The Ford Barn

khschs · 11-03-2018, 09:27 AM

Are nutserts adequate to bolt the body(32cabriolet) to the frame(32 geni boxed)?
If so what size and type?
Keith

51 MERC-CT · 11-03-2018, 10:18 AM

3/8" dia is probably what the original bolts were and would be adequate.
Then there's finding a way to set the steel nutserts.

rotorwrench · 11-03-2018, 10:51 AM

Aren't those afterthoughts great. A thoroughly boxed frame can have small access holes cut into it to use nuts or captive nuts. If you use threaded inserts, get the best ones you can. Some are not keyed or knurled and can spin free after they get crusty. Hanson and other suppliers carry the plated steel types but you will need the puller to set them. Keenserts are another possibility but they are threaded and may need more thickness than is available. Another thought would be welding in threaded bushings.

TJ · 11-03-2018, 11:19 AM

I would put access holes in the frame and use regular nuts and bolts. I would not trust nutserts to mount a body.

TomT/Williamsburg · 11-03-2018, 11:25 AM

Check out nutserts for the racing world. You need a special tool but after that, they are very good and strong. I used them for the floor in my present 32 5-window project ...

JSeery · 11-03-2018, 12:40 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The nutserts should be as strong or stronger than the bolt you use in them, can not get much better than that.

Kube · 11-03-2018, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

Check out nutserts for the racing world. You need a special tool but after that, they are very good and strong. I used them for the floor in my present 32 5-window project ...

I fully agree.

Paul Bennett · 11-03-2018, 09:43 PM

I use Marson nutserts for accessories but wouldn't use them for any heavy duty fastening. Nutserts are threaded pop-rivets.

Tinker · 11-03-2018, 09:51 PM

This to me is interesting. Friction welding has been around a long time. Plastic packaging uses it a ton. Even Henry. Not real practical in all applications.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRimtRpcf

5851a · 11-04-2018, 08:29 AM

FRAME BRACKET INSERT INSTALLATION
On most cars equipped with power-assisted steering (Mustangs, Falcons, Fairlanes, Mavericks and their Mercury counterparts), the Frame Mount Bracket is secured to the drivers side frame rail by three bolts; one bolt & nut assembly that goes horizontally through the bracket and rail, and two bolts that run vertically through the bracket and into inserts mounted in the frame rail.
Most cars have the holes and extra metal in the rails for these inserts from the factory - in case power steering is installed. Only cars planned for power steering installation have the inserts installed in the rails. For cars not so equipped, collapsable inserts must be installed.
As with most things, there is a proper way to install these inserts. Simply setting them in place and tightening a bolt down in them will usually result in an inadequately crushed insert or a bolt broken off in the frame. The directions shown here are taken from Ford dealer-installed power steering instructions sheets and show the way Ford intended them to be installed.
Parts Required:
(2) Frame Inserts; Ford Part No. 000000-S
(1) Hex Head Bolt - Grade 8; 3/8" x 16 x 1 1/2"
(1) Hex Nut; 3/8" x 16
(1) Washer - Thick large diameter; 3/8" hole
1) Locate insert holes in frame rail. There should be a second layer of metal just inside the rail with a hex-shaped hole on it. This hex-shaped hole is to keep the insert from turning as it is tightened down. If your rail does not have this hex-shaped hole, you may have to tack-weld the insert in place to prevent it from turning.
2) Using the diagram to the left as a guide, thread Nut onto Bolt until about 1/8"-3/16" from head of bolt. Apply Lubriplate or similar lubricant to on side of the Washer and install this side of the Washer onto the Bolt and against the Nut. Thread Insert onto Bolt until snug against the Washer. Make sure that some of the Bolt is extending out of the other end of the Insert.
3) Install this assembly into the hex hole in the frame rail, making certain that the Insert is flush with the bottom surface of the frame.
4) Using the proper tools, hold the Bolt stationary and tighten the Nut to collapse the Insert. It will take a minmum of three (3) complete turns of the Nut to collapse the Insert.
5) Remove Bolt and check tightness of the Insert in the frame rail. It should be tightly fastened in place. If Insert is still not tight in frame, re-install Bolt and tighten Nut until Insert is secure in frame.
Ford recommended disgarding the Bolt used for installing the Inserts and not using them to mount the frame bracket in place. This was because the act of installing the two inserts put a great deal of stress on the Bolt and could possibly weaken it, making it unsuitable for bracket retention. Install the bracket with the correct original bolts or use new ones.
Ford also recommended tack-welding the edge of the Insert to the frame rail in three places after installation. This was not done on factory-installed inserts, but Ford probably used a more secure attachment method on these. If possible, tack-welding the inserts in place is a good idea for extra strength and durability.
When installing the Frame Bracket to the frame rail, Ford recommended installing and torquing the horizontal bolt through the frame and bracket before installing the two lower bolts. Torque settings on all three mounting bolts is 35-43 ft/lbs.

