The Ford Barn

DaveBPT · 01-08-2018, 07:04 PM

Working on a 28 Pickup. Excellent engine. Died while driving. Checking all the basics. No spark at points. No power at coil with switch off. Good battery. Might be condenser. How do I remove condenser with distributor on engine or is it possible? What else should I check? Ignition switch?

Jacksonlll · 01-08-2018, 07:30 PM

Try your horn. Probably the fuse.

Patrick L. · 01-08-2018, 08:58 PM

Do you have a fuse at the starter ?
Do the lights work ?
Could be as simple as a poor battery connection.

Time to get a wiring diagram and test light then get your hands dirty. It shouldn't be difficult to fix.

burner31 · 01-09-2018, 02:23 AM

Here's a couple

Tom Wesenberg · 01-09-2018, 02:49 AM

Read #17 for how to change the condenser the quick and easy way.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...+tom+wesenberg

DaveBPT · 01-09-2018, 03:51 PM

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I'm a relative newbie to Model A's but not to cars in general. The fuse you mentioned is the one on the starter? If so already checked and replaced. The wiring to the lights and horn is not currently connected. I will be checking agian with the test light and will check the wiring under the distributor plate. Is the a way to remove condenser with distributor in the engine? It appears to have no access to the ground screw.

chap52 · 01-10-2018, 07:09 AM

See Tom's post #5 above.
Make sure those "not connected" wires are not grounding out somewhere. Without lights to indicate "switch on" there could be a short in that circuit.
Keep digging, you'll get it. Enjoy the adventure.

Patrick L. · 01-10-2018, 07:41 AM

I think it depends on which manifold is being used would depend on whether the condenser can be changed. But, it only takes a couple minutes to remove the distributor. The ignition timing doesn't have to re set in these monsters when reinstalling the distributor.

Benson · 01-10-2018, 09:05 AM

If engine has the armoured cable going from distributor which is bolted to one of the head bolts ... drain radiator BEFORE loosening the head nut so that coolant does not end up in oil pan.

DaveBPT · 01-10-2018, 04:52 PM

So after a couple of hours and replacing 2 condensers it still won't start. I have power all the way to the points at about 6 volts. The exhuast manifold has the heat exchanger on the top so I had to pull distributor to change condensers. Not too bad. Charged the battery and cranks well. rest point gap and retimed according to book. No visible spark with cranking. Any ideas?

wmws · 01-10-2018, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBPT

Working on a 28 Pickup. Excellent engine. Died while driving. Checking all the basics. No spark at points. No power at coil with switch off. Good battery. Might be condenser. How do I remove condenser with distributor on engine or is it possible? What else should I check? Ignition switch?

Do you have power at coil and points now. Is there no spark at plugs. How did you suddenly get power to points. I'm thinking this could be intermittent problem like a loose wire somewhere or the wire between the upper and lower plate in distributer.

flatford39 · 01-10-2018, 05:27 PM

Is there power at the coil??? If so the problem is in between there and the points.

Tom Wesenberg · 01-10-2018, 07:11 PM

You should have 6 volts all the time on one side of the coil, and with the key ON and engine cranking, the other side should go back and forth from voltage to ground, as the points open and close. Connect your analog volt meter and watch for the needle to bounce as the points open and close, or watch your test light flicker on and off.

glenn in camino · 01-10-2018, 08:30 PM

Do you have spark in the distributor?

Corley · 01-10-2018, 08:57 PM

Make sure the rotor is turning when cranking. Timing gear could have gone south.

DaveBPT · 01-10-2018, 09:14 PM

I have power at the coil and points now. Power at both sides of coil with switch off and drivers side with switch on. The rotor does turn. There is spark at the points when I set the timing with a light per Les Andrews but no spark when cranking. I pulled the points plate off to look and found a newer style wireless lower plate that has power to it. Tried a different rotor. Was able to get a spark through high voltage lead to ground with manually opening points.

Brentwood Bob · 01-10-2018, 09:31 PM

Are the points opening?
New points can close up as the wear pad wears down.

Tom Wesenberg · 01-11-2018, 02:29 AM

Start it with the hand crank. I had the same problem a few years ago, but after hand starting the engine and letting it run a few minutes, all was fine again.

BTW, those wireless lower plates are garbage, and that's where it would be if it came on my car.

chl · 01-11-2018, 07:03 AM

shut my pickup down after a short drive,would not start again no how. coasted it down a small incline,popped the clutch and it started immediately.has never happened again,knock on wood,this was 2years ago.

