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Old 10-12-2018, 09:03 AM   #1
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

We are exploring a fairly rough clutch chattering situation on a vehicle that has been mechanically restored prior to this person owning the vehicle. Initially we removed the transmission thinking we would see a worn pilot or main drive gear end that engages into the pilot bearing. All of that appears to be new and not the culprit. The flywheel has been converted to the V-8 clutch style P/P and has a new pilot bearing. We just indicated the housing and it is between 0.004" - 0.005" with the majority of the run-out on the lower portion. Not sure how much the physical weight of the transmission would lessen that amount (-if any) when it is installed.


The flywheel face still has the grinder marks, and although they are a little rougher than what most would like by today's standards, it does appear the clutch is engaging uniformly for the most part and probably not the culprit. The flywheel face appears to have approximately 0.008"-0.009" of run-out in it and was indicated on the outermost portion of the flywheel face near the pressure plate holes. I suspect this was introduced when the flywheel was machined, HOWEVER I also do not know if this much run-out is really a problem either. I know there has been a number of something like 0.005" maximum runout for a flywheel offered numerous times here however if I recall correctly, that number is taken as a spec designed for the multiple-disc clutch and may or may not necessarily be applicable for the 6375B flywheel.


So where my question(s) would be is exactly how much flywheel face variance/runout is acceptable before it would actually give a problem? Why I am asking for opinions is kinda two-fold in that this flywheel has been balanced along with the P/P. If I were to set it up into the flywheel grinder to take off the 0.005" to true it up, then I potentially would need to rebalance the flywheel and P/P. Not a big deal if it were to cure the issue but it would be perceived as a wasted expense if not the culprit. Thoughts??
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:04 AM   #2
Patrick L.
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

Hmmm, interesting. My thoughts are that there is too much runout in that wheel. I've always thought that about .002" was the accepted number. How much more than that would cause your problem, I guess I'm not too sure. But, I think your .008" is way too much. That said, taking off the few thousands to true it up, I wouldn't think it would need to be rebalanced. Personally I would try that. I understand your predicament, time is money and we know how much time it takes to pull these critters back apart. I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear about the outcome.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:09 AM   #3
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

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Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
Hmmm, interesting. My thoughts are that there is too much runout in that wheel. I've always thought that about .002" was the accepted number. How much more than that would cause your problem, I guess I'm not too sure. But, I think your .008" is way too much. That said, taking off the few thousands to true it up, I wouldn't think it would need to be rebalanced. Personally I would try that. I understand your predicament, time is money and we know how much time it takes to pull these critters back apart. I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear about the outcome.


Ok, some additional food for thought.....


If I take 0.002" off of the flywheel, how much do you think that removed material will weigh? Using a clock face for a visual reference for this illustration, theoretically if I take 0.002" off the flywheel face, then I will be taking approximately 0.001" off from the 4 o'clock to the 5 o'clock position along with 0.001" from the 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock position and approx. 0.002" from the 5 o'clock around to the 7 o'clock position, ...or about 120 of the flywheel. The remaining 240 of the flywheel perimeter is not to have any material removed. While I can probably calculate the weight of that material which would be removed, by guess I feel like it would be at least 10 grams, ...which in the world of balance should/would be noticeable on a flywheel.


Since you mentioned recalling the 0.002" runout number, I went to the source to find exactly what that number is. On page 218 of the Service Bulletins, it mentions a number of 0.005" as the maximum number for being eccentric and without wobble. It states to measure this at the hub and rear face of the large diameter. The issue with this number is we are speaking of a multiple disc flywheel that is only been machined in the clutch hub (...in the center). So if the "wobble" is to be measured on the multiple-disc hub, it is only the distance to the outer perimeter of the flywheel. Therefore, if we use the 0.005" maximum of wobble on a multiple-disc flywheel, then on a regular Model-A flywheel that max number would likely double if the radius of the flywheel measurement were doubled too. With that mindset, then 0.010" would be the maximum number of run-out. Would it not??
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:42 AM   #4
Jim Brierley
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

Brent, I don't think that .008" would cause your chatter problem, nor removing it would be cause for re-balancing. I chased the same problem in my tudor. I replaced the float-o-motors with original mounts, helped a little but no cure. I later changed engines, with a fresh-ground flywheel and V8 PP, not enough improvement to speak of. The last change was to a diaphragm clutch, that helped immensely, for all practical purposes it cured it but occasionally (rarely) a bit of chatter could still be felt. I don't know why some A's chatter, but that's my story. BTW, changing to stock motor mounts did not affect the overall smoothness one iota!
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

I don't remember ever seeing a spec for an 'A' flywheel. The number I posted is a generally accepted spec for most stuff. Some are spec'd much tighter, [I have read some specs in the past that were less than .001".] If I cut one or had one cut I'd expect it to be within that number.
I don't think the 10grams could be considered to be removed from one spot on the wheel, it would be spread out. I think I'd still run it without balancing, but as said, it would be just time for me to remove it again if I had to. I wouldn't be very happy about it, thats for sure.
If the other measurements seem good including the finger heights, crank end play and motor mounts etc then I'm at a loss. Maybe the disk or pressure plate has a problem.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:02 PM   #6
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

Thanks Jim. This engine has stock rear mounts. By diaphragm clutch, you are speaking of a diaphragm pressure plate and not the fingered Borg & Beck style P/P, -correct??


The reason why we have not suspected the flywheel per se' is sometimes even pressure plates will have their plate release/engage at a slight angle that would be at least 0.008-0.010 or more.


