How much grease in the clamshell?

[31 Woody]

Lubing the chassis, the clamshell is the concern. Everything else grease squeezes out somewhere when full. I think the clamshell does the same, but something tell me it squeezes into the transmission through the rear bearing. Is there a way to decide how much grease to pump in there?

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

Remove speedometer drive gear and fill clam shell until it comes out there.

Replace speedometer drive gear and wipe off the mess

[31 Woody]

Thanks Richard!

[redmodelt]

I do the same as Richard.

[Bill G]

I was going to say the same..

[WHN]

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I have had to put in up to one full tube of John Deere Cornhead Grease. I guess it all depends on how long it has been since the last time it was serviced.

Be careful with the nuts on speedo drive. If they haven’t been loosened in a long time, use a lot of penetrating oil. They can break. Enjoy.

[Werner]

Hello, what is "clamshell" please? Which is called like the "Universal Joint" in the Lubrication Chart?

Thanks in advance!

[wmws]

If you have a Mitchell overdrive as I do then how do you check for grease in the universal. The Speedo connection is in the overdrive box.

[31 Woody]

wmws, good question, that would be relevant for me too! I hadn’t considered that and Richard should know because he helped me put the Mitchell in my car.

[HD Rider]

Originally Posted by Werner

Hello, what is "clamshell" please? Which is called like the "Universal Joint" in the Lubrication Chart?

Thanks in advance!

The universal joint is exactly what they're talking about.

[redmodelt]

The clam shell are the two pieces that bolt on and clamp the driveshaft to the back of the transmission.

[katy]

The 2 pieces on the right:

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

Yes, I answered for stock setup only. Maybe someone could call Mitchell and see if they have an answer to that. It looks like a hole with a plug in the torque tube directly under and behind the "bell" enclosing the universal joint would do it.

Look at 31 Woodie's avitar closely. Ever seen wood wheels on a Model A woodie before?

I think we hand packed the universal cavity before installing your overdrive. Better check it :-)

[Werner]

Thank you for that informations. Now I know, what was meant. I checked that immediately. Very well too the hint from WHN ...

I have had to put in up to one full tube of John Deere Cornhead Grease. I guess it all depends on how long it has been since the last time it was serviced.

... because I had to fill in about 1 pint of grease until it became visible in the hole of the speedometer drive.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I have NO PROBLEM, sold both cars---LOL------ How much grease is required to help a CLAM open?
Bill Walking

[31 Woody]

Richard, I pumped quite a bit in it on Saturday before thinking—hey, where is all this going and could that be a potential problem? I decided to stop pumping grease in and ask the question. I think I pumped in quite a bit, but not overly concerned by how much. I did do a test drive and shifted the three speed, but didn’t think to try the Mitchell. Given the Mitchell has gear oil I would guess it has a seal in the front input and rear output.

When we put the Mitchell in we did hand pack the u-joint, but I was sure there were voids and wasn’t aware there was a zerk fitting there to fill it up, or this question would have come up sooner. I will try and call Mitchell. I will report back if/when I get an answer.

Thanks everyone!

[GerryAllen]

I don't if this is an old wifes tale or not, was told this at one of our Model A meetings.. Someone told me a fellow kept pumping grease after grease in his universal. Couldn't figure where it was going, decided enough was enough, got into his car for a spin. Grease was oozing out of his speedometer, what can I say. Is it true or not don't know but makes for a good story.
Gerry Birch Bay WA

[31 Woody]

I contacted Mitchell today, sorry for the delay in doing so. Anyway, they do not have a precise answer on this. Here is their reply:
That is a very good question. Not one with a firm answer sorry to say. A reasonable amount. You are correct too much and it could either go into the transmission or push by the bearing and head down the tube. I would say give it about the same amount of grease you did prior to installing the overdrive. Wish I could be more helpful.

[Joe K]

It has not been mentioned, but grease is only REQUIRED on the early "ring" type universal joint.

The later "cross & yoke" style popularized by Dana/Spicer are made with sealed needle bearings - which are pre-lubricated. Some of the crosses DO include a grease zerk which is a one-time fill until you see it squirt from the needle seals, but no more - much like any zerk lubricated bearing.

