OKC / Tonkawa, Ok.
Posts: 1,977
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bits the dust

Just remember over 5 million cars were produced with that fiber gear and ran millions of miles.
TinCup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 04:58 PM   #6
Mitch//pa
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 11,454
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
And when the gear comes apart the pieces end up in the oil pickup screen.
Mitch//pa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 05:05 PM   #7
C26Pinelake
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto.
Posts: 5,800
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bits the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by 700rpm View Post
Timing gears (like everything else) sure have gotten expensive. Why, only 40 years ago you could get one for $10!
yes and 40 years ago bread was 19 cents and gas was 40 cents a gallon. The average new car was $3500 dollars. You have to put everything into perspective. Wayne

P. S. Maybe you should have invested in timing gears!
C26Pinelake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 06:34 PM   #8
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,582
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch//pa View Post
And when the gear comes apart the pieces end up in the oil pickup screen.
Yep, that's the worst part.

I am using an aluminum gear on the engine I'm now working on.

I wonder if the bad gear isn't one of the cheaper macerated gears?
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 06:57 PM   #9
1930-fordor
Member
 
1930-fordor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: nc
Posts: 97
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Glad everything worked out for you and you got it fixed so quickly. It might be the boy scout in me, (always be prepared). So I always travel with an extra timing gear. I do believe in mr. Murphy, what can, go wrong will go wrong out on the road. I also carry an extra carburetor,distributor and a complete set of gaskets. If not for me, I might be able to help the ones I travel with.
1930-fordor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 07:09 PM   #10
tbirdtbird
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: inside your RAM
Posts: 3,134
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

folks need to re-read what Mitch said.

as far as the gears years ago; like everything else, they were made much better then; no comparison
__________________
'31 180A
tbirdtbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2016, 07:12 PM   #11
TerryH
Senior Member
 
TerryH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fountain Valley, Calif.
Posts: 937
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Thanks.....I did get my A back later this afternoon, and it runs great again. I bought this car, fully restored about 10 years ago, from a man in upstate New York. He had the engine re-built over 15 years ago, so I have no idea what type of fiber gear was installed in it then. I was very lucky to have it repaired so quickly.
TerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 05:51 AM   #12
1930-fordor
Member
 
1930-fordor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: nc
Posts: 97
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

For tbird and Mitch, if and when the timing gear comes apart, what is the next step? Can you drive any distance safely with the debris in the screen? And what steps are needed to clean screen?
1930-fordor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 08:09 AM   #13
Mitch//pa
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 11,454
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930-fordor View Post
For tbird and Mitch, if and when the timing gear comes apart, what is the next step? Can you drive any distance safely with the debris in the screen? And what steps are needed to clean screen?
Think of it as a restricted artery feeding your heart. Without a cleanout it will be a slow death. Drop the pan and pump, pop out the dipper tray, cleanout the pump intake screen and pan sump.
Mitch//pa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 08:58 AM   #14
C26Pinelake
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto.
Posts: 5,800
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by forever4 View Post
I would drop the main caps and chase the main bearing feed holes from the valve chamber with a pipe cleaner also.

The old macerated gears break into crumbs, but the modern macerated gears I saw turn into fluff. Much finer.
You sir is what is referred to as a perfectionist. You know motors! Wayne
C26Pinelake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 09:24 AM   #15
James Rogers
Senior Member
 
James Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Asheville,NC
Posts: 3,104
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by forever4 View Post
I would drop the main caps and chase the main bearing feed holes from the valve chamber with a pipe cleaner also.

The old macerated gears break into crumbs, but the modern macerated gears I saw turn into fluff. Much finer.
What good would dropping the caps do? The crank will still be covering the holes and nothing can be gained unless the crank is removed. This is why some of the advice here should be taken "with a grain of salt".
James Rogers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 10:24 AM   #16
d.j. moordigian
Senior Member
 
d.j. moordigian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fresno, Ca.
Posts: 3,636
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by forever4 View Post
I would drop the main caps and chase the main bearing feed holes from the valve chamber with a pipe cleaner also.

