Help with Phaeton Body alignment?

[Thearne3]

I am attempting to fix the one door that is out of alignment on my '29 Phaeton. As I looked closely at the existing shims, I was surprised to find that the gap between body and fender under the rear passenger door is almost an inch! Is that normal? The running board is on the frame. The rear fender is properly seated in the well of the body and bolted to the running board. If I lower the rear, how do I adjust the fender and running board seam? Redrill? Other adjustments?

Help!

[wrndln]

Pictures would help. The body blocks raise the body some. Most shims are about 3/16" thick. As you probably already know, phaetons are tough to get all the doors aligned. A phaeton body is pretty loosee goosee. I have a 29 phaeton also. However, I am not to the stage where I have put the body on the frame - almost, but not yet. Is the body restored and you are trying to align the doors for the first time or has it that way for sometime?
Rusty Nelson

[AYooperA]

These are pics from my ‘29 Touring. I believe the body has never been removed off frame. The gap at the rear doors from the flat of the splash apron to the bottom of door threshold stamping is 5/8”. Looks more in photo because of apron radius. The spacing at front of body I would say is 1/4”. This may not be at all what you are looking for but best of luck with alignment issues.

[Flathead]

Is the frame known to be straight and true?

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by wrndln

Is the body restored and you are trying to align the doors for the first time or has it that way for sometime?
Rusty Nelson

I've uploaded some pics: door out of alignment is front passenger door.

1. Gap at lower hinge edge,
2. Top hinge alignment ok.
3. Top of latch side is too low and rubs the center post pillar
4. Gap on passenger side at rear fender is 7/8"

Gap on opposite side is 3/8" Not shown.

I have attempted to raise the area of the hinge post, but this hasn't helped. I think the hinges may be bent. But even if the hinges were not bent and the door fit at the front, the center pillar is too high.

Assuming I can lower the rear right corner by, say, 3/8", I don't see how the fender/running board can be adjusted to still fit? The fender is snug in the well of the body and attached to the running board that is sitting on the frame.

Hope this is now clearer!

Tom

[Thearne3]

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Originally Posted by Flathead

Is the frame known to be straight and true?

I need to check that. Is there an easy way to do so? Is there an unobstructed line from front to back so that a string can be used?

Thanks,
Tom

[Dick Carne]

I believe that a phaeton is probably the worst of all Model A's to get a correct door alignment, and even then ... . When attempting this years ago on our '29, it seemed that if you got the right front to properly align, then it might throw the left rear out, etc. And then if there is a person sitting in the front seat with weight applied against the seat back, it may affect the rear door alignment since the center section is not as sturdy as other Model A body styles. Several years back Marco had posted a thread showing the effect of different thicknesses of shims on a fordor alignment. As you probably know, if the front doors hang too low, then most likely a shim should be either removed from the front of the cowl section at the firewall or another one added at the front cowl post (a double hole pad), either of which should raise the level of the door at the door post connection. The same is true with the rear door, only note that if a shim is added to the center section, that it will also affect the front door as well, and in that event, will require adjustment as noted above in order to get a proper fit for the front door again. If you think that you door hinges may be bent, I might suggest that this would be a good place to start. Of course as a last resort, the hinges on an open car are far easier to bend than those on a closed car. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I think that generally these are a good "first place to start". Good luck with this project.

[al's28/33]

I will look at my '28 (not an early bird) and see what help I can provide. My rear passenger sticks at the jam when there are passengers back there but the two front doors have never stuck or been lopsided.
Have you checked the door hinges to confirm they are "true" and plumb to the doors, not bent or tweaked out in any way?

[Tinbasher]

How does the hood fit? You need to align everything from the front of the cowl. So Cowl to Hood first and then work your way back one frame bolt at a time. Before you start anything make sure the frame is square and level. Model A's had a problem where the frame "Sags" at the rear motor mount. If that area is straight and level then start to fit the body. Make sure the hinges are tight with no play. And go from there. I've spent up to 40 hours to fit a Phaeton body. So go slow and easy one frame bolt at a time. The frustrating part is that you change one bolt location with a shim or take one out and the body goes completely out of alignment.

[Karl Wescott]

Q: "How do you eat an elephant"? A: "One bite at a time".


First step is to try to understand the basics. Two good resources are:
Marco's Guide: https://web.archive.org/web/20140812...hop/door-2.htm
Wescotts Auto Tech: http://www.wescottsauto.com/WebCatal..._Technical.pdf


So, consider the phaeton as two roadsters front to back (elephant style).


Start by aligning the front cockpit, hood, grille, radiator, etc. First, align the front door to the cowl post... This REQUIRES bending the hinges. Keep the hinge pins on the same axis (a length of 15/64" O-1 drill rod is a great help here) OK, now that that is "perfect" consider the front of the body on a plane.



Any movement needed to adjust the back of the body must be done to MAINTAIN the plane of the front of the body.


Now adjust the front of the rear doors to the rear door posts, again BENDING hinges as needed. Now its a matter of shimming the back of the body and the PLANE of the front of the body until they have a perfect match. Now you have a single plane that the front and back of the body (with hood and radiator) are aligned on.


Now install the rear fenders and shim the ENTIRE PLANE of the body as needed (remember... the doors align, keep it that way).


A major point to consider during the process, each boxed section of the body (cowl, front seat back, and rear body) are controlled by four bolt points, call them A,B,C,D. Any shim under a bolt point deflects that boxed section relative to each of the other points, so a shim at A creates the effects A-B, A-C, A-D. 3 effects. So when you are one issue from where you want to be you are THREE or more shim points from the solution. Conversely the final shim will solve THREE issues.


Have fun!