Running on water alone could be risky.

[Old Henry]

Just had a water pump fail after running the summer on water alone without antifreeze and only Hy-per Lube Super Coolant which, although it has rust, corrosion and electrolysis protection, no pump lubricant. Don't know for sure whether there is any cause and effect here but according to this service bulletin by NAPA there well could be. http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/Ge...29853pdf?$PDF$ I know there is one other surfactant type coolant additive that says not to run without some anti-freeze in the water. I'll probably keep at least some anti-freeze in for summer in the future.

[Jack E/NJ]

Define fail. How did it fail? I thought the water pump bronze bearings were lubed with engine via oil gravity feed thru small holes in the block. As I recall, they're sealed on the shaft with a spring-loaded composition washer on the coolant side.

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Define fail. How did it fail?
Jack E/NJ

Started leaking real bad. It's under the pulley so don't know more than that. Assume the seal has gone bad. Seal is not lubricated by anything other than whatever is in the water. My pump is newer model with centrifugal fins, sealed ball bearings not oiled by engine oil as original bushing bearings were. No noise. Still running smooth and quiet. So, no problems with bearings. Just sprung a bad leak.

[Jack E/NJ]

Old Henry>>>Seal is not lubricated by anything other than whatever is in the water>>>

Hmmm. I'd be interested in what you find. When I rebuilt my pumps, I noticed that the new kit spring that holds the seal washer against the bearing was simply galvanized steel. I figured this spring definitely wasn't gonna hold up very long in hot coolant. So I re-used the original Ford spring as it looked as good as new, seeming to be made out of some sort of bronze wire. Perhaps the springs in your newer model pumps were galvanized steel that simply fell apart after they rusted out? Let us know what you find. Thanks.

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Old Henry>>>Seal is not lubricated by anything other than whatever is in the water>>>

Hmmm. I'd be interested in what you find. When I rebuilt my pumps, I noticed that the new kit spring that holds the seal washer against the bearing was simply galvanized steel. I figured this spring definitely wasn't gonna hold up very long in hot coolant. So I re-used the original Ford spring as it looked as good as new, seeming to be made out of some sort of bronze wire. Perhaps the springs in your newer model pumps were galvanized steel that simply fell apart after they rusted out? Let us know what you find. Thanks.

Jack E/NJ

I appreciate your question but am not sure that I'm going to be ambitious enough to dissect the pump after I've replaced it to learn more. We'll see.

[Barn Junk]

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Who manufactured or rebuilt your pump? As you know all parts/service are not created equal.

[Old Henry]

Pump was bought from C&G 6 years and 45,000 miles ago so it could have just reached its expected life span and have no manufacturing defects.

[SSsssteamer]

I bought our 1946 Ford Pick up in 1978 and I use it daily. The same water pumps are on it now as when I first bought it. I never touched them. As you see, the pick up is picture is taken on a frozen lake, we always use antifreeze year around. Photo is from about 1980. Original Ford parts are always better.

[Ross F-1]

The 8BA-style pumps appear to use a rubber lip seal in addition to rubber seals on the bearings themselves. Good pics here: http://www.flatheadv8.org/Waterpump/pump.htm

Most modern pumps use a mechanical seal with ceramic-faced wear surfaces, to deal with higher cooling system pressures. A good reason to stick with low pressure on these older engines.

[ford3]

you cant go wrong using anti freeze, it has anti rust properties, lubrication for the water pump, and anti freeze protection, has every thing your engine needs to be safe and have a long life, anti freeze has every thing plain water does not have

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford3

you cant go wrong using anti freeze,

The down side to anti-freeze and the reason I have gone a couple of summers without it is that it has less thermal capacity than water meaning that it does not transfer the heat from the block to the radiator as well as water. Here's a pretty good illustration from Hy-per Lube that shows that:



That's an 8° difference between water with anti-freeze in it and water by itself. Adding a surfactant to water with anti-freeze in it only lowers the temperature 6° whereas adding it to plain water lowers it 20°. That's why I went without anti-freeze last summer when I took my road trips to Canada, the top of Mt. Evans, and Hwy 50 across Nevada.