The old macerated gears break into crumbs, but the modern macerated gears I saw turn into fluff. Much finer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rogers View Post
What good would dropping the caps do? The crank will still be covering the holes and nothing can be gained unless the crank is removed. This is why some of the advice here should be taken "with a grain of salt".
Quote:
Originally Posted by forever4 View Post
Do you even know what a pipe cleaner is?
Feel free to do it whatever way you prefer.
Or not.
People should look at the photos of 'cleaned' blocks you have posted on your web site and consider that as well when making decisions.
Okay guy's,....I've built custom / racing engines for almost 50 years so I
know what they look like inside.

I know what Jame's is saying. I think Vince's idea would work with the valve
cover off and using air pressure (forced) down the feed pipe AND rotating
the crank to force the "fluff" out of the top side. It's not the best way with
the engine in the car..but it would be better than nothing. Vince,..is this kinda what you had in mind?
d.j. moordigian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 10:50 AM   #17
H. L. Chauvin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,179
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Not just Model A Ford related fiber timing gears ...... ??????

Had a "new" timing gear totally fail after about 10,000 miles (40) or so years ago.

It was in a "new" 1974 Pontiac.

Like anything else in Life ...... when it is your turn .... it is just your turn.

Installed a quiet aluminum gear in my A ..... how sad? ..... I will never get a second turn.
H. L. Chauvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 11:44 AM   #18
James Rogers
Senior Member
 
James Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Asheville,NC
Posts: 3,104
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Here's my take on this. If the clearances are correct, you are not going to force anything out of the mains even if you rotate the crank. .0015 is just too tight to get any "fluff" out. It is so close even oil has a hard time passing, is this not what keeps the rear leaks from happening. A pipe cleaner might work if you bend a L on the end and rotate it to snag the "fluff". Even this is no guarantee. You might think the tube is clean and it could still be clogged. To be frank, there is no way to be sure except to remove the crank and clean everything.

As far as my method of cleaning blocks and parts for rebuild Vince, till you call for a rebuilt engine and can prove I do substandard work, it's none of your business. I really don't appreciate you making that kind of snide remarks.

Like I said, take all information here "with a grain of salt" and beware of the consequences, including mine.
James Rogers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 12:48 PM   #19
H. L. Chauvin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,179
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Mr. Foster, thanks for #18 reply & correction ...... all I remember was ..... it was not metal.

Many who owned Model A's years ago will agree Ford's original A & B timing gears were very long lasting.

Then, just like my 1974 timing gear, somebody though of how to make a cheap, cheap version and the wild eyed GM board of directors & investors loved it ..... more money in their pockets ..... engineered & planned obsolescence.

Much "later" manufactured copies of many Model A parts were no different ...... cheap, cheap brings on smiles to everyone but the Model A owner who had a timing gear or any other kind of failure.

Choosing a long lasting canoe paddle today is not difficult ..... but when a cheap paddle breaks, all that happens is .... one is just up the creek without one ..... not too bad.
H. L. Chauvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 02:38 PM   #20
Mark in MT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Western MT
Posts: 218
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Here is my take on the fiber gear vs the aluminum one. The price difference is about $15 between the better fiber gear and the aluminum one. I have found that the aluminum ones are not noisy if mated with a new steel crank gear. ( the whine I believe is caused by differences in the pitch angle and roughness in gears.) Is the $30 cost of a new crank gear and the upgrade to the aluminum gear worth the risk of future failure? My customers and I say no. If you are throwing a motor together to go to the auction, I will send you a box of used timing gears that I usually throw away, cause they aren't worth the risk to me.
__________________
Mark in MT

Always looking for another opportunity to be wrong.
Mark in MT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 04:10 PM   #21
CarlG
Senior Member
 