Marshall V. Daut · 01-11-2018, 07:43 AM

2x Tom's "ditch it!" suggestion. Go with a new lower plate that has the longer flexible wire.
Marshall

Jacksonlll · 01-11-2018, 07:53 AM

Don't trust the new points. Some can short out on the cam. The moving arm side structure can sometimes touch the cam before the points close.

DaveBPT · 01-14-2018, 08:06 AM

ok. It still won't start. I have tried 3 sets of points, 3 condensers, reset points and timing between each change. I can get hot point statically but nothing with the engine cranking. The lower plate is hot without upper plate in place. Last attempt produced hot points with the ignition ON with points closed or open. Checked for power in steps leading to upper plate install. As soon as distributor cam installed points hot all the time. It appears there is a short in the distributor. Lower plate?

katy · 01-14-2018, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Last attempt produced hot points with the ignition ON with points closed or open.

It sounds like your distributor is not grounded. Try running a temporary ground connection directly to the distributor.

SDJason · 01-14-2018, 10:05 AM

This reminds me quite a bit of when I had a similar problem almost five years ago.

It turned out to be that the moveable points block wasn't tightened down, and that was enough to cause an issue.

Around the same time, I also had nearly the same symptoms, and it turned out to be that the tab on the underside of the lower plate would sometimes touch the distributor body, causing a short - some judicious bending of it fixed that problem.

Screwing in the armored cable too far also sometimes causes a similar issue.

Tom Wesenberg · 01-14-2018, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katy

It sounds like your distributor is not grounded. Try running a temporary ground connection directly to the distributor.

Exactly, I've seen it before. There was enough rust on the head and cast iron distributor body to keep it from getting a good ground. A quick jumper wire, as Katy said, will give a good ground.

Bruce VA · 01-15-2018, 11:47 AM

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Check continuity with the points closed. New points often have a film on them to prevent corrosion in the box. With the points closed, you should see no resistance at all. If you do, that's the problem. Or just skip the troubleshooting and dress the points with brown paper or card stock. Not a file or sand paper!

DaveBPT · 01-16-2018, 05:27 PM

Got it going after repairing lower plate short. Initial was blown fuse and bad condenser. Thanks for the assist.

Dave

chap52 · 01-17-2018, 07:34 AM

Quite a chase. Glad you got it figured out. Thanks for sharing the adventure. Chap

JDupuis · 01-17-2018, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the update. Jeff

01-08-2018, 07:30 PM	#2
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: won't start problems Try your horn. Probably the fuse.

01-08-2018, 08:58 PM	#3
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: won't start problems Do you have a fuse at the starter ? Do the lights work ? Could be as simple as a poor battery connection. Time to get a wiring diagram and test light then get your hands dirty. It shouldn't be difficult to fix.

01-09-2018, 03:51 PM	#6
DaveBPT Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Pleasant Hill, Mo Posts: 64	Re: won't start problems Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I'm a relative newbie to Model A's but not to cars in general. The fuse you mentioned is the one on the starter? If so already checked and replaced. The wiring to the lights and horn is not currently connected. I will be checking agian with the test light and will check the wiring under the distributor plate. Is the a way to remove condenser with distributor in the engine? It appears to have no access to the ground screw.

01-10-2018, 07:09 AM	#7
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: won't start problems See Tom's post #5 above. Make sure those "not connected" wires are not grounding out somewhere. Without lights to indicate "switch on" there could be a short in that circuit. Keep digging, you'll get it. Enjoy the adventure.

01-10-2018, 07:41 AM	#8
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: won't start problems I think it depends on which manifold is being used would depend on whether the condenser can be changed. But, it only takes a couple minutes to remove the distributor. The ignition timing doesn't have to re set in these monsters when reinstalling the distributor.

01-08-2018, 07:04 PM	#1
DaveBPT Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Pleasant Hill, Mo Posts: 64	won't start problems Working on a 28 Pickup. Excellent engine. Died while driving. Checking all the basics. No spark at points. No power at coil with switch off. Good battery. Might be condenser. How do I remove condenser with distributor on engine or is it possible? What else should I check? Ignition switch?

01-09-2018, 02:49 AM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: won't start problems Read #17 for how to change the condenser the quick and easy way. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...+tom+wesenberg

01-10-2018, 09:05 AM	#9
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,594	Re: won't start problems If engine has the armoured cable going from distributor which is bolted to one of the head bolts ... drain radiator BEFORE loosening the head nut so that coolant does not end up in oil pan.

