Up-date on 41 front wheel shimmy

[grumppyoldman]

Have replaced kingpin's and new bushings. Had bushings honed, everything tight. No slack anywhere, still have a little shimmy at 60 mpr and goes away above 65 mph. Steering feels good not too tight and can feel no slack in gearbox or linkage. Don't know where to look next. Al

[J Franklin]

Make sure the tires & wheels are true side to side, balanced, and of course round.

[JSeery]

Sounds like a tire/wheel issue.

[aussie merc]

find some one that can on car balance as this will balance the whole rotating mass not just the wheel and tyre [ a tip if you can use a paint pen and mark the end of one wheel stud generaly closest to the valve this will allow you to refit the wheel in the same place if you need to remove it at any time ] the only down side is you need to rebalance if you rotate your tyres

[Brian]

I've experienced that by having the wheel bearings adjusted too loose.

[Ford Freak]

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[QUOTE=Brian;1684389]I've experienced that by having the wheel bearings adjusted too loose.[/QUOTE


Yep , that will do it !

[grumppyoldman]

I have the bearings pretty tight now, don't know how much more they will take. Brake drums balanced , wheels and tires re-balanced, new tires, steering stabelizer, rim run-out, tire run-out wheel wobble, nothing seems to correct problem. Still looking. Al

[TJ]

Did you replace the rubber ball on the wishbone? That can cause a problem if the rubber is worn out.

[J Franklin]

Has the car had a front end alignment?

[grumppyoldman]

Checked the wishbone for wear, none there. Alignment done, still looking. Al

[J Franklin]

Are the brake drums round? maybe on side is hitting a shoe every revolution. We are running out of possible causes!

[grumppyoldman]

Going to have the rear tires road load balanced, been working on front end all this time and realized it could be something in the rear tires. One looks to be out of round, don't know what the amount should be to be true enough. Al

[grumppyoldman]

Just had the tires road load balanced, one read 10 the other one read 51, don't really know what those no. mean. The guy that did the balancing said the 51 no. showed the tire was bad and I could see what looked like a lump on the tread when rolled by hand. Trying to get it replaced, wish me luck. Al

[corvette8n]

What brand/size tires are you running?.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

What brand/size tires are you running?.

From another post in another thread, he's running "Corky Coker" Specials. Following the progress on a replacement of the 'bad' one will be interesting. Good luck! DD

[grumppyoldman]

Coker Tire Co. rep. said I would have to go through Discount Tire to get the tire replaced. It being a weekend it will be next week before I find out what they will do. The tires are new and only have a few miles on them, mostly only trip's to Discount for balancing. They let me watch yesterday while the balancing was done (Road Force) I could see one tire had a lot of run out, the other was not bad. Al

[grumppyoldman]

Have new replacement tire on it's way, will have it road load balanced before installing on car. Am going to check balance on rear brake drums, by installing them reversed on front drums, which have been balanced already. Don't have or can't find another way to check them. Al

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by grumppyoldman

Have new replacement tire on it's way, will have it road load balanced before installing on car. Am going to check balance on rear brake drums, by installing them reversed on front drums, which have been balanced already. Don't have or can't find another way to check them. Al

This REAR DRUM thing, besides being almost impossible to realistically and physically pull-off, is probably going a bit too far, although I do realize your frustration. If you can't balance a drum as an eventual ASSEMBLY in a "to be used" condition, you're probably whizzin' UP a tree. You done good gettin' another tire on the way that easily. Again, good luck! DD

[grumppyoldman]

I've replaced the one piece hub and drum with the hub and drum that can be separated. hope to be able to take the drum's off by them selfs, turn them around backwards, mount on front drums and see if I can find a heavy spot. May so maybe no. Al

[grumppyoldman]

New tire mounted on car drove, it's better but still a little shimmy at 65-70 guess I'll swap positions and see if that helps. Al

[47Merc]

Originally Posted by grumppyoldman

I've replaced the one piece hub and drum with the hub and drum that can be separated. hope to be able to take the drum's off by them selfs, turn them around backwards, mount on front drums and see if I can find a heavy spot. May so maybe no. Al

If you are going to separate the hubs and drums you will need to get the special tool to cut the swages off the studs to let them come apart. you can't just press them off.

[grumppyoldman]

The hubs and drums I have are not like the original's they are made to be seperated without cutting the studs free. Al

[Krylon32]

When you say steering stabilizer are you talking about one of the VW type hydraulic stabilizers? It should be mounted between the tie rod and wishbone.