In many modern cars and trucks these universals are fully exposed to the weather and soldier on in their function for a good 100K miles. One wonders how long they would last in an enclosed space such as the universal clamshell?

I usually put only enough grease into the clamshell to "coat" the yokes/cross to prevent rust and allow the clamshell free movement. Also the splines need a dab of grease on assembly as there is the possibility of a sliding fit here.

If you own the earlier "ring" type universal - more is better - up to a point where the universal slings it off. I might give that one a cup or so of grease.

Joe K

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Joe K

It has not been mentioned, but grease is only REQUIRED on the early "ring" type universal joint.

The later "cross & yoke" style popularized by Dana/Spicer are made with sealed needle bearings - which are pre-lubricated. Some of the crosses DO include a grease zerk which is a one-time fill until you see it squirt from the needle seals, but no more - much like any zerk lubricated bearing.

In many modern cars and trucks these universals are fully exposed to the weather and soldier on in their function for a good 100K miles. One wonders how long they would last in an enclosed space such as the universal clamshell?

I usually put only enough grease into the clamshell to "coat" the yokes/cross to prevent rust and allow the clamshell free movement. Also the splines need a dab of grease on assembly as there is the possibility of a sliding fit here.

If you own the earlier "ring" type universal - more is better - up to a point where the universal slings it off. I might give that one a cup or so of grease.

Joe K

Not knowing enough to know exactly what you said in the post, could someone post labeled pictures of the assembly as viewed from under the car?

[Joe K]

Ring type universal. Used on most pre-1930 Model A. No seals. Designed to be used inside the "clamshells" (actually a semi-spherical joint which joins the back of the transmission to the axle.)



The "modern" Dana-Spicer type yoke & cross universal. As used in 1930ish and beyond Fords.



Here is an image of the Dana-Spicer unit showing the later universal "broke down" into non-yoke parts. Each of the prongs of the cross is covered by a sealed one-sided needle bearing. The unit is assembled to the yokes by use of the "snaprings" in the bag.



If you were to buy a replacement Model A Universal today - this is what you would get. Lubricated for the life of the universal and sealed against the entrance of contamination.

Some D-S production may include a zerk to grease the needle bearings. The zerk would be inaccessible in the clamshells.



Joe K

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Thanks for the info, but is there a way to tell what you have if it is installed and everything mounted in the car? If yes, pictures?

[Joe K]

Without disassembly of the clamshell halves and a bit of a "pull-back" to the rear axle - probably not.

The inner "half sphere" (mounts to the rear bearing retainer of the transmission and is normally covered by the half-shells) has a couple of holes which I surmise one might be able to use a strong flashlight and look into to see the universal - but I think the matching half sphere of the torque tube covers the holes.

A required "pull back" of the axle should be just enough to pull the two mating half spheres to the rear and see the universal within. With the brake rods dis-attached, this might be possible without undoing the axle from the frame or spring - there is a "skosh" of play here in the free motion of the spring/shackles.


Where the pix says "Oil Enclosure," you'll be looking in just below the small "e."

All you need is about 1" of clear view - and I think the length of the rear spline on the universal will allow the axle, torque tube, and drive shaft to move rear-ward without everything coming apart and the torque tube dropping to the floor.

OBTW, the pix is from Victor Page's "Model A Ford" book which was printed first early in 1928, and shows the "ring style" universal in cross section.

Joe K

[30 Closed Cab PU]

If you do not know which type you have and it is the needle type, ok to grease the needle type same method as the ring type ("more is better")?

Originally Posted by Joe K

It has not been mentioned, but grease is only REQUIRED on the early "ring" type universal joint.

The later "cross & yoke" style popularized by Dana/Spicer are made with sealed needle bearings - which are pre-lubricated. Some of the crosses DO include a grease zerk which is a one-time fill until you see it squirt from the needle seals, but no more - much like any zerk lubricated bearing.

In many modern cars and trucks these universals are fully exposed to the weather and soldier on in their function for a good 100K miles. One wonders how long they would last in an enclosed space such as the universal clamshell?