5851a · 11-04-2018, 08:31 AM

Bad part of this is the holes a hex shaped.

Krylon32 · 11-04-2018, 09:30 AM

Been in the chassis business for almost 40 years and have only used nutserts in an emergency. If I forgot to weld nuts under a hole I usually use welded bungs in the holes I missed although the guys I buy my rails from rarely forget. I've had even the really good nutserts turn with old age. I always use anti-seize on the body and fender bolts.

34PKUP · 11-04-2018, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5851a

FRAME BRACKET INSERT INSTALLATION

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5851a

Bad part of this is the holes a hex shaped.

Trying to figure out what , if anything, all of this has to do with mounting a '32 body??

Merc Cruzer · 11-05-2018, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5851a

Bad part of this is the holes a hex shaped.

Not sure if you are saying the holes in the frame are hex hexed, but if you are.
The Serts I used to mount the PS plate on my 53' are hex shaped, to match the holes. No issue with slippage. I know they sell round ones too. If you are drilling holes, you can file them into hex shaped holes to mount the serts. More work, but reduces the issue of slippage if you don't have a welder.

itslow · 11-05-2018, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Bennett

I use Marson nutserts for accessories but wouldn't use them for any heavy duty fastening. Nutserts are threaded pop-rivets.

That's a pretty generalized statement.

There are rivet nuts available that are designed for "heavy-duty" applications, with proofload strengths equal to or greater than that of a standard hex nut of the same size. The "RIVNUT" is an example of such an insert.

http://www.swfastener.com/pdf/RIVNUT...inalRivnut.pdf

TJ · 11-05-2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Not sure if you are saying the holes in the frame are hex hexed, but if you are.
The Serts I used to mount the PS plate on my 53' are hex shaped, to match the holes. No issue with slippage. I know they sell round ones too. If you are drilling holes, you can file them into hex shaped holes to mount the serts. More work, but reduces the issue of slippage if you don't have a welder.

There is no way I would use nutserts on anything connected to the steering.

Merc Cruzer · 11-05-2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ

There is no way I would use nutserts on anything connected to the steering.

My understanding is that is how it was done at the factory.

rotorwrench · 11-05-2018, 02:53 PM

I've had occasion to find steering gears loose on riveted assemblies. I'm talking 1/4" steel compressed rivets in 3/16" or thicker steel frames. Granted, they were in trucks that were rode hard & put away wet. I would weld in thick threaded bushing for stuff like that and use larger bolts. Body to frame is not as critical but they generally have washers (shims) & rubber bushings to attach except for the older ones that still use wood blocks. Rivet nuts set up a bit so they would need a countersink or counter bore to fit flush. Hex ones wouldn't need to be key holed but cutting a hex hole would be a PITA.

