51 v-8 water pump shaft bushing problems

[LazarusLong]

Ok,so the weather turned nice,my chemo isn't kicking my butt or destroying my memory quite as bad,so I start driving the non-power steering 51 Ford Vicky again. Then one day I notice the fan seems to have been kissing the radiator on the passenger side.


My first thought was,"no problem. I will just shim the radiator further away from the fan on that side when I get a chance." A couple of days later the chemo mind cleared of some fog,and I realized all that would do would be to delay how long it is before the fan sailed through the radiator,and I needed a new plan.


Am having no luck at all finding a fan shaft,bushing.bearings,or a rebuilt generator stand/fan stand. Every one of the old Ford parts suppliers I call tell me to find a old one and use that. The problem is I already have a old one on the engine,and that's why it is kissing the radiator. They sit somewhere for a couple of decades without spinning,and corrosion develops on the inside and the shaft and housing "marry" each other. Sure,you can un-stick them when you un-stick the engine and get them working,but the problem is they are now worn and/or grooved,and it is now just a matter of (a short) time before it goes bad,too.


Someone on the phone from Dennis Carpenters suggested using a shaft from a water pump rebuild kit to rebuild the fan/generator mount housing,but couldn't remember which years had the right size bearings and shafts.


Anyone have any suggestions on this other than converting the car to 12 volts and using a electric fan,or just putting a 302 in it? I really don't want to do either. I could probably live with a 6 volt radiator fan if I had to,but would rather keep the car as close to original as possible.

[RalphM]

Post pictures of your setup, someone here may be able to point you in the right direction. I might even have a spare, is it wide pulley, or narrow? I’m guessing sealed bearing. I put one of the wide belt 46-48 oiled hubs in my 8ba, they can be serviced, and parts are available. There is also someone making them in a sealed bearing style.

[WABOOM]

Speedway sells flathead water pumps with seal bearings and improved impeller.

[WABOOM]

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/1949-...Belt,5317.html

[RalphM]

I believe he’s looking for a fan, or a way to repair his.

[WABOOM]

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Oops. Sorry about that. I guess I needed more coffee.

[19Fordy]

Would it be possible to [post a photo and a part # of what you need?

[flatheadmurre]

If it´s the non oiled fan hub...it is a waterpump bearing in it...

[Bob C]

See post #2 at the link. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ight=fan%2Ahub


Ebay link https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...pg=50&_fosrp=1


Bob

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by RalphM

Post pictures of your setup, someone here may be able to point you in the right direction. I might even have a spare, is it wide pulley, or narrow? I’m guessing sealed bearing. I put one of the wide belt 46-48 oiled hubs in my 8ba, they can be serviced, and parts are available. There is also someone making them in a sealed bearing style.

Thanks. Bob Drake makes new ones with aluminum hubs,but they are for the 48 and earlier,or for pu's. I am trying to keep my car as original as possible if I can.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by WABOOM

Speedway sells flathead water pumps with seal bearings and improved impeller.

Thanks,but the water pumps have nothing to do with the fan blade in 51 cars. Uses a separate belt.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by RalphM

I believe he’s looking for a fan, or a way to repair his.

Thanks,Ralph. Actually look for the fan shaft and bushing. Checked all the usual suspects with no luck so far,was hoping maybe someone here would know of a local machine shop that makes and installs them in original housings.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Would it be possible to [post a photo and a part # of what you need?

According to Dennis Carpenter and Van Pelt,nobody,including Ford ever made them available as separate parts. You had to buy the whole housings to get the shaft. Kinda sounds like a country song,doesn't it?

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Bob C

See post #2 at the link. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ight=fan%2Ahub


Ebay link https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...pg=50&_fosrp=1


Bob

Thanks,Bob. Just found the same bearing for 12 bucks on ebay,and ordered one. Also asked the buyer about a shaft. If I can make it work,I will be buying the other bearing and having my shaft welded up and ground down,or just buy a new one if I can find it.


Guess I will be riding around without a fan for the time being while waiting for this to come in. Good thing I don't have to drive in city traffic.

[tubman]

Listen to "flatheadmurre". There is a water pump bearing that you can use to replace the fan bearing. I did it on my '51. The only thing I had to do was cut off the shaft on the bearing because it was too long. After trimming the shaft it fit perfectly. I don't think it's a bearing from a flathead, but something else. I'll try to find my post about it (I think it was "Ross-F1" who gave me the number.) Maybe he remembers and will jump in here.

Please be aware that you will need a press in press the bearing in. I tried a vise and a BFH, and I just couldn't get it to go the last 1/16".

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

Listen to "flatheadmurre". There is a water pump bearing that you can use to replace the fan bearing. I did it on my '51. The only thing I had to do was cut off the shaft on he bearing because it was too long. After trimming the shaft it fit perfectly. I don't think it's a bearing from a flathead, but something else. I'll try to find my post about it (I think it was "Ross-F1" who gave me the number.) Maybe he remembers and will jump in here.

Please be aware that you will need a press in press the bearing in. I tried a vise and a BFH, and I just couldn't get it to go the last 1/16".

