So, ...how many Model-As can actually do the 'Three S's reliably?

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Mitchell overdrive shifter

Thats where the wizards are controlled..know why a mitchell is expensive? Its worth it

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by WHN

I am a little confused?

Are we saying a car has to be completely restored to show quality to be considered a safe daily driver?

I don’t call our car restored, just well maintained as you would your modern car.

Enjoy.

Hmm, If we maintained an A as we do our modern cars, it would quickly become useless yard art! My VW Diesel (what a sweet little engine!) gets an oil change every 10,000 miles. There is nothing to grease, never have to adjust the brakes, etc. Most, if not all, gas cars have 100,000 mile spark plugs. No points to adjust and replace. No carburetors to adjust and rebuild. No need to repack wheel bearings. And the list goes on.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Hmm, If we maintained an A as we do our modern cars, it would quickly become useless yard art! My VW Diesel (what a sweet little engine!) gets an oil change every 10,000 miles. There is nothing to grease, never have to adjust the brakes, etc. Most, if not all, gas cars have 100,000 mile spark plugs. No points to adjust and replace. No carburetors to adjust and rebuild. No need to repack wheel bearings. And the list goes on.

Following the manufactures recommended services. 1929 oil change 500 miles, 2020 oil change 7,500 miles.

Whether a 2020 Ford Escape or a 1929 Model A Ford coupe, if you maintain the car correctly, as per the recommended service intervals, any car will last longer.

Our Volvo’s last for years and are past down to other family members. 200,000 miles is easy. 20 years old, not a problem.

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Hmm, If we maintained an A as we do our modern cars, it would quickly become useless yard art! My VW Diesel (what a sweet little engine!) gets an oil change every 10,000 miles. There is nothing to grease, never have to adjust the brakes, etc. Most, if not all, gas cars have 100,000 mile spark plugs. No points to adjust and replace. No carburetors to adjust and rebuild. No need to repack wheel bearings. And the list goes on.

Computerized machining processes and engine design made the oil slick down the middle of the road a thing of the past.Its truly amazing the advancement made..

[CarlG]

My Pickup will now pass the test of the 3 S's. That wasn't always the case, I've had some help along the way:

Start: Ron Kelley Touring engine
Stop: Randy Gross Brakes
Steer: F100 steering box by Dave Delmue

[DBrer]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

thanks for the video, thats refreshing to watch.

[Bob Bidonde]

Ernie, I already have a shortened Pittman Arm.

[JRShaw]

Brent - Thank You for posting a most enjoyable video for us. I am sure that we all could use some uplifting, positive moments in our lives.

Take Care, Stay Safe Joel

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I've not yet looked at Paul's video.
It seems to me that a vehicle doesn't have to be restored to be able to perform the 3 S's. If its been repaired properly it should handle those tasks quite well.

Originally Posted by katy

My '31 CCPU was refurbished, not restored. It can start, steer and stop w/out any problems.

In reality, my first-hand experiences counter this. The intention of the word "reliably" does not imply that it can do it randomly.

Reliably should infer that between tune-ups or maintenance ops it should be able to immediately start and drive every time, -and on every day for the whole time between those maintenance operations. For example, it was easy enough for a Model-A to reliably go 5,000 miles between services (tune-up, brake adjustment, et/al). If the car were driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive day, that is roughly 5,000 miles, -or a little over 6 months. A new Model-A could easily do that. A well maintained Model-A back then could do that!

So how many 'restored' Model-As can be driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive days without the carburetor being removed & cleaned out, the ignition points files or fiddled with, the brakes adjusted, or the clutch adjusted, -or fluid levels (coolant, engine oil, transmission/rear end lube) replenished because of leaks? Most hobbyists if they are honest will