[grumppyoldman]

Yes that's the kind I had on the car, but removed it while trying to find out what all could be wrong causing the shimmy. When the weather let's me I'll change the location of the tire's to see if I can get it better, then maybe re-install the stabilizer if need be. It doesn't have a clamp on the end to fit to the wishbone, another FB'er gave me a place that has the mounting clamp. Al

[Tinker]

Just for the heck of it. What's your toe out/in settings?


https://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/vi...=18&topic=3368


My 38 does 70 with ndt tires and about 1/8" toe in. Set it myself so you know it's accurate.

.

[grumppyoldman]

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The best that I can tell it's 1/8" or 1/4", hard to check by my self. I need another person to hold the tape, I'm measuring the same tread in front and back of tire. I want to set it to 0" and see how that works. I can't get the tape up as high in the rear of the tire because it hits the pan. I'll keep trying different toe in settings and see how it works, Things are getting better. Al

[ford38v8]

Al, a tip on how to set your toe in very accurately: With your car on jack stands, spin each front wheel while holding a white chalk against the treads, followed by an ink pen fine line over the chalk line. This will determine a true line, not wobbly as would the treads themselves often do.

For the actual measurement between tires, a 1" x 2" with a nail in one end and a 6" rule attached to the other works well, supported by a light framework on both sides. I've used just one, but it occurs to me now that if you made two identical, it would avoid the hassle of moving it front to back of tires multiple times till you were satisfied with the adjustment.

Most guys I know set the toe in at 1/8". 1/4" is considerably more than required, and will wear out your tires rapidly.

[grumppyoldman]

Thanks for the tip, I guess that if I jacked the car up by the frame it would let the axle drop enough to get to the back of the tire better. I had a front alignment shop set the toe in, they et it 1/4" and at 50mph it almost shook the front fenders off. I've set it back some where around 1/8" and it's better. Had all 4 new Coker tires road forced balanced, doing better now. Need to know what the 2 front tires readings were after RFB, the back ones were right side 10#, left side 20#, if I can find out what the front ones are maybe switch them around and get better results. Al

[Tinker]

Another what the heck. How's your shock setup? It does dampen the suspension.

[1931 flamingo]

Go back to the front end shop and have them set it at 1/8"??
Paul in CT

[flatford8]

I think you need to have the vehicle weight on the tires to get an accurate measurement.....Mark
“I guess that if I jacked the car up by the frame it would let the axle drop enough to get to the back of the tire better.“

[Talkwrench]

I made this and did the toe in myself . no tyre ware [ and my king pins aint good ]
When you have sorted your problem fit a steering damper as cheap insurance.

[SofaKing]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

I made this and did the toe in myself . no tyre ware [ and my king pins aint good ]
When you have sorted your problem fit a steering damper as cheap insurance.

What does the other end look like? How do you use it? I ask because I used strings against the sidewall like I would have on a motorcycle. I am wondering how the beam is referenced to the vehicle.

[grumppyoldman]

Weather here is terrible and I can't do anything now,(rain-rain-rain ) is there still a sun? About to go stir crazy. Al

[grumppyoldman]

My dad used a 1" X 1" with finishing nails driven through, sticking out on the other side about 1/2". Marked the front then compared the distance on the back of the tire. It was an old 36 Chevy with hydraulic knee action front end, worst idea GM ever had. All

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by SofaKing

What does the other end look like? How do you use it? I ask because I used strings against the sidewall like I would have on a motorcycle. I am wondering how the beam is referenced to the vehicle.

Same as described in my post # 27.

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by SofaKing

What does the other end look like? How do you use it? I ask because I used strings against the sidewall like I would have on a motorcycle. I am wondering how the beam is referenced to the vehicle.

Ok from memory I started the string line to get close. But this works by jacking up the wheels spin them and use chalk down the middle and then get a fine nail to score and give you a fine and clean line to work to. next move the car back and roll it forward a few meters [ so the wheels track]. You then slide it too the back the wheels find the line you scored on the tyre. Adjust and put the points right on the lines you've scored on the tyres, lock it off . Now move to the front put one point on one line of a tyre and then you should have your 1/8" or 1/16" [whatever the setting should be ] more on the other tyre so the tyre is in. Adjust to get it, try a few times.

[JSeery]

delete

[grumppyoldman]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Another what the heck. How's your shock setup? It does dampen the suspension.

