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05-13-2019, 07:58 AM | #21 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Quote:
About a week later, Barney calls me and says I owe $4.75 in additional shipping and if I would kindly mail the difference to him. I gladly did, but thought that was an interesting phone call. RIP Mr. Navarro. |
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05-13-2019, 11:34 AM | #22 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Tim. You did the honorable thing.
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05-13-2019, 03:54 PM | #23 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
“It would be interesting to see how those heads are machined after casting.
Quality control seems lacking.” I can tell exactly how they were machined by looking at the tool marks and that is not the right way to do it. Fastest, maybe, but not right. With just minimally more time, a mirror finish could be achieved. Misplaced holes, poorly aligned water outlets and spotface angles off are usually machine setup faults, not engineering faults. Many products these days are done the fastest way that will “get by”. A sad thing about these many products is the marketing department. They have people giving out information about things they don’t have a clue how they work in real life applications. They have never seen or done it themselves. The company may be owned by the nicest guy you ever met that holds world records and gives all kinds of money to medical research and the homeless, but has a very poor employee training program. I don’t know what the answer is but I don’t like dealing with it every day. |
05-15-2019, 11:24 AM | #24 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
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And considering of those 3 brands the Navarro are the most expensive. |
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05-15-2019, 12:28 PM | #25 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Just another shoddy product from H&H. Hatchet & Hammer.
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05-16-2019, 05:14 PM | #26 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
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Here are the chambers on the heads I have on my 284 cube motor in the 32 Cab: 2015-07-17 18.15.37 copy.jpg |
05-17-2019, 07:35 PM | #27 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
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I do not like the look of the new castings, like the Edelbrock block letter heads, they look terrible. The texture of the sand they use does not leave a finish like the originals. The way they mill off the tops of the lettering turns me off. You can spot that they are repros from a long way off. The metallurgy and casting techniques have improved but I d rather have heads or an intake that Navarro, Evans, Edelbrock or Sharp once had their hands on. Its all about the history for me. I use to want to know which equipment was the best. Then I met Al Sharp and I wanted Sharp heads. Then I met Johnny Ryan of the SCTA Gophers club and I wanted Evans heads because he had worked Earl Evans casting heads. Then I became friends with Jack Calori that set the 1947 SCTA Class "C" Roadster Record. He ran a Clay Smith 272 cam. Then I wanted a Clay Smith cam, I just had two 272 cams ground by them. Certain parts when I see them remind me of these different guys. I know longer care about which intakes flow the best. Its which ones remind me of the old hot rodders I knew. I spent a couple day's with Kong Jackson. After that I had to have a Kong distributor. My ultimate flathead would be a combination of the parts associated with all these guys. A piece of them is riding along with you. I miss those guys. That really was the greatest generation. |
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05-17-2019, 08:39 PM | #28 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Too bad no one will sell you heads without the dome machined in them.
It would cut production costs for them. Sure would save a lot of work for us. |
05-18-2019, 07:48 AM | #29 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Due to the fact that the stock 8ba and EAB heads have a very good combustion chamber shape, I'm considering having the chamber filled with 10/15 cc's of brass to increase the compression. Done right, no machining is necessary. Except for setting piston to head clearance and valve clearance. I know a shop that can do it, and will check the cost. Might be cheaper than the Aluminum stuff available today. I'll get better flow and higher CR and no corrosion. For those of you who didn't race back in the 50's this was a common practice.
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05-18-2019, 08:25 AM | #30 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
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05-18-2019, 08:43 AM | #31 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
I would just like to add this, don't give up on these heads just yet.