[ford3]

yes OldHenery, a little down side, but for just 8 degrees difference you get anti rust, water pump lube, and no worries about block freezing and cracking, same with the radiator, i will stay with anti freeze

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford3

yes OldHenery, a little down side, but for just 8 degrees difference you get anti rust, water pump lube, and no worries about block freezing and cracking, same with the radiator, i will stay with anti freeze

After I overheated a few times I got desperate to do anything that would lower the temperature just a few degrees that could be the difference between just real hot and boiling out the coolant.

I usually ran anti-freeze all year round before that but will go back to that now. Probably not the full 50/50 mix but at least a gallon or two out of my 5 gallon system.

Maintaining and adjusting these old cars is so often like a "Fiddler on the Roof" balancing between two competing needs and interests. Rarely is the full extreme on either end of a spectrum the correct balance.

[Marv]

I have always ran A 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze in Ohio winter or summer. I do not like repairing or replacing parts.

[Ross6860]

Originally Posted by ford3

you cant go wrong using anti freeze, it has anti rust properties, lubrication for the water pump, and anti freeze protection, has every thing your engine needs to be safe and have a long life, anti freeze has every thing plain water does not have

Water has a specific heat of 1

50/50 has a specific heat of .85 at 160° F That is a 15% cooling capacity de-rate and is not insignificant.

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The down side to anti-freeze and the reason I have gone a couple of summers without it is that it has less thermal capacity than water meaning that it does not transfer the heat from the block to the radiator as well as water. Here's a pretty good illustration from Hy-per Lube that shows that:



That's an 8° difference between water with anti-freeze in it and water by itself. Adding a surfactant to water with anti-freeze in it only lowers the temperature 6° whereas adding it to plain water lowers it 20°. That's why I went without anti-freeze last summer when I took my road trips to Canada, the top of Mt. Evans, and Hwy 50 across Nevada.

See my reply above. The actual temp is not as significant as the deceased ability to "move" the heat from the engine to the air.

You don't want the coolant to boil in the block and heads either running or after you shut down and it heat soaks the coolant.

Steam is a very poor thermal conductor.


As an aside. I remember years ago my grandfather adding Murphy's Oil Soap to his coolant to help lube the water pumps. Anyone else heard of this?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ross6860

Water has a specific heat of 1

50/50 has a specific heat of .85 at 160° F That is a 15% cooling capacity de-rate and is not insignificant.

I had figured 10% just from the difference between the temperature of the 50/50 mix with the surfactant versus plain water and surfactant.

Like you said, not an insignificant difference.

It was worth a try but maybe not if it ruined my water pump.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ross6860

I remember years ago my grandfather adding Murphy's Oil Soap to his coolant to help lube the water pumps. Anyone else heard of this?

Any kind of "soap" is a surfactant doing the same thing as Water-Wetter, Purple Ice, Super Coolant, etc. It's reducing the surface tension to facilitate increased conductivity of thermal energy into the coolant. I doubt that it does much "lubricating," especially if it turns out that's why my pump failed.

[rotorwrench]

A lot of the parts for rebuilding available today are of less quality than parts that were available just 20 years ago. The old carbon face seals that were made back in the 50s & 60s would keep sealing until the bearings were worn far enough to create shaft axis displacement. The old springs were copper plated to keep the corrosion to a minimum. Repro manufacturers make a replacement part but it just doesn't stand up to OEM and likely never will. I can remember replaceing a pump after 50K miles or so but then the other one would last even more so you just never know.

You can buy water soluable lubricant for your flatheads if you avoid the ethylene glycol mix. You can also use water wetter that suposedly increases the cooling efficiency but I've never tried the stuff.

[Rand]

From my experience I will only run my flatty with some sort of antifreeze both winter and summer. Its just not worth it to me to run it un protected. For me I'd rather run a little warmer then chance of cracking the block. Its amazing to me that frozen water is stronger the cast iron. I know this becase of putting only water in my rad after avnew engine rebuild to check for leaks to find a bunch of water on the garage floor the next morning. As I wrote about a few days ago in a different thread. Its antifreeze for me...and its great for unwanted neiborhood cats too
Randy

[Tinker]

Personally, with my little experience. Major things that have effected flathead temps that make a difference have been; timing, rad and block congestion, and a lean condition.

I run 50/50 mix.