Roadster upholstery

[springerpete]

The seats and door trim in my '29 40A are getting tired. I looked in the Judging Standards and got confused. Presently, my interior and rumble seat is tan/brown. On page 12-2 of the JS the chart for Rumble Seat lists Spanish Brown. But, on page 12-12 the interior Trim Scheme is listed as Blue-Gray. I must be making some kind of a reading error here. What is the correct color ? In books and magazines I have seen both tan and blue-grey interiors but the rumble seat and interior are the same. Thanks, Bill

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Bill, you are reading it correct. The Spanish Brown Colonial grain IS specified for all rumble seat vehicles. Where the confusion for you is the Blue-Gray Colonial material for the 1929 open car front seats actually has a Brown in it which color-coordinates correctly.. The issue is the reproduction material that you get from most suppliers is incorrect in texture and color. Unfortunately, it has been sold as such for so long many people accept it as authentic even though it is incorrect. Hope this helps.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Here are a few pictures I have taken of Doug Clayton's Roadster out in San Diego a few years ago. These pix were taken indoors so the lighting will be a tad off but I think it is decent enough for you to get the jest of what it was originally.

.

[wmpv29]

Brent,

Can you provide a source for the more authentic blue-gray interior material for a 29 roadster? The readily available material does not seem to jive with my Rose Beige scheme.

Thanks much.

Bill Malone
Hot Springs, AR
wmpv29

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by wmpv29

Brent,

Can you provide a source for the more authentic blue-gray interior material for a 29 roadster? The readily available material does not seem to jive with my Rose Beige scheme.

Thanks much.

Bill Malone
Hot Springs, AR
wmpv29

Sure, the material is ordered from Miami Rubber in a textured Brown, and then it must be dyed to resemble the correct coloring. It is a very laborious task that requires quite a bit of trial & error before the art is mastered. To my knowledge, there is not a commercially available material today that matches the original material.

[JTW]

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Look under bus seating for the antique brown that is made today, it is made by Enduratex, El Capitan #3102.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by JTW

Look under bus seating for the antique brown that is made today, it is made by Enduratex, El Capitan #3102.

Also, look at the weight of that material! It is VERY heavy and difficult to work with for the average restorer or upholstery shop.

[Brother Hesekiel]

I'm going through the JS as well, and am as confused as probably a few others about the various colors and materials specified. What material or upholstery kits do those order who aim for fine points judging? I was under the impression that all it took was one call to LeBaron Bonney, but it can't be that easy, or can it?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

I'm going through the JS as well, and am as confused as probably a few others about the various colors and materials specified. What material or upholstery kits do those order who aim for fine points judging? I was under the impression that all it took was one call to LeBaron Bonney, but it can't be that easy, or can it?

You are correct in that a cal the LB will NOT be 100% correct as materials are no longer made and thus no longer available. (I won't get into stitch length, pleats etc.)

Let me give you an example of something that cannot be economically made any more.

Years ago the Victoria association contracted with a woman to weave the cloth that were used in the curtains of the Victoria. Using a sample of the original cloth her group proceeded to make the curtains using the colors, pattern, edging just like the original.

Jump forward to now, I found a woman that was part of the original group and asked about another run. One of the thread colors used in the cloth is no longer available and cost to have a batch made was out of this world and there would have to be enough made to produce the cloth for hundreds of curtains in that one color alone, never mind that it was just one of many colors used in the curtains.

[Brother Hesekiel]

Interesting. So does what do the fine points judging guys do when it comes to the interior of their car? Do they all order materials and have them stitched by someone who is on top of the game, totally custom from head to toe?

I find it a bit strange that you can order the best "authentic" interior kit from LeBaron Bonnney and it's not authentic enough to pass judging . . .

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

Interesting. So does what do the fine points judging guys do when it comes to the interior of their car? Do they all order materials and have them stitched by someone who is on top of the game, totally custom from head to toe?

I find it a bit strange that you can order the best "authentic" interior kit from LeBaron Bonnney and it's not authentic enough to pass judging . . .

Where this becomes confusing is the term "authentic", ...and the definition of 'pass judging'. A L/B kit is NOT authentic when you compare it to most original fabrics and the stitching.

As far as "pass judging", that is a misleading statement because there really is not a 'Pass' or 'Fail' when we are judging upholstery in MARC/MAFCA competition. Therefore since the L/B (--or Cartouche, or Classtique) kit is not authentic in the details (materials used, stitching, cotton batting, etc.) it receives deductions in many areas from the total score. To have a Roadster completely upholstered (Top, Seats, Panels, Boot, Side-curtains, etc.) in correct material and with correct craftsmanship will generally set you back about $15k +/- for a turn-key job.

While there is a backlog of two, --to three years to have this service performed by the craftsman who specialize in this work, most hobbyists are unwilling to pay for that level of authenticity & craftsmanship.

I have included some judging sheets of a pick-up we restored a few years ago that had an authentic, professionally done interior & top. This shows the breakdown of how the points are awarded/deducted, and how the Judges viewed this vehicle. Ironically on the Top, the point deduction was more about the Team Captain's opinion of how something was originally done vs. the opinion of how the person who actually did this work felt it should have been.

[Great Lakes Greg]

I think Dave Lopez had his '29 Phaeton seats done by using the brown material sold today. He then painted the covers with gray paint and wiped them off before they dried for an authentic look.
The fine point upholstery guy, Mr. Sturim, may have done it?
Can somebody straighten this story out for me?