CarlG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 9,109
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in MT View Post
Here is my take on the fiber gear vs the aluminum one. The price difference is about $15 between the better fiber gear and the aluminum one. I have found that the aluminum ones are not noisy if mated with a new steel crank gear. ( the whine I believe is caused by differences in the pitch angle and roughness in gears.) Is the $30 cost of a new crank gear and the upgrade to the aluminum gear worth the risk of future failure? My customers and I say no. If you are throwing a motor together to go to the auction, I will send you a box of used timing gears that I usually throw away, cause they aren't worth the risk to me.
My thoughts exactly. I went one step further and got the bronze matched set from Dan.
__________________
Alaskan A's
Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
Model A Ford Club of America
Model A Restorers Club
Antique Automobile Club of America
Mullins Owner's Club
CarlG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 05:16 PM   #22
forever4
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 116
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rogers View Post
Here's my take on this. If the clearances are correct, you are not going to force anything out of the mains even if you rotate the crank. .0015 is just too tight to get any "fluff" out. It is so close even oil has a hard time passing, is this not what keeps the rear leaks from happening. A pipe cleaner might work if you bend a L on the end and rotate it to snag the "fluff". Even this is no guarantee. You might think the tube is clean and it could still be clogged. To be frank, there is no way to be sure except to remove the crank and clean everything.

As far as my method of cleaning blocks and parts for rebuild Vince, till you call for a rebuilt engine and can prove I do substandard work, it's none of your business. I really don't appreciate you making that kind of snide remarks.

Like I said, take all information here "with a grain of salt" and beware of the consequences, including mine.
Maybe it is hard for some people to comprehend, but the clearing path is down through the oil feed tube, along the babbitt groove, and exit out the oil wells.
NOT forced through a 0.0015 gap between crank and bearing surfaces.

__________________
Try Ford Garage Search
forever4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-20-2016, 05:22 PM   #23
H. L. Chauvin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,179
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Hi Carl,

Like your very wise approach .... nothing like installing the best available ..... best Model A tires available ..... best Model A timing gear available.

Almost 99% of required maintenance & 99% of our wasted time & our wasted money usually happens when all of us try to cut corners.
H. L. Chauvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 06:40 PM   #24
CarlG
Senior Member
 
CarlG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 9,109
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin View Post
Hi Carl,

Like your very wise approach .... nothing like installing the best available ..... best Model A tires available ..... best Model A timing gear available.

Almost 99% of required maintenance & 99% of our wasted time & our wasted money usually happens when all of us try to cut corners.
Lessons learned the hard way, I'm afraid.
__________________
Alaskan A's
Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
Model A Ford Club of America
Model A Restorers Club
Antique Automobile Club of America
Mullins Owner's Club
CarlG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 07:54 PM   #25
C26Pinelake
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto.
Posts: 5,800
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin View Post
Hi Carl,

Like your very wise approach .... nothing like installing the best available ..... best Model A tires available ..... best Model A timing gear available.

Almost 99% of required maintenance & 99% of our wasted time & our wasted money usually happens when all of us try to cut corners.
Unfortunately Barners are famous for wanting best quality for the lowest price and then they complain when it does not happen and call it Chinese junk or blame the vendor! Quality does not come cheap. Wayne
C26Pinelake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2016, 12:32 PM   #26
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524
Posts: 1,457
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
In my opinion, James is right. Flushing oil pipes in to the bearings is NOT a good idea. There is more in there then just time gear, if any.

If the engine is as a normal A engine is, it will have some slug in the pipe, meaning metal particles. Flushing will do more harm then good.

They are easy to clean, the right way. Make an attachment to the shop vac hose, with a small hose just a little under 5/16.

Slide it in the oil tubes and suck all out that is in there, DO NOT FLUSH IN TO THE BEARING!

Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2016, 05:53 PM   #27
AL in NY
Senior Member
 
AL in NY's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern Upstate New York
Posts: 1,149
Default Re: Another fiber timing gear bites the dust

The engine was running when the timing gear disintegrated, so it's possible that some of the pieces entered the valve chamber through the large hole behind the timing gear. I would take off the valve cover and check to see if any pieces are laying on the floor of the valve chamber. If you see a lot of them, chances are some may have gone down the oil supply holes to the main bearings. Depending of the amount you see in the valve chamber, that would determine whether you pull the engine and chase the holes for chunks of the timing gear.
__________________
AL in NY
AL in NY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36 PM.