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Old 09-11-2017, 08:35 AM   #1
dan ia
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Default Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Good morning, I normally hang out in the early V8 forum, but look here time to time... I have recently started working on a 1930 Coupe that my grandfather owned, it has been sitting for a little over 10 years since it ran. It did run great when it was put away. I have gone through all the normal things to start her back up: changed fluids, spark plugs, checked timing (it has spark), drained gas/filled with new and replaced the shut off valve, it has a marvel schebler carb, took that off and cleaned it all out. Now, it will start up on full choke but only runs for a couple of seconds then dies... it almost acts like its not getting enough fuel.

My question: is there anything special that I need to be doing with this carb to set it up?? I have messed with the GAV and opened it up more which seemed to help at first. I have had a hard time getting information on this model carb.

Also, is it possible that its dying because it is losing spark?
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:43 AM   #2
mike657894
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

the spark is usually good or not. my car did that when it had a intake leak. check your fuel flow from the tank. if it has the stock iron unit on the firewall there is a screen tube pencil filter in that cast bulb. the bottom comes off. A lot of us have found inches of sludge in our oil pans. others have been restored and have clean pans. if you dont know take the pan down and clean it out. gav procedure is one turn out till started and about 1/8 to 1/4 just to keep it from back firing
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:53 AM   #3
Big hammer
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Remove the gas line at the carburetor and check for good gas flow. If gas lines are inserted to deeply it will restrict fuel flow. If you then have good fuel flow to the carburetor, you may need to work your carburetor over again :-(
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:07 AM   #4
barnstuf
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

You will receive some good suggestions and I will add that the usual first step if you suspect fuel problems is to remove the gas cap and set it aside temporarily as the cause just might be the gas cap vent is plugged.
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:07 AM   #5
Benson
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

The engine starts and dies might be because the GAV is not set properly for a cold start.

Before changing everything try this:

The GAV takes the place of the vacuum operated Choke pulloff of later carbs.

Standard starting procedure for old cars and airplane engines with this type of carburetor is to turn GAV GENTLY clockwise until it stops then open 1 turn.

Engage starter then pull choke lever while engine is turning for 1 or 2 seconds then release , engine will usually fire up.

There was a U Tube video on how to start a Model A where the guy pulls the choke without the engine turning. Of course it fails to start.

If engine dies you need more GAV to enrichen cold running mixture. So open GAV another 1/2 turn and try to start.

If it is 10 to 20 degrees you will need a richer mixture to keep engine running.

As engine warms ... close down GAV until 1/4 turn open ... 1/4 turn is good for normal operation.

Last edited by Benson; 09-11-2017 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:12 AM   #6
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Most likely, the carb just needs a THOROUGH cleaning.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:01 AM   #7
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Hi Dan,

FWIW, From experience:

If driving your (87) year old Model A is more important than constantly dealing with normal fuel starvation caused by an (87) year old original fuel tank normally full of either accumulated fine rust, sand, old gas varnish, and what not usually causing severely clogged fuel lines, clogged fuel shut off valves under tanks, and clogged carburetor screens, jets, or what ever, please .... "First" .... treat yourself to an "in-tank" fuel filter screen, for example, Part No. 13280 in Bratton's on line catalog and eliminate the most very normal "Won't Start" & "Won't Run Long" scenario questions repeatedly asked on Model A Forums thousands of times over and over the past (20) years.

A Model A stopping, "at any time" in the middle of today's fast moving traffic because of fuel starvation is a definite "Life Safety Hazard" ....... nothing to play around with today.

No modern fast moving driver today will expect a stalled vehicle sitting in the middle of today's highway.

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 09-11-2017 at 10:11 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:09 AM   #8
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Quote:
Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin View Post
Hi Dan,

FWIW:

If driving your (87) year old Model A is more important than constantly dealing with normal fuel starvation caused by an (87) year old original fuel tank normally full of either accumulated fine rust, sand, old gas varnish, and what not usually causing severely clogged fuel lines, clogged fuel shut off valves under tanks, and clogged carburetor screens, jets, or what ever, please .... "First" .... treat yourself to an "in-tank" fuel filter screen, for example, Part No. 13280 in Bratton's on line catalog and eliminate a very normal "won't run long" scenario question asked on Model A Forums thousands of time over the past (20) years.
I agree completely. You can clean the carb for ever, if the tank is dirty, most likely is, it will be your life's work.

Does not take much to clog carb jets. Get a filter in line or in tank.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:16 AM   #9
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Had to add the "Life Safety Hazard" part to (7) & (8) above ..... after a crash, Model A owners who are Graveyard-Bound cannot push their Model A's off to the side of the road for safety ...... and continue driving tomorrow.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

My car had been on blocks for 30 years with everything plugged up. I cleaned all lines and carb, and it would run for a bit and quit. Shutoff valve was getting clogged. Installed new in-tank screen. Now all is well.
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:52 PM   #11
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1928Mik View Post
My car had been on blocks for 30 years with everything plugged up. I cleaned all lines and carb, and it would run for a bit and quit. Shutoff valve was getting clogged. Installed new in-tank screen. Now all is well.
1928Mik,
Be SURE to tell EVERYONE about those filters, they're a GODSEND!
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:40 PM   #12
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

FWIW, Even worse complex fuel problem:

A. My 1930 Town Sedan sat on Canadian Goodrich tires for 30 years in New York, in heated storage, with (2) former owner/car collectors where the first collector had it for 10 years, second collector 20 years; in 30 years, odometer had only about 500 miles since last restoration when I bought it. Former owner guess he traveled 200 - 250 miles in 20 years.