01-10-2018, 04:52 PM	#10
DaveBPT Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Pleasant Hill, Mo Posts: 64	Re: won't start problems So after a couple of hours and replacing 2 condensers it still won't start. I have power all the way to the points at about 6 volts. The exhuast manifold has the heat exchanger on the top so I had to pull distributor to change condensers. Not too bad. Charged the battery and cranks well. rest point gap and retimed according to book. No visible spark with cranking. Any ideas?

01-10-2018, 05:27 PM	#12
flatford39 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NE Illinois Posts: 499	Re: won't start problems Is there power at the coil??? If so the problem is in between there and the points.

01-10-2018, 07:11 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: won't start problems You should have 6 volts all the time on one side of the coil, and with the key ON and engine cranking, the other side should go back and forth from voltage to ground, as the points open and close. Connect your analog volt meter and watch for the needle to bounce as the points open and close, or watch your test light flicker on and off.

01-10-2018, 08:30 PM	#14
glenn in camino Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camino, CA. Posts: 3,086	Re: won't start problems Do you have spark in the distributor?

01-10-2018, 08:57 PM	#15
Corley Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Battle Ground WA Posts: 293	Re: won't start problems Make sure the rotor is turning when cranking. Timing gear could have gone south.

01-10-2018, 09:14 PM	#16
DaveBPT Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Pleasant Hill, Mo Posts: 64	Re: won't start problems I have power at the coil and points now. Power at both sides of coil with switch off and drivers side with switch on. The rotor does turn. There is spark at the points when I set the timing with a light per Les Andrews but no spark when cranking. I pulled the points plate off to look and found a newer style wireless lower plate that has power to it. Tried a different rotor. Was able to get a spark through high voltage lead to ground with manually opening points.

01-10-2018, 09:31 PM	#17
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,233	Re: won't start problems Are the points opening? New points can close up as the wear pad wears down.

01-11-2018, 02:29 AM	#18
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: won't start problems Start it with the hand crank. I had the same problem a few years ago, but after hand starting the engine and letting it run a few minutes, all was fine again. BTW, those wireless lower plates are garbage, and that's where it would be if it came on my car.

01-11-2018, 07:03 AM	#19
chl Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Nicholson, Pa. Posts: 84	Re: won't start problems shut my pickup down after a short drive,would not start again no how. coasted it down a small incline,popped the clutch and it started immediately.has never happened again,knock on wood,this was 2years ago.

01-11-2018, 07:43 AM	#20
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,109	Re: won't start problems 2x Tom's "ditch it!" suggestion. Go with a new lower plate that has the longer flexible wire. Marshall

01-11-2018, 07:53 AM	#21
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: won't start problems Don't trust the new points. Some can short out on the cam. The moving arm side structure can sometimes touch the cam before the points close.

01-14-2018, 08:06 AM	#22
DaveBPT Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Pleasant Hill, Mo Posts: 64	Re: won't start problems ok. It still won't start. I have tried 3 sets of points, 3 condensers, reset points and timing between each change. I can get hot point statically but nothing with the engine cranking. The lower plate is hot without upper plate in place. Last attempt produced hot points with the ignition ON with points closed or open. Checked for power in steps leading to upper plate install. As soon as distributor cam installed points hot all the time. It appears there is a short in the distributor. Lower plate?

01-14-2018, 10:05 AM	#24
SDJason Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 442	Re: won't start problems This reminds me quite a bit of when I had a similar problem almost five years ago. It turned out to be that the moveable points block wasn't tightened down, and that was enough to cause an issue. Around the same time, I also had nearly the same symptoms, and it turned out to be that the tab on the underside of the lower plate would sometimes touch the distributor body, causing a short - some judicious bending of it fixed that problem. Screwing in the armored cable too far also sometimes causes a similar issue. Last edited by SDJason; 01-14-2018 at 01:18 PM.

01-15-2018, 11:47 AM	#26
Bruce VA Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 11	Re: won't start problems Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Check continuity with the points closed. New points often have a film on them to prevent corrosion in the box. With the points closed, you should see no resistance at all. If you do, that's the problem. Or just skip the troubleshooting and dress the points with brown paper or card stock. Not a file or sand paper!

01-16-2018, 05:27 PM	#27
DaveBPT Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Pleasant Hill, Mo Posts: 64	Re: won't start problems Got it going after repairing lower plate short. Initial was blown fuse and bad condenser. Thanks for the assist. Dave

01-17-2018, 07:34 AM	#28
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: won't start problems Quite a chase. Glad you got it figured out. Thanks for sharing the adventure. Chap

01-17-2018, 09:50 AM	#29
JDupuis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Maryhill Ont Canada Posts: 834	Re: won't start problems Thanks for the update. Jeff __________________ Let's let pylons, be pylons!