Thanks!



As I wrote above I found the recommended shaft for 12 bucks after using the parts number to look around,and will be working on doing this fix once I get feeling better. The cancer and the chemo have me too confused and weak to do much right now.


To get by in the meantime I ordered a 6 volt fan with the relay to use behind my radiator,and am having a friend with a resto shop do it for me. I figure I can always pull the electric fan off to use on something else later if need be after I get the original back on again. I will most likely have the resto shop guy grind the rivets off the fan blade to reduce stress on the shaft in the car now. Once I get able to fix it,I will just rivet it back on again.


I am determined to try to avoid any modifications I don't have to make on this car. I had to use the wrong material for the seat covers because I just didn't have the money for original material,and I will use the same material for the door panels. It kinda looks original and nice,but a lot cheaper. My plan is/was to keep the car as close to original as possible,while still making it attractive enough to tempt someone into buying it and not hotrodding or customizing it. I like rods and some customs,but original cars with the original drive trains in them are getting hard to find,and not everything needs to be modified. It runs and drives like a dream,so if it ain't broke I ain't going to try to fix it.



Plus,this beats the hell out of driving down the road while sitting in a hole with a spring poking me in the butt.

[flatford8]

I like that seat!!.... Mark

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by flatford8

I like that seat!!.... Mark

Thanks! I had the front and back,along with the parcel shelf done with it,and it only cost me 500 bucks!


Not a bad price given that the front seat had to be stripped down to the springs and everything had to be added new.


This was a untouched original car with 72 K miles on it when I bought it. It had probably been sitting for 10 + years. The gas tank had a rust hole in the top big enough for me to stick my fist in,the master cylinder was missing,and the brake line was rusted out. Replaced all that with new,put new shocks on it,new whitewall radial tires,new water pumps,new radiator,radiator hoses,new fan belts,found,bought,and rebuilt the right carb with the dash pot,new plug wires,etc,etc,etc. Even have new chrome to replace most of the old rusty stuff. I will still be short the trim piece that goes over the steering column in FOM cars,the chrome "spears" on the rear quarters,and a new front bumper,but that's about it. Hope to drive it around this summer and enjoy it for a while with a For Sale sign in the window,and eventually find a new home for it and enough money to redo my 6 cylinder coupe the way I want it done.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by tubman

Listen to "flatheadmurre". There is a water pump bearing that you can use to replace the fan bearing. I did it on my '51. The only thing I had to do was cut off the shaft on he bearing because it was too long. After trimming the shaft it fit perfectly. I don't think it's a bearing from a flathead, but something else. I'll try to find my post about it (I think it was "Ross-F1" who gave me the number.) Maybe he remembers and will jump in here.

Please be aware that you will need a press in press the bearing in. I tried a vise and a BFH, and I just couldn't get it to go the last 1/16".

Bearing exact match is NDH 885106, obsolete

Best match is universal water pump bearing NSK 885586, shaft is just longer but easy to trim.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232230

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Bearing exact match is NDH 885106, obsolete

Best match is universal water pump bearing NSK 885586, shaft is just longer but easy to trim.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232230

Is this for a 51 passenger car fan spindle,or a water pump? I ask because I need to replace the bearing,and maybe the shaft in my fan housing,not either of my water pumps.


I mentioned water pump in an earlier post because someone told me SOME model water pump shafts and bearings were easily converted to work in the fan housing.

[JSeery]

Check post #15 above. The bearing is the same, fan or water pump and the shaft can be made to work.

[tubman]

Yes. As I mentioned above, installed one in the fan assembly of my '51 Ford. The bearings original purpose was for a water pump in some other vehicle, but it fits the fan carrier perfectly after trimming the shaft.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Check post #15 above. The bearing is the same, fan or water pump and the shaft can be made to work.

Thanks!

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

Yes. As I mentioned above, installed one in the fan assembly of my '51 Ford. The bearings original purpose was for a water pump in some other vehicle, but it fits the fan carrier perfectly after trimming the shaft.

Thanks!


As I mentioned earlier,I have one of these shafts on order that I found on ebay for 12 bucks and change.

[Ross F-1]

I don't see how you could buy the bearing without a shaft. This is a cartridge type bearing, with an integral shaft.

[40 Deluxe]

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Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Is this for a 51 passenger car fan spindle,or a water pump? I ask because I need to replace the bearing,and maybe the shaft in my fan housing,not either of my water pumps.


I mentioned water pump in an earlier post because someone told me SOME model water pump shafts and bearings were easily converted to work in the fan housing.

I realize that I'm jumping offtrack here, but just curious to know if you ever found a Ford-O-Matic to put behind your flathead six?

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

I realize that I'm jumping offtrack here, but just curious to know if you ever found a Ford-O-Matic to put behind your flathead six?

Yes,in fact I ended up with one I had rebuilt, one good used one a guy pulled out of his Vicky to replace with a C4,and two unknown condition for parts.