B. One (1) Big Problem: One former owner used the MAFCA 1970's "The Restorer" article on how to seal a gas tank with black, "Permatex Sealer mixed with alcohol to seal his fusty gas tank.

C. After I did a total mechanical rebuild from bumper to bumper, (all new moving parts like bushings, bearings, ring & pinion, pistons, rings, new cam, cam gear, new valves and guides, etc., etc.); I filled gas tank with fresh 10% ethanol gasoline which caused the fuel tank's "Permatex" sealer to dissolve.

D. Safely made one 10 mile trip to bring my son and his wife to their wedding reception and safely drove 10 miles back with no problem.

E. Difficult to start next day. Found on the inside of the carburetor and inside of the intake manifold a thick black coating of dissolved hard, tar like "Permatex" that had formerly dissolved in the fuel tank and stuck to these warm metal surfaces.

F. Cleaned inside of fuel tank, carburetor, manifold etc., with POR 15 Marine Clean, installed an in-tank screen about 10 years ago and never had a starting or engine running problem since.

(One other big problem, <not fuel related>, was one (1) side, (bottom side), of the cam shaft had deep rust pits where cam had to be replaced.)

Just hope this can help anyone in the future who finds a stored for a long time, non-running Model A.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Assuming the tank is clean and there is no crud, my Marvel would only start with a full turn open on the GAV. Don't know why then I could totally close it off and it ran great at idle.

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Old 09-12-2017, 10:51 AM   #14
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Something else after 10 years:

1. Who can we contact to know or to remember when was the last time the oil pan was dropped & cleaned "after" former Model A owners may or may not have used non-detergent oil?

2. After 30 years of my Town Sedan sitting in storage, former owner said he used only non-detergent oil. I unscrewed the oil pan plug and no oil came out because of 1" thick sludge in bottom of oil pan and 1/4" thick sludge in bottom of valve chamber. Oil pump screen was clogged solid with goo.

3. On my 1930 coupe I went 30 years without dropping the oil pan while always using detergent oil. When oil pan removed, absolutely no sludge and oil looked new after having been changed about every 500 miles.

4. Just something some may want to consider just in case someone is concerned with future maintenance costs and keeping their Model A's out of maintenance shops or garages.
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:36 PM   #15
dan ia
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Thanks for the help and ideas! I went out last night, checked all the lines and have good fuel flow. I should have mentioned that I put a dirty leg on this before starting and also another filter in the sediment bowl. I Checked the filter going into the carb and found it to be really dirty so I cleaned it out, I also took the bowl off and did a quick check of everything, and cleaned out the main jet. Put everything back together and tried starting again, it cranked once and then nothing just clicks... I think the bendix is stuck. So, off onto another adventure working on the starter tonight! I'll update with what I find, thanks again!
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:21 PM   #16
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

FWIW:

Had a unique experience 48 years ago. Model A sat for 3 years. Bought "new" battery; however, with key "ON" ...... "click, click, click!"

Went to get tools to remove my starter. My mechanic Uncle, (born 1905), looked at it after I left .... he subsequently left a note on windshield, "Dead Battery"

To prove he was wrong I took this new battery back where the Shell garage attendant checked it ........ time to eat crow ....... this brand new battery was "Dead".

Installed another new battery ..... all good.

Learned to never trust everything just because it is new.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Before you pull the starter try the hand crank to see if the engine turns over to eliminate it being stuck on the ring gear.
I'm thinking that your trouble could be as simple as a bad ground to the frame. Pull the connection apart and clean it up really well and give it a try.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:43 AM   #18
dan ia
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Update: I pulled the starter out last night, it must have been stuck it made a pop noise and came right out ... I cleaned all the contacts and put back together, and it works! Now, I opened up the idle adjuster screw and opened the GAV 1 full turn, cranked and IT NOW STARTS!

Now, does anyone have information on how to tune a Marvel carb?? I think it might be running a *little* lean, it ran for about 5 minutes which was enough to get the entire exhaust system cherry red hot! Thanks for the help and all comments so far! Just a little more and she should be on the road again soon
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Starting for the first time in 10 years!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan ia View Post
Update: I pulled the starter out last night, it must have been stuck it made a pop noise and came right out ... I cleaned all the contacts and put back together, and it works! Now, I opened up the idle adjuster screw and opened the GAV 1 full turn, cranked and IT NOW STARTS!

Now, does anyone have information on how to tune a Marvel carb?? I think it might be running a *little* lean, it ran for about 5 minutes which was enough to get the entire exhaust system cherry red hot! Thanks for the help and all comments so far! Just a little more and she should be on the road again soon
Are you advancing the spark after you start? Running too late will cause the exhaust to glow, also check points they may have closed up on you, set points to .020 then retime according to the instruction book.
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