Afraid I opened a can of worms

[Magoo2]

Just dropped the oil pan on my '31 truck. Found some chips of what I assume is babbitt material in the third sump of the baffle. This engine has not been rebuilt as far as I can tell. Looking for opinions as to my best options. I inherited the truck and just want to take it out occasionally. Not looking to have it rebuilt.

[aermotor]

I guess it could be something else. Will a magnet pick them up?

John

[Growley bear]

Usually, a good indication of rebuilt vs original is that Ford used steel connecting rod shims and after market are brass.

[Magoo2]

No the chips are not magnetic

[chap52]

Did you run it before you opened it up? Any scary noises?
Back when we were teens, with all the answers we would have cleaned out the pan, bolted it back on and drove it without worrying.
Now being much more sophisticated we fix-em, listen for every little sound and worry if we hear one.
For an occasional driver:
Check for any play in the rods at the crank, If tight, it's your call. Also get a Triple A membership because as your age you will no longer hear some of the strange sounds.
Except the ones in your head.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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Originally Posted by chap52

Did you run it before you opened it up? Any scary noises?
Back when we were teens, with all the answers we would have cleaned out the pan, bolted it back on and drove it without worrying.
Now being much more sophisticated we fix-em, listen for every little sound and worry if we hear one.
For an occasional driver:
Check for any play in the rods at the crank, If tight, it's your call. Also get a Triple A membership because as your age you will no longer hear some of the strange sounds.
Except the ones in your head.

Train yourself a "HEARING-EAR" Dog.
Bill Justoutofbed

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Train yourself a "HEARING-EAR" Dog.
Bill Justoutofbed

OR, get some hearings 'aids', and figure out how not to lose them...as they are very expensive !!


As to OP query , if you've done the hard work of dropping the pan, etc....why not take the rod cap of off the suspect rod and look it over ? If it is real bad, maybe you can locate a substitute rod (?), if not so bad, meaning Babbitt mostly good integrity, well..your choice.


Just like a 'can o worms', if you leave ONE bad/dying/decaying worm in a can of lively worms...guess what will eventually occur ?

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

Usually, a good indication of rebuilt vs original is that Ford used steel connecting rod shims and after market are brass.

That is not true, Ford, like ALL the engine manufactures, used brass.


You NEVER put steel, against steel, especially like the cheap tempered steel shims that Ford used for replacement service, in the 40's.


Herm.

[KGBnut]

For piece of mind, it is not that hard to take off the caps one at a time and inspect them.

Ken

[dumb person]

You'd be surprised how much metallic stuff can be in your sump, Inspect the rods if you must be but may be ...not as bad as you'd think.

[Magoo2]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate all your advice.

[Benson]

Photos of metal pieces as they appear in dipper tray would help.

Sometimes these turn out to be chunks of rod bearing side thrust babbit and are not a serious problem unless rod is loose and banging around.

[WHN]

How was it running before you took the pan off?

If you were happy with it. Clean the pan and put it back on.

Model A engines can take a lot of abuse or use. Maybe run a little heavier oil, 20w-50, with a bottle of STP. Mavel Mystery Oil in gas for valves.

200 to 300 miles per year? Even a really worn out engine could last ten to twenty years.

There great cars. Enjoy.

[Ernie Vitucci]

If the car was mine and the rods are tight on the crank, and the engine is quiet, I'd put the pan back up and drive it gently, certainly not over 40 miles an hour and listen to it now and again by putting your ear on the top of the shift lever in neutral, in the quiet of your garage and see if you hear any distressing sounds. There are times when it is best to close the can of worms rather and make things worse. Lube and change oil every 500 miles and enjoy until the sounds change. Ernie

[Magoo2]

Thanks again everyone. Car was running well when I started restoration 10 years ago. I am in the process of straining the sludge to get an idea of how much junk was in the pan. I tried to post a picture but having some problems resizing to fit parameters.

[ahirt]

If it is a bad connecting rod babbbit, Bert's sells re-babitted rods singly. Measure the crank and order a new rod from Bert's I changed all 4 of mine. Takes some work but at least I am not worried about a god failing or seizing on my old engine. A lot cheaper than a rebuild.