The shocks are, or look like they have been rebuilt. They are round huidilla (misspelled) don't know how to set them for best results. The pointer on front shocks turns 360 deg. while the rear ones only turn 180 deg. stop to stop. Still need to adjust them some more to see if that helps. Al

[fordor41]

Originally Posted by grumppyoldman

The shocks are, or look like they have been rebuilt. They are round huidilla (misspelled) don't know how to set them for best results. The pointer on front shocks turns 360 deg. while the rear ones only turn 180 deg. stop to stop. Still need to adjust them some more to see if that helps. Al

I had a shock that turned all the way around. Removed it and put it in a vice and adj. until it matched the other side. A side note on adjustments. We were going thru Virginia and seemed like every time we went off a bridge the car swayed badly. Wasn't fun at 75 with a truck in our back window. I got off and thought we needed more shock so adj. the fronts stiffer. Rears were tube shocks. Tried again and no change. Sure was spooky. Got home and got thinking and decided maybe we had too much shock and adj. the fronts back. It took a few tries but solved the problem. Too stiff shocks and the car wants to follow the dips in the road instead of the suspension doing it's job.

[Tinker]

So how was your toe?

[grumppyoldman]

Haven't got to do anything to it yet. Will get me some 1X1's and some small C-clamps to make a gauge to check with. Made a short drive today ( finally sunshine ) things are looking better, need chalk also. Is it better to have the tires on the ground to check for toe-in or can it be done with jack stands under frame, letting the wheels hang down. I've never done it with the tires off the ground, but I could get a higher reading, because the gauge will hit the pan before it gets to center of wheel. Al

[JSeery]

The axle isn't going to flex much and the spindles should not as well. I have never tried it both ways and compared, but don't see why it would be a problem.

[grumppyoldman]

I'll check it both ways, since I have to have it up to chalk mark the tire's anyway. will let you know if there is a difference or not. Al

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by grumppyoldman

I'll check it both ways, since I have to have it up to chalk mark the tire's anyway. will let you know if there is a difference or not. Al

Al, this is Talkwrench's toe-in measurement tool. It has uprights that allow the connecting bar to be closer to ground level, so the bar doesn't interfere with his oil pan. I really like this one, my only criticism being that the uprights look to be vulnerable to bump out of alignment while moving the tool from front to back of the wheels.

[JSeery]

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Originally Posted by grumppyoldman

I'll check it both ways, since I have to have it up to chalk mark the tire's anyway. will let you know if there is a difference or not. Al

Well be interesting to see your results.

[Tinker]

I agree with JSeery. When you have a moment, I know we all have lives too.

[grumppyoldman]

I got the toe in set at 1/32" with tire's off the slab. Will check it again tomorrow with car load to see if it changed. Couldn't raise it high enough to let wheels and axle hang free to see if there is a difference of supported under axle. Al

[Mart]

Sorry, I meant to reply earlier. You should set it with the vehicle's weight on the wheels. An old newspaper under each wheel can act as a low friction surface, a makeshift turntable if you like. A piece of wood held against each tyre 4 or 5 inches off the ground (use something to hold them at that height) and take a measurement across the pieces of wood, at the front and rear, at a distance that is approximately the diameter of the tyre.

I believe the recommended toe-in should be between 1/16 and 1/8" measured as described above.

Your 1/32 dimension may be a bit shy of what you want.

Is the steering box adjusted correctly?
Is the drag link adjusted so the "sweet spot" in the steering box adjustment coincides with the straight ahead position of the wheels?

Many later models use a steering damper. There would be no shame in fitting one if you have exhausted all other avenues.

Mart.

[Talkwrench]

"You should set it with the vehicle's weight on the wheels." Yes and you should be rolling your car forward a few meters [yards] too. Then check.

"my only criticism being that the uprights look to be vulnerable to bump out of alignment while moving the tool from front to back of the wheels." Yes you have to be careful.

[grumppyoldman]

Well I finally have it set at 1/32", set it with wheels of slab, lowered it ,still same setting rolled it back and forth no change. Ran it up to 85 mph no shimmy, Now since I have the stabelizer I will make a clamp for the axle and hook it back up, if it makes it steer harder I'll remove it. Thank's for all the help and advice you've given me. Al

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by grumppyoldman

Well I finally have it set at 1/32", set it with wheels of slab, lowered it ,still same setting rolled it back and forth no change. Ran it up to 85 mph no shimmy, Now since I have the stabelizer I will make a clamp for the axle and hook it back up, if it makes it steer harder I'll remove it. Thank's for all the help and advice you've given me. Al

THANK YOU!
The comments about the reading changing in the jacked up position versus the down on the ground position never made sense to me when talking about a car with a solid axle. I am glad you made both measurements.
And the 1/32" toe-in setting is interesting. I might have to try that one.

[Mart]

I was thinking that any minor play in the kingpins might effect the readings. Also if jacking up from the frame, the caster will be out.

Probably not massively influential , but why not test on the ground? The point about rolling forward before measuring is good, too.

I'm glad the car is driving acceptably now. Personally I'd bump the toe to 3/32 and see if still ok, as that is the factory recommendation. If it all goes horribly wrong you know you can pull it back to the present settings and restore the current acceptable situation.