Here is some of the talk we have had in-house. Theoretically, the transmission main gear (input) shaft should be running very close in concentricity since the pilot bearing and shaft end are very tight in fit, ...and there is a new bearing in the transmission case holding that end where the disc cannot jump out of centerline when it is engaged. It also appears the clutch housing is piloting correctly on the front bearing retainer however maybe something is off there? We have discussed mounting the clutch housing onto the bed of the mill and indicating/sweeping the flange however my mill table is only 9", so I am not sure how accurate we can measure with the equipment I have. I do have access to a surface plate that maybe we can check it with.


One other theory we have discussed is that clutch discs have some spline to shaft clearance to allow the hub of the disc to float on the shaft during pressure plate disengagement. I do not have a print on the transmission shaft nor on the clutch to reference sizes, but is it possible that with a few thou. of clearance in the fit that the clutch disc (-which likely is never balanced) can move slightly out of centerline enough to create just a small amount of chatter?
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

The foreign made new V8 clutch pressure plates have an extensive history of chatter on Ford Barn V8.

John

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Old 10-12-2018, 01:16 PM   #8
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:02 PM   #9
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

Brent,
Use a smooth, idling, second gear take off, for a Month. This smoothed out Minervas' clutch perfectly.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

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Originally Posted by john in illinois View Post
The foreign made new V8 clutch pressure plates have an extensive history of chatter on Ford Barn V8.

John
Interesting. Does anyone know why?

I have not experienced it with the flywheel conversions we have done. The only thing that I have heard is they possibly do not have enough clamping force on tall(er) geared vehicles.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

How many miles on this disk?? From where??
You might try contacting : Fort Wayne Clutch, and try a new disk. FWIW JMO
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

If your flywheel mounting surface and clutch face surface are not parallel its going to chatter. Or if you have got high and low areas on the clutch face side of the flywheel the highs hit the disk first during the engagement and chatter.
No burrs on the end of the crank or under the flywheel holding it from mating together flat ?
I would surface it and not worry about and VERY small imbalance that it might create because driving ANYTHING with a clutch that chatters is NO fun
If you feel like doing the math a 1" dia slug of steel 1/8" long is 13 grams
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

Flamingo is on the right track, Fort Wayne is excellent. Many clutch discs today are made with not enough "air gap". The gap I am speaking of the gap between the clutch disc itself and the friction material. There is a marcel spring between the disc and the friction material which is there to "soften/dampen" clutch engagement, preventing chatter. Good friend built an A with a flathead and 5speed. Chattered so bad he could not drive it. Called Fort Wayne, they sent a new clutch disc and all is well.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

I agree with some as to the disc possibly causing the chatter. If a disc became overheated and weakened the torsional springs or if the springs were never up to tension in the first place, I would want to try a different disc. I was under the impression that a clutch disc should be included in the balancing job when doing the pressure plate and flywheel. If you have ever driven a vehicle with an oil or grease soaked disc you know how they can chatter.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

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I was under the impression that a clutch disc should be included in the balancing job when doing the pressure plate and flywheel.
The disc ends up in a different position every time the the clutch is engaged. How would it be done to balance it with the PP and flywheel?
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

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Originally Posted by robib View Post
Flamingo is on the right track, Fort Wayne is excellent. Many clutch discs today are made with not enough "air gap". The gap I am speaking of the gap between the clutch disc itself and the friction material. There is a marcel spring between the disc and the friction material which is there to "soften/dampen" clutch engagement, preventing chatter. Good friend built an A with a flathead and 5speed. Chattered so bad he could not drive it. Called Fort Wayne, they sent a new clutch disc and all is well.
I have dealt with Ft Wayne clutch on numerous occasions, and you both are correct on their expertise.

I will do some research on this 'air gap' that you are mentioning.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

I'm no expert on this issue but I do recall reading about someone who was experiencimg a similiar issue. Everything was new and within tolerance. They were able to resolve the issue and the culprit was a poor reproduction clutch disk.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

I have the same thoughts as Bill W and a couple of others to try another clutch disc. I had a flywheel from a prominent machinist that was .022 off, that a local machinist was able to get milled down to .012 face differential and it was not a problem. Dont recommend it, but it drove fine. (It was also out of round, but was able to balance that out.)
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

There are two .010 horse shoe shaped brass shims that install in the two ears of the clutch housing where it attaches to the rear of the engine block and where the accelerator mechanism is installed. Quite often they are found missing and will throw off the alignment of the transmission to the clutch. Also the thickness of the gasket that installs between the block and the clutch housing are all over the map, depending on the supplier, and is also a factor. The shims and the gasket should be in harmony with each other. The cardboard gasket should be slightly thicker than the metal shim in order to align the housing correctly.


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Old 10-13-2018, 05:22 AM   #20
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Default Re: Clutch Chatter & Flywheel run-out

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Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON View Post
Brent,
Use a smooth, idling, second gear take off, for a Month. This smoothed out Minervas' clutch perfectly.
Bill W.[/B][/B]
I think Bill is on to something here. I have also had the experience of
a new disc and pressure plate needing some wear to work smoothly. It was mentioned that the flywheel had grinding marks. When a good working clutch is taken apart the surfaces will be polished smooth. Chattering is caused by the surfaces trying to grab instead of slipping until the clutch is fully engaged. Compatability of the surface finish and the lining material is critical to smooth operation much like disc brake rotors. I would try to improve the finish on the flywheel and pressure plate and clean well and break it in like Bill said.
As someone that has worked on alot of stuff over the years I have to say you can really make yourself crazy if you get too carried away with dial indicators and micrometers and such. These cars are very simple and can tolerate alot of runout or imbalance and still function pretty well. Most problems like this ultimately trace back to china and subpar aftermarket parts.
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