AFAIK,all I am missing now is the correct bellhousing and starter plate,and the trim piece that goes on the dash over the steering column on FOM cars. I THINK I can make an adaptor using a PU bellhousing,but won't know for sure until I get the flat 6 pulled from my parts car and sitting on my shop floor so I can start on it and see what is what.

I'm not good at just visualizing things. I need to get the parts in my hand and look at them to try to figure out how to make them work with each other.

Right now I am not doing anything physical because I have stage 4 lymphoma and the chemo is making me so confused I don't know what is going on half the time. Should be done with the chemo in Aug,and can maybe start getting my mind and strength back then.


If you know someone that needs one to rebuild,I can sell one of the cores if I can find it. As I am sure you know,the 52 Ford uses the same short shaft FOM as the 51.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

I don't see how you could buy the bearing without a shaft. This is a cartridge type bearing, with an integral shaft.

I am working with a handicap here. I am unable to do my own work at this time,so the car is at a restoration shop to have the repairs done. All I have to go on is him telling me I need a new bearing in it. Talked to him yesterday and he still hasn't taken it off because I told him to not take it off until I can find the parts.

I live in a rural area,so if necessary I can remove the fan itself to reduce the stress,and still drive the car. No stop and go traffic for it to boil over in,and I have a 6 volt radiator fan and relay on order.


I had already ordered the shaft without the bearing before I found out what type of bearing it is. I will see if I can find the right bearing for the shaft I ordered after it comes in. If not,I will just buy the water pump shaft and bearing you recommended. I will be out less than 20 bucks on the one I bought,so no big deal. My main concern is to keep the car running and driving so I can enjoy it until somebody comes along that wants to buy it.



BTW,thank you for your time and your help on this.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Yes,in fact I ended up with one I had rebuilt, one good used one a guy pulled out of his Vicky to replace with a C4,and two unknown condition for parts.


AFAIK,all I am missing now is the correct bellhousing and starter plate,and the trim piece that goes on the dash over the steering column on FOM cars. I THINK I can make an adaptor using a PU bellhousing,but won't know for sure until I get the flat 6 pulled from my parts car and sitting on my shop floor so I can start on it and see what is what.

I'm not good at just visualizing things. I need to get the parts in my hand and look at them to try to figure out how to make them work with each other.

Right now I am not doing anything physical because I have stage 4 lymphoma and the chemo is making me so confused I don't know what is going on half the time. Should be done with the chemo in Aug,and can maybe start getting my mind and strength back then.


If you know someone that needs one to rebuild,I can sell one of the cores if I can find it. As I am sure you know,the 52 Ford uses the same short shaft FOM as the 51.

Ah yes, "the correct bellhousing"! Have you found whether they exist? I remember '51 Ford ads listing a Ford-O-Matic for the flat 6, but were any ever really built? As far as using a standard trans bellhousing, I think the critical dimension would be the depth (from trans face to block face). But with a mill, lathe, welder and patience, 'most anything can be done.

[jimvette59]

It is the same bearing as a early chevy like 59 water pump. The shaft is part of the bearing and may have to be cut to your length.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Ah yes, "the correct bellhousing"! Have you found whether they exist? I remember '51 Ford ads listing a Ford-O-Matic for the flat 6, but were any ever really built? As far as using a standard trans bellhousing, I think the critical dimension would be the depth (from trans face to block face). But with a mill, lathe, welder and patience, 'most anything can be done.

I am 99 percent sure some were made and put up for sale because I have official Ford sales literature for 51 Fords,and the sales literature brags about how "If you buy a Ford you don't have to pay extra to buy a V-8 to enjoy having an automatic transmission in your car,because it is an option with 6 cylinder engines in 1951 Fords!"


Almost certainly not a direct quote because I am writing from memory,but that is the essence of it. Henry Ford was known to be cheap/thrifty,and I have a hard time believing he approved of spending the money on advertising to sell cars he wasn't building.


IMHO,it just wasn't a popular option back then because people so cheap they bought a flat 6 Ford instead of "having V-8 POWER!" at just a few bucks more were unlikely to order anything other than a standard shift with overdrive.


I am GUESSING that Ford blewthem out at bargain prices to fleet buyers to get rid of them after the initial production,and then just stopped taking orders. After all,the following year they would be offering a OHV inline 6 engine with more power to replace the flathead,and two years later would be dumping the flat V-8,so it may have just made business sense to quiety drop it than spend big bucks advertising and trying to sell "a horse that is already dying".


As for using the truck bellhousing and starter plate,I'm not even going to try to guess. I bought them off ebay because it SEEMED like they might be the easiest way to create what I need,and I will find out once I have the parts car engine sitting blocked up on my shop floor so I can see what there is to be seen and measured.


Since I may be losing my left leg being able to drive my 51 coupe will require an AT. It is either do this or put a V-8 in the car,and I want to keep the flat 6.


Then again,I do have a 339 cube Lincoln flat V-8 sitting out in the yard,and GM hydro trans from the early 50's will bolt to it...........

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by jimvette59

It is the same bearing as a early chevy like 59 water pump. The shaft is part of the bearing and may have to be cut to your length.

Thanks@


Would this be from a 6 cyl or V-8 50's Chevy?