Running on flathead power, a person doesn't really need a boxed frame. I like getting to nuts & bolts. If a person has a hopped up monkey motion OHV mill then a boxed frame would keep the flex down during those bad burn outs. I'd still want the body on there with good fasteners. Nothing will whizz you off more than putting a wrench to a bolt and have it turn but not loosen. Everything wears out eventually.

khschs · 11-07-2018, 08:53 AM

Thanks for all the input. I think I will slot the frame, from the inside, fab some nut plates and weld them in.
Nutserts, without the proper installation tool, is kind iffy. I don't want to do this twice. I'm too damn old.
Keith

Mart · 11-07-2018, 09:04 AM

Why not just use a hole saw and put a hole in the boxing plate adjacent to all the hole locations? about 1-1/2" should be enough if carefully located. You won't weaken it to a critical degree, and as it an extra anyway, it will still be stronger than stock. You can then get access through the holes and be able to use washers, lockwashers and nuts or whatever was used as stock. From memory my 32 sedan used 7/16 and 3/8 coach bolts in various locations.

The holes in the boxing plates would allow air to circulate and allow the application of various anti corrosion products.

Mart.

11-03-2018, 09:27 AM	#1
khschs Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 70	Nutserts Are nutserts adequate to bolt the body(32cabriolet) to the frame(32 geni boxed)? If so what size and type? Keith

11-03-2018, 10:18 AM	#2
51 MERC-CT Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Hartford, Ct Posts: 5,898	Re: Nutserts 3/8" dia is probably what the original bolts were and would be adequate. Then there's finding a way to set the steel nutserts. __________________ DON'T RECALL DOING SOMETHING FOR MYSELF BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LIKES OR DISLIKES

11-03-2018, 10:51 AM	#3
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Nutserts Aren't those afterthoughts great. A thoroughly boxed frame can have small access holes cut into it to use nuts or captive nuts. If you use threaded inserts, get the best ones you can. Some are not keyed or knurled and can spin free after they get crusty. Hanson and other suppliers carry the plated steel types but you will need the puller to set them. Keenserts are another possibility but they are threaded and may need more thickness than is available. Another thought would be welding in threaded bushings.

11-03-2018, 11:19 AM	#4
TJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napa,California Posts: 6,029	Re: Nutserts I would put access holes in the frame and use regular nuts and bolts. I would not trust nutserts to mount a body.

11-03-2018, 11:25 AM	#5
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Re: Nutserts Check out nutserts for the racing world. You need a special tool but after that, they are very good and strong. I used them for the floor in my present 32 5-window project ... __________________ Run to the LA Roadster Show - 2016 My Run to Bonneville - 2013 My 32 5-Window Build My Run to the LSRU

11-03-2018, 12:40 PM	#6
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Nutserts Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The nutserts should be as strong or stronger than the bolt you use in them, can not get much better than that.

11-03-2018, 09:43 PM	#8
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: Nutserts I use Marson nutserts for accessories but wouldn't use them for any heavy duty fastening. Nutserts are threaded pop-rivets.

11-03-2018, 09:51 PM	#9
Tinker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: MN Posts: 7,053	Re: Nutserts This to me is interesting. Friction welding has been around a long time. Plastic packaging uses it a ton. Even Henry. Not real practical in all applications. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRimtRpcf

11-04-2018, 08:29 AM	#10
5851a Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: NE Iowa Posts: 1,664	Re: Nutserts FRAME BRACKET INSERT INSTALLATION On most cars equipped with power-assisted steering (Mustangs, Falcons, Fairlanes, Mavericks and their Mercury counterparts), the Frame Mount Bracket is secured to the drivers side frame rail by three bolts; one bolt & nut assembly that goes horizontally through the bracket and rail, and two bolts that run vertically through the bracket and into inserts mounted in the frame rail. Most cars have the holes and extra metal in the rails for these inserts from the factory - in case power steering is installed. Only cars planned for power steering installation have the inserts installed in the rails. For cars not so equipped, collapsable inserts must be installed. As with most things, there is a proper way to install these inserts. Simply setting them in place and tightening a bolt down in them will usually result in an inadequately crushed insert or a bolt broken off in the frame. The directions shown here are taken from Ford dealer-installed power steering instructions sheets and show the way Ford intended them to be installed. Parts Required: (2) Frame Inserts; Ford Part No. 000000-S (1) Hex Head Bolt - Grade 8; 3/8" x 16 x 1 1/2" (1) Hex Nut; 3/8" x 16 (1) Washer - Thick large diameter; 3/8" hole 1) Locate insert holes in frame rail. There should be a second layer of metal just inside the rail with a hex-shaped hole on it. This hex-shaped hole is to keep the insert from turning as it is tightened down. If your rail does not have this hex-shaped hole, you may have to tack-weld the insert in place to prevent it from turning. 2) Using the diagram to the left as a guide, thread Nut onto Bolt until about 1/8"-3/16" from head of bolt. Apply Lubriplate or similar lubricant to on side of the Washer and install this side of the Washer onto the Bolt and against the Nut. Thread Insert onto Bolt until snug against the Washer. Make sure that some of the Bolt is extending out of the other end of the Insert. 3) Install this assembly into the hex hole in the frame rail, making certain that the Insert is flush with the bottom surface of the frame. 4) Using the proper tools, hold the Bolt stationary and tighten the Nut to collapse the Insert. It will take a minmum of three (3) complete turns of the Nut to collapse the Insert. 5) Remove Bolt and check tightness of the Insert in the frame rail. It should be tightly fastened in place. If Insert is still not tight in frame, re-install Bolt and tighten Nut until Insert is secure in frame. Ford recommended disgarding the Bolt used for installing the Inserts and not using them to mount the frame bracket in place. This was because the act of installing the two inserts put a great deal of stress on the Bolt and could possibly weaken it, making it unsuitable for bracket retention. Install the bracket with the correct original bolts or use new ones. Ford also recommended tack-welding the edge of the Insert to the frame rail in three places after installation. This was not done on factory-installed inserts, but Ford probably used a more secure attachment method on these. If possible, tack-welding the inserts in place is a good idea for extra strength and durability. When installing the Frame Bracket to the frame rail, Ford recommended installing and torquing the horizontal bolt through the frame and bracket before installing the two lower bolts. Torque settings on all three mounting bolts is 35-43 ft/lbs.

11-04-2018, 08:31 AM	#11
5851a Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: NE Iowa Posts: 1,664	Re: Nutserts Bad part of this is the holes a hex shaped.

11-04-2018, 09:30 AM	#12
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,470	Re: Nutserts Been in the chassis business for almost 40 years and have only used nutserts in an emergency. If I forgot to weld nuts under a hole I usually use welded bungs in the holes I missed although the guys I buy my rails from rarely forget. I've had even the really good nutserts turn with old age. I always use anti-seize on the body and fender bolts.

11-05-2018, 02:53 PM	#18
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Nutserts I've had occasion to find steering gears loose on riveted assemblies. I'm talking 1/4" steel compressed rivets in 3/16" or thicker steel frames. Granted, they were in trucks that were rode hard & put away wet. I would weld in thick threaded bushing for stuff like that and use larger bolts. Body to frame is not as critical but they generally have washers (shims) & rubber bushings to attach except for the older ones that still use wood blocks. Rivet nuts set up a bit so they would need a countersink or counter bore to fit flush. Hex ones wouldn't need to be key holed but cutting a hex hole would be a PITA. Running on flathead power, a person doesn't really need a boxed frame. I like getting to nuts & bolts. If a person has a hopped up monkey motion OHV mill then a boxed frame would keep the flex down during those bad burn outs. I'd still want the body on there with good fasteners. Nothing will whizz you off more than putting a wrench to a bolt and have it turn but not loosen. Everything wears out eventually.

11-07-2018, 08:53 AM	#19
khschs Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 70	Re: Nutserts Thanks for all the input. I think I will slot the frame, from the inside, fab some nut plates and weld them in. Nutserts, without the proper installation tool, is kind iffy. I don't want to do this twice. I'm too damn old. Keith

11-07-2018, 09:04 AM	#20
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,744	Re: Nutserts Why not just use a hole saw and put a hole in the boxing plate adjacent to all the hole locations? about 1-1/2" should be enough if carefully located. You won't weaken it to a critical degree, and as it an extra anyway, it will still be stronger than stock. You can then get access through the holes and be able to use washers, lockwashers and nuts or whatever was used as stock. From memory my 32 sedan used 7/16 and 3/8 coach bolts in various locations. The holes in the boxing plates would allow air to circulate and allow the application of various anti corrosion products. Mart.