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Old 05-22-2016, 08:06 PM   #1
GordonC
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Default Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

I need to get some advice from you folks more knowledgeable about flatheads than I am. I have done searches and didn't see anything that covered this.

I had an 8BA motor built by a person who builds race engines for a living. He supposedly knows flatheads but I have noticed a couple of things that have caused me concern. I got the motor back completely assembled and in theory ready to be installed and fired up. While checking the motor over I happened to look down the fuel pump stand hole and noticed there was no bushing for the fuel pump rod. While checking into that I also noticed there were no splash shields installed either. Ok, no biggie. Pull the intake, take a fuel rod bushing out of my scrap engine, fit it with a plug as I am using an electric fuel pump, and then install it. Also installed the missing splash shields. Ok, one last look at things before I reinstall the manifold and carb and I notice there isn't one single retainer on any of the valve guides. All of the crows feet weren't installed! Now I admit I don't know everything about a flathead but shouldn't they be there to prevent the guide from being pushed up to far? In checking the guides I can see some pressed in too far, a couple not enough, and some approximately where they should be had they had the retainer installed.

So my question is what is the correct way to fix this? Do I need to pull the heads off, disassemble the valve assembly, then tap the guides back down until I can install the retainers? Once they are in then push the guides up until the retainers are captured? Then reassemble the valve assemblies and reinstall the heads? Or is there some way to do this without tearing apart half of the work I paid him to do?

Advice appreciated as always.
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:27 PM   #2
Binx
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Wow! My remote guess is that he sealed the guides in place to grind the seats with a smaller pilot and forgot to install retainers. The retainers have to be installed. You can pull down or push them up with valve guide bar from the intake valley without removing the heads. First photo at this site...

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...al_tools-2.htm

Lonnie
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Well - the first thing to do is to contact your builder and find out what he "attempted" to fix the guides into their bores with? Did he do something like knurl them . . . locktite them, etc? Depending on what he did, the way to "fix" it can differ.

Typically they will not stay down with spring pressure on them - unless he did something. My concern is that he used some 'fix' method that you may not want to augment - you may need to pull all the guides and put a new set back in - with the necessary horse-shoe clips. This requires pulling the heads. You can most likely do this and NOT have to redo the valve-job . . . BUT . . . given what this guy has already done (or didn't do), I'd not be trusting his valve work if it was me. Just sayin . . .

If by chance they can be pulled down with a valve-bar, then you may get away with that - obviously installing the horse-shoe clips and making sure they pop back up to hold the clips in the clip receiver area.

Good luck - let us know what you hear from the builder and we can help you more with recommended 'fixes'.

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Old 05-22-2016, 10:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

With that many things apparently not getting done, or not done correctly, I would be very concerned about other things internal to that engine that could be wrong, and you can't see them by just having the intake manifold off..
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Old 05-23-2016, 06:19 AM   #5
Walt Dupont--Me.
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

I wouldn't trust anything in that engine. Everdently that engine builder don't know what he's doing. I swapped a Chevy for a built flathead one time, didn't trust it so stripped it, glad i did, it did'nt have the right front main cap, I had to line bore it. If you cain't do it yourself you better find that can. Walt
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Old 05-23-2016, 05:08 PM   #6
GordonC
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

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Guys thanks for the suggestions. This builder and I are going to go over the motor tomorrow evening to see what should be done. I do know that the guides were some Speedway items I had purchased back in 2003. They had a problem with a vendor at the time and the guides were oversized. He didn't want to wait for new ones to be sent to me on Speedways dime (good on them!) so he turned them down and pressed them into the block. At least I believe that is what he did. He runs a machine shop that specializes in high performance engines, its just that I don't think he sees many flatheads. I provided a lot of documentation so there shouldn't have been any gray areas, unfortunately there was.
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Old 05-23-2016, 06:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Like Bored & Stroked advised, "If by chance they can be pulled down with a valve-bar, then you may get away with that - obviously installing the horse-shoe clips and making sure they pop back up to hold the clips in the clip receiver area."
Once you get them started into the groove you can lightly tap on the clip and it will slip into the recess where it needs to end up. Much easier with the proper pry tool.
Keep us posted.
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Old 05-23-2016, 07:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Some people just think we are the 'public' and don't know anything.... and they are 'professional engine builders' who build 'race engines' and therefore they don't even listen to us. I had a 59ab done twenty years ago and I researched the whole process very thoroughly (from books) but they totally botched the floating rod bearings and it never had oil pressure. I pulled it and took another block to a different place. Well two years ago I fixed the first one right. Thanks to advice from those who actually REALLY know these engines like for instance Ol Ron and Walt Dupont. Ten years ago I thought the internet was for yuppies and wannabes but now I have learned that is truly an avenue to connect with folks that have 'lived it'. Hope you work all this out, and best of luck with your flathead.
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Sounds like he may have turned the OD down and his plan was to 'press fit' them into the block. I only hope he didn't hone the guide bores out in the block. He was thinking like a modern OHV engine - where the guides are pressed in. The only problem is that he didn't think it through . . . as on an OHV, the guide doesn't hold back the spring pressure. On our flatheads - the spring rests right against the guide and is effectively trying to push it back out the top of the block . . . I would not trust his press fit approach without the horse-shoe clips. Now - if the guides are nice and tight, then the valve seats should be spot on - so that part is good. Maybe you can just get the horseshoe clips installed - and it may be good to go (other than the whole 'trust' issue).