[Magoo2]

Shirt
Did you pull the engine? Or do it while the engine was in the car?

[1955cj5]

When I set the rod and main clearances, cleaned the pan, replaced the timing gears, both cam and crank, etc etc, I pulled the engine.

It's so much easier to work on. More fun to stand there and work than lay under with oil dripping etc.

It's not that difficult. Get an engine stand and an adapter, and find a place that will rent an engine hoist.

You can check the clutch,throw-out bearing, pilot bearing and pressure plate, even bush the clutch shaft if needed.

I learned a lot and everything got a thorough going over.....

[Railcarmover]

you can also set bearings with aluminum foil...if you still have shims,remove the cap,fold and measure a piece to aluminum foil (I found heavy duty foil folds in half to .002),stick a 1" wide measured .002 piece in the cap,torque back on.gently try to turn the crank,not much,just a touch..if it turns,pull a shim from each side just till it doesn't turn..voila!!! .002 no go,so .00175 clearance...way easier than plastigage..just remember to turn the crank no more than a nudge when fitting..the idea is to just wedge the crank at .002...this method is faster and easier when working under the car...another tip is to let the car sit without starting for 2 days before pulling the pan,let the oil drip out for as long as you can.

[Railcarmover]

and since you are already there,pull the head and slap a set of rings on it..lap the valves and she's fresh as a daisy..

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

That is not true, Ford, like ALL the engine manufactures, used brass.


You NEVER put steel, against steel, especially like the cheap tempered steel shims that Ford used for replacement service, in the 40's.


Herm.

REALLY??????? I think you need more research.

[ryanheacox]

Magoo2,

I had the same problem last year. Found some babbit in the drain plug during an oil change. Dropped the pan and found a bunch more. Found the #4 rod to be the worst (picture attached) and the rest weren't great, #2 was cracked pretty good.

No idea how many miles are actually on my engine but it has steel shims so I'm guessing old rebuild? Also, I always heard steel shims were better.

Anyway, everyone I talked to gave the same answer. If it sounds okay just run it. That would be my advice to you as well.

[Growley bear]

Over the years I have had the good fortune of talking to mechanics who rebuilt or adjusted unmolested Model A engines. They all talk about steel shims and that brass is cheap/soft. Check the Ford Garage, Vince has a very good write up on main/rod shims.
Let us not forget that Henry didn't go cheap. Cheap brass shims vs milled steel? From a man who spent almost 1/2 billion dollars designing a V8 engine block with the cylinders cast in one unit?

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

Over the years I have had the good fortune of talking to mechanics who rebuilt or adjusted unmolested Model A engines. They all talk about steel shims and that brass is cheap/soft. Check the Ford Garage, Vince has a very good write up on main/rod shims.
Let us not forget that Henry didn't go cheap. Cheap brass shims vs milled steel? From a man who spent almost 1/2 billion dollars designing a V8 engine block with the cylinders cast in one unit?

You are refering to Kronke Rebabbiting (A highly skilled and well regarded babbiting service) who has rebuilt many,many original unmolested Model A engines and in doing that work he has always found that Ford originally used brass shims but then in later years Ford used steel shims on their rebuilds, probably meaning the Ford dealers that offered that service.

[Growley bear]

I am referring to people who were the first to remove the pan/rod caps since the car/engine rolled off the assembly line. They found steel and this was before WWll.

[Growley bear]

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Looks like I'll be eating CROW for breakfast this morning.
I stand corrected. According to the "Model A Ford Construction, Operation and Repair" for the restorer by Victor Page; Information on pages 242-249 as taken from FORD MOTOR COMPANY in their book of instructions states on page 243-244 adding or removing "BRASS LINERS" as Ford called them. The same process is used with fitting connecting rods.
This being from the manufacturer is not a point that I care to argue.
It was/is not my intention to impune the expertise/knowledge of anyone. Just trying to obtain the most accurate information. Which I now believe I have done.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

Looks like I'll be eating CROW for breakfast this morning.
I stand corrected. According to the "Model A Ford Construction, Operation and Repair" for the restorer by Victor Page; Information on pages 242-249 as taken from FORD MOTOR COMPANY in their book of instructions states on page 243-244 adding or removing "BRASS LINERS" as Ford called them. The same process is used with fitting connecting rods.
This being from the manufacturer is not a point that I care to argue.
It was/is not my intention to impune the expertise/knowledge of anyone. Just trying to obtain the most accurate information. Which I now believe I have done.