I usually put only enough grease into the clamshell to "coat" the yokes/cross to prevent rust and allow the clamshell free movement. Also the splines need a dab of grease on assembly as there is the possibility of a sliding fit here.

If you own the earlier "ring" type universal - more is better - up to a point where the universal slings it off. I might give that one a cup or so of grease.

Joe K

[denniskliesen]

I’d sure like to see that Dana Spicer get installed on the yokes of a Model A. It’s well known the riveted original ujoint will not last. The ujoint with the retainer rings last much longer with adequate lubrication. I coat the spherical surfaces of the torque tube, center plate and clamshell halves and the remainder of a grease tube in and around the ujoint with a tube of grease. Depending on how much grease squeezes out of the clamshell, I give the grease fitting on the bottom front piece of the clamshell about 20 pumps every 500 miles when I grease the rest of the chassis.

[duke36]

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Originally Posted by WHN

I have had to put in up to one full tube of John Deere Cornhead Grease. I guess it all depends on how long it has been since the last time it was serviced.

Be careful with the nuts on speedo drive. If they haven’t been loosened in a long time, use a lot of penetrating oil. They can break. Enjoy.

Ditto to the bolts on the speedo drive cover; however, after filling with John Deere Cornhead, the stuff appeared to liquify enough to leak out the clamshell seals. We cleaned it out and reverted back to chassis grease. Perhaps others can explain their experience with the Cornead. It has been OK in the steering gear which isn't under constant turning motion as with the universal.

[Werner]

Hello to each other, I can tell now something about filling quantity with grease from practice:

Here in the forum I have read that so much grease should be pressed in the universal joint until it swells out of the speedometer drive out. I did that about 40 miles ago.

Today I controlled the gear oil with the dipstick, installed 2 days ago. And now find a lot of grease mixed with the gear oil!

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

If you do not know which type you have and it is the needle type, ok to grease the needle type same method as the ring type ("more is better")?

Only downside I can think of is the tendency for grease to liquefy by the heat and motion of mechanical action: centrifugal force will put it at the point most likely to find its way past the cork seal. Others have mentioned a tendency to "issue forth."

And yes there would be a small power loss particularly until the grease has been relocated.

But the Torque Tube/Universal worked for Ford in both the Model T and the Model A, and with improvements up to the end of the torque tube era.

Given the supply of Dana-Spicer U-joints that are out there (in another thread I have mentioned some "variability" of supply - at least from D-S) and the problems that Ford got past by adopting the Cross & Yoke design, if you're apart and see you have the ring style, don't use it. Do something better.

If not apart, just wait until you are - for whatever reason.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Joe K

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

If you do not know which type you have and it is the needle type, ok to grease the needle type same method as the ring type ("more is better")?

I have never seen a sealed needle type Spicer ujoint in a Model A. If they make such a thing I’d like to see pictures of it secured to the output shaft of the transmission as well the yoke to the driveshaft. Either way you need to keep the clam shell lubricated with grease. There was originally a felt packing on the rear shell halves l, now replaced with cork. Do as Richard in Anaheim recommends. Remove speedometer gear and pump grease in fitting until grease appears.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Post 28 and 29 have answered my concern. I missed or was unaware of this info if in the earlier posts, that the needle type was quickly replaced at the beginning production of A's. Since My truck is a late 30, I have the ring sytle/cross and yoke design.


Thanks for the info.

[denniskliesen]

This is what a replacement universal joint for a Model A looks like. There are no needle bearings. This is a sleeve type bearing.

[Drive Shaft Dave]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

I have never seen a sealed needle type Spicer ujoint in a Model A. If they make such a thing I’d like to see pictures of it secured to the output shaft of the transmission as well the yoke to the driveshaft. Either way you need to keep the clam shell lubricated with grease. There was originally a felt packing on the rear shell halves l, now replaced with cork. Do as Richard in Anaheim recommends. Remove speedometer gear and pump grease in fitting until grease appears.

I just remove one of the bolts.

[Werner]

Back to the grease quantity:

So unhealthy looks the mush! Gearbox"oil"contaminated with the grease from the universal shell.