[Doug Clayton]

Brent -
I think you are making assumptions when it comes to the scoring of the Top on the Open Cab Pickup. First of all, the MOST important part of judging is the judges must be consistent in evaluating all of the vehicles at a meet. Secondly, a few points deducted from a score does not mean the area is poorly done. In this case, the Pickup received 16.9 out of 20 for the Top. I consider that to be a good score, but not perfect. Thirdly, you assumed the points deducted were a matter of opinion. I can tell you that most of the points were deducted for "General Appearance and Symmetry" which has nothing to do with anyone's opinion of how the top was put on the car. Those that have judged with me can tell you that I look closely at the symmetry of a vehicle whether it's Top, Upholstery, Sheet Metal or any other area. Points deducted in this area often are the result of sagging top bows, a straight (not bowed forward) front bow or the Top leaning to one side. In other words, points were most likely not deducted for the way the Top material was installed. Lastly, all judging is a team effort. As the team captain, it is my job to train and oversee the judges on the team. Generally, the team makes their recommendation for any deduction and I agree (mostly) or occasionally disagree if I think something was overlooked or treated too harshly. So this was a team effort!

My main concern in your posting is that you give the impression that judging scores are determined by one individual. In fact, the system at both MARC and MAFCA ensures that one individual cannot unduly influence the outcome.

It is a disservice to mislead those individuals having their vehicles evaluated and those thinking about having their vehicles evaluated. If it were my Pickup, I would look to see what the judge identified as a deduction rather than assume the judge had a different opinion!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Doug Clayton

Brent -
I think you are making assumptions when it comes to the scoring of the Top on the Open Cab Pickup. First of all, the MOST important part of judging is the judges must be consistent in evaluating all of the vehicles at a meet. Secondly, a few points deducted from a score does not mean the area is poorly done. In this case, the Pickup received 16.9 out of 20 for the Top. I consider that to be a good score, but not perfect. Thirdly, you assumed the points deducted were a matter of opinion. I can tell you that most of the points were deducted for "General Appearance and Symmetry" which has nothing to do with anyone's opinion of how the top was put on the car. Those that have judged with me can tell you that I look closely at the symmetry of a vehicle whether it's Top, Upholstery, Sheet Metal or any other area. Points deducted in this area often are the result of sagging top bows, a straight (not bowed forward) front bow or the Top leaning to one side. In other words, points were most likely not deducted for the way the Top material was installed. Lastly, all judging is a team effort. As the team captain, it is my job to train and oversee the judges on the team. Generally, the team makes their recommendation for any deduction and I agree (mostly) or occasionally disagree if I think something was overlooked or treated too harshly. So this was a team effort!

My main concern in your posting is that you give the impression that judging scores are determined by one individual. In fact, the system at both MARC and MAFCA ensures that one individual cannot unduly influence the outcome.

It is a disservice to mislead those individuals having their vehicles evaluated and those thinking about having their vehicles evaluated. If it were my Pickup, I would look to see what the judge identified as a deduction rather than assume the judge had a different opinion!

Actually Doug, I am not saying that at all. I do agree that it is a team effort. I am sorry if this offended you however my point was that even at this level you will have differing opinions between how it is to be done. Ironically, this is/was not addressed in the Judging Stds. as to exactly what is required with the binding, ...and the heavy deduction was noted by you & your team as poor workmanship without any explanation as to why such a deduction.

As a matter of fact, Bill Sturm did the interior AND the top on this truck, and it (-amongst several others) were a topic at the next JSC meeting following the French Lick meet. I had submitted photos asking exactly what was incorrect with the top binding and the workmanship as a whole to receive that score. That was the answer that was received after he AND the JSC members went into closed session to discuss this. As I stated above, Bill feels the way he sewed the top is authentically correct, -and the way you perceived it should be done differ.



Greg, with regard to the late Davey Lopes' Phaeton, it was Marco that did the interior, ...and the material actually came from Bill Sturm.

[Doug Clayton]

Brent -
I am not offended, just worried that we are creating a perception about judges that I feel is unjust. Please send me your photos and I will try to point out what the deductions were all about. I wish that the JSC had included me and our team in the discussion.

Greg -
The painted upholstery is really the story of the upholstery in my Roadster. It also provides some background about what we do when material is not available to the restorer. I was most fortunate to have Marco do the Top and interior on the car. The only materials available at that time (1984) was brown or blue colonial grain. The grain was not exactly the same as the original. Marco located some colonial grain with the older original style pattern but it was dark blue in color. He recommended that we get two vinyl dyes to match the original colors (the door cardboards and kick panels are NOS). We had Ditzler Vinyl Dye matched to the base brown color and the blue-gray color of the grain. I sprayed the brown coat first and it looked great. After curing for a day, I applied the blue-gray color. Well the two colors blended together and it turned purple! Off to the paint store to get 5 gallons of lacquer thinned to wash off all of the dye. Tried the same process, but with the blue-gray thinned out to settle into the grain. Just another horrible mess! Again, I washed the material with lacquer thinner. When it dried, I reapplied the brown base color and I decided to use a different tactic and had the Blue-Gray color mixed in latex house paint. It took Marco and I working together on a large surface plate to quickly smear on the house paint and then wipe off the excess to leave the Blue-gray deep in the grain. The paint dried so fast, we could only do sections big enough for one cushion at a time. In the end the seat cushions are almost a perfect color match to the Door and kick panels. This was all toped off by Marco's superb work. Compare the pictures that Brent kindly posted to archive photos of the interior and you will see they are the same.

The moral of this story is two-fold: 1) be inventive when no materials are available, 2) find out what the original material looks like (research beyond the Restoration Guidelines)!

[Great Lakes Greg]

Wow, that was more involved than I thought. Thanks for clearing up my fact twisted story.