My customer (Joe) will be speaking with H&H when these heads arrive back there. He may come back with some interesting info, I hope! If these heads could just bypass the CNC'ing program I think they may be acceptible to use. This should affect the pricing on a positive note also, no "excess" machining would be needed, only the basic! I would like to know the "as-cast" chamber volumes, we have the ability to alter this number some, we'll see where this all goes? About 70 "as-cast" cc's would be a nice target number, we can mill them smaller or rework the chambers for a bit more, with 70 as the target we could vary the same casting from 64 (nominal) to 76 (nominal). Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. I have to admit H&H is probably the very first vendor I got absolutely no "static" over the specific reasons for the heads to be returned and they DID listen closely. Mike seems to be very interested in some sort of compromise, again, we'll see where all this goes. Other than the excess machining the heads appear to "fit-the-bill"! I'll bring this post back when I can add more (maybe better) info.
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05-18-2019, 09:36 AM | #32 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
I don’t know Mike personally, but the few times I did speak to him, we had good conversations. I’m hoping this all works out for the best. We need all the flathead folks we can get.
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05-18-2019, 02:04 PM | #33 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Quote:
You can get enough compression to run alcohol then. |
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05-18-2019, 03:38 PM | #34 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Pete
My options are limited to a 258 ci displacement. So CR is hard to get. Having flow tested most stock and aftermarket heads. The EAB is probably the best. Thats why they give almost 8;1 on a 276 and with the small piston clearance make for great throttle response. I'd like to have 8.5/9 on the 258 engine and the net valve lift with the D 410 cam is 390. If the new port works, I'll need the better flow of the stock heads. Now, where do you put the brass?? 10cc of brass is about a 5/8 cube in area. If he still has the fixture to hold the heads I can melt it in the transfer area at an angle towards the exhaustside. The fixture was a double gas burner from the dark ages. it held the head about 2" abouve the burners while the head was clamped to it. He heated the head up to some temp that he tested with a stick of something. Then used his acc touch to ment in the brass.. Once it was done he through an abstouse blanket over it. I might skip that part. Gota give JWL some credit here. |
05-18-2019, 05:39 PM | #35 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
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First, get a set of flat top gas ported 2 ring pistons with narrow low tension rings that come to the deck. Set final piston to head clearance to .035. Fill the dome on the heads so they will finish flat in that area. Measure the transfer area at it's max. depth. Fill that part so it will finish about 20% less than original. If you can fill the valve area any to get your .040 clearance, do that. You can get the job done ok with brass and it will work but if it was me, I would TIG weld it with ER70 rod with preheat, peening and slow cool. If you put a vacuum pump on that engine and get 15 inches of Hg. you will gain about 20 hp. That will require some minor sealing mods but I can walk you through that if need be. |
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05-18-2019, 06:04 PM | #36 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
I probably should mention also that a 30 degree valve job with round corners on the seats will gain 10%. You may have a problem finding someone with the cutters for that though.
Most guys that do World of Outlaws and Nascar engines have them. |
05-18-2019, 06:27 PM | #37 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Now I have something to think about. however I have the pistons and crank assy. Cam and lifters. If any of this works, it will be food for others to persue. At 86, I'll be lucky to finish this one
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05-18-2019, 08:47 PM | #38 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
If you recall I covered the installation, with pictures, and sealing issues associated with crankcase vacuum pumping, in my book. I do not recommend for long term use unless lower vacuum levels are set or there are modifications made to deal with wrist pin problems.
Picking up 20 HP is something we can all wish for but is rather optimistic. Of course I have only examined and tested the results on 4 different Flathead engines with a maximum gain of about 6 HP. It is possible to get a 15 to 20 HP improvement with wet sump overhead valve engines. Most dry sumps do not need additional vacuum pumps. |
05-18-2019, 10:29 PM | #39 | |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
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05-18-2019, 11:19 PM | #40 |
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Re: Cyl Heads-Navarro vs Edelbrock or Offenhauser
Actually I was mentioning the book info so Ron could look it up.
The lower unit? Pulling vacuum in the crankcase does little for lower end performance increases when the correct pan is used. The reason what is bolted on above the block face matters is because of the additional 3,000+ RPM. As a matter of fact the engine which showed a reasonably consistent 6 HP improvement was a pretty aggressive 304 with Roller Cam and fabricated tunnel ram intake. Hardly suitable for extended street mileage. |
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