Thank you, Mr. Growley.


The Guy you referred to in your post, found a set of Model A shims, made with steel in a Ford Garage one time and came to his own conclusion that is what Ford used in his Motors.


That would be like finding a NOS 18 " tire in an old Ford Garage, and conclude that all Model A's used 18" tires.


About 2 months ago, the same kind of subject came up on the Model T form. The subject was, Ford did not use shims in his rods, and mains. They said the line didn't have time to mess with shims, they just run the motors in after they were built.


So, how did they come to a conclusion like that. Well, one guy had a Ford drawing for a Model T Rod, and two call themselves engine builders, and it did NOT show the shim in the rod drawing L.O.L., so there conclusion was, Model T's did not have main, or rod shims.


Ford made drawings for every part of his cars. The reason the Brass shims were not on the Rod drawing is the shims have there own drawings, and there own part Number. DA. But, they insist not, and there are about ten of them, stick together, right, or wrong.


Brass is not the cheap metal, it is the steel, that is. Price some, some time A 8X24, my cost is about 275.00 We have always used aircraft quality Brass. McMaster-Carr has sheets, the same size, around, 50.00, but is not the same stuff we use, but it will work fine. The only thing now, that kind of brass is glued together, and has to be flamed to get it apart.


Now, for the old wives tale. The biggest reason that many people say the brass is to soft, and when tightened, makes a crease, or groove, is a person that don't know, telling other people.


The reason for the crease, or groove in a shim is because, the Guy that is using them don't know how the make two part lines perfectly straight.


Brass will not mark, if the job is done right, and brass will not compress, or mark as long as the meat in your sandwich has two flat pieces of Bread.


And thank you for your kind Post, Mr. M, who ever you are.


Herm.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Thank you, Mr. Growley.


The Guy you referred to in your post, found a set of Model A shims, made with steel in a Ford Garage one time and came to his own conclusion that is what Ford used in his Motors.


That would be like finding a NOS 18 " tire in an old Ford Garage, and conclude that all Model A's used 18" tires.


About 2 months ago, the same kind of subject came up on the Model T form. The subject was, Ford did not use shims in his rods, and mains. They said the line didn't have time to mess with shims, they just run the motors in after they were built.


So, how did they come to a conclusion like that. Well, one guy had a Ford drawing for a Model T Rod, and two call themselves engine builders, and it did NOT show the shim in the rod drawing L.O.L., so there conclusion was, Model T's did not have main, or rod shims.


Ford made drawings for every part of his cars. The reason the Brass shims were not on the Rod drawing is the shims have there own drawings, and there own part Number. DA. But, they insist not, and there are about ten of them, stick together, right, or wrong.


Brass is not the cheap metal, it is the steel, that is. Price some, some time A 8X24, my cost is about 275.00 We have always used aircraft quality Brass. McMaster-Carr has sheets, the same size, around, 50.00, but is not the same stuff we use, but it will work fine. The only thing now, that kind of brass is glued together, and has to be flamed to get it apart.


Now, for the old wives tale. The biggest reason that many people say the brass is to soft, and when tightened, makes a crease, or groove, is a person that don't know, telling other people.


The reason for the crease, or groove in a shim is because, the Guy that is using them don't know how the make two part lines perfectly straight.


Brass will not mark, if the job is done right, and brass will not compress, or mark as long as the meat in your sandwich has two flat pieces of Bread.


And thank you for your kind Post, Mr. M, who ever you are.


Herm.

Thank you for the tutorial. I like to think that I am not too old to learn.
And thanks for taking the time to explain something that I thought I had right. Thanks again for your time and patience.
Chet