The part that is bad is that it will be hell getting them out of there using the "normal" valve bar technique - may have to disassemble the valves in the valley area to pull the valve out the top, remove the springs and retainers out the bottom - then drive the guide down into the valley area. Kind of pain, but certainly doable (just glad I'm not the 'next guy').
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Old 05-25-2016, 07:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Thanks guys. Many of you are saying what I was thinking and feeling.

He claims to have talked with two knowledgeable flathead guys who told him that Speedways guides could be press fitted into the block without the clips. Apparently he feels the fit is tight enough that it shouldn't need the clips, which he would know better about that than I, BUT, if what he says is correct then shouldn't ALL of the guides have been pressed in to the same depth? They are not and I can see with the naked eye variations in the amount showing in the lifter valley under the valve spring.

I am beginning to think the best thing to do is to pull the heads, remove the valves and springs, drive the guides down some, put the clips on and push the guide up to capture it, and then reassemble everything. Then run through setting the valves again. It probably is the only way I can have any confidence in this motor. What a total nightmare this whole building a flathead for my 31 roadster has been! I can almost see why folks just buy crate engines!
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Old 05-25-2016, 07:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

The spring installed heights will be all over the map as the guide has to be in the same place on each installation to get the installed height baseline established correct.Ask the builder what your installed heights are and the spring pressures.Another giveaway will be look and see what vsi shims he installed. Report back with the horror story.

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Old 05-25-2016, 07:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonC View Post
Thanks guys. Many of you are saying what I was thinking and feeling.

He claims to have talked with two knowledgeable flathead guys who told him that Speedways guides could be press fitted into the block without the clips. Apparently he feels the fit is tight enough that it shouldn't need the clips, which he would know better about that than I, BUT, if what he says is correct then shouldn't ALL of the guides have been pressed in to the same depth? They are not and I can see with the naked eye variations in the amount showing in the lifter valley under the valve spring.

I am beginning to think the best thing to do is to pull the heads, remove the valves and springs, drive the guides down some, put the clips on and push the guide up to capture it, and then reassemble everything. Then run through setting the valves again. It probably is the only way I can have any confidence in this motor. What a total nightmare this whole building a flathead for my 31 roadster has been! I can almost see why folks just buy crate engines!
Knowledgeable flathead guys? I don't think so.
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Old 05-25-2016, 07:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

That whole motor should come apart and be checked and put back together by someone who knows what they are doing
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
That whole motor should come apart and be checked and put back together by someone who knows what they are doing
What he said...I just went through a similar experience and had to take the same action.
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Now that you've talked to him and he shared his 'logic' (which is completely off base and shows he knows nothing about flatheads). His logic on the press-in guides is all wrong - and he even did a poor job at that - as the spring heights/pressures are all over the place. Even if he knew what to do, he got into a big hurry and made bad decisions - he should have just stopped and acquired the right guides (would have taken a day from Speedway).

You should be having the whole engine taken apart, inspected, fixed and re-assembled by somebody who knows what he is doing with flatheads and has the equipment to do the job.

I wouldn't trust anything on this engine - so why take chances after all the money you've spent. If you need anything more, feel free to PM me - be happy to talk to you.
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:38 AM   #16
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Press in guides have to have a shoulder to seat against. If they don't, then they aren't designed correctly. Some folks have to make more work for themselves than necessary and not all wrenches out there have good common sense. The tried and true one piece guides for the late flathead V8 aren't broken and the only fix they might need is a bit of silicon sealer to aid in sealing them. It is a lot easier to get them back out too. The valves assemblies were meant to go in easy. They were pre-assembled on the bench then installed in the block. Pull them down with the proper bar and a clip installed to seat. I don't see anything broken with that design.
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Might want to check the bottom end as well. What pistons and rings did he uz and what's clearances. This guy was in a learning process with no teacher, Good luck.
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Wow. Agree with all the post. I would trust a thing done to this engine. Let me guess, he charged you "race engine building" prices for the work he did as well?

Please let us know what shop this was to avoid anyone from having to go through your headache in the future.
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

Flathead Ford V8s were pretty simple, even by earlier standards but they are way different that what the new kids on the block generally work on. It pays to look for experienced guys to insure the job gets done right. They're simple enough that the new ones could pick up the skills if they do the research and ask important questions of the older guys. Like Ron mentioned, he needed a mentor and go the distance. They might even get good at it if they try. We need more flatty mechanics. We aren't getting any younger.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Flathead V8 Valve Guie Help.

I have a young fellow working with me on my projects, which will include the loudon engine. He's a wounded Vet. Of 70 so he'll be around for a while. we built a 294 a feew years back that he drives almost every day. Good parts make a differance, but you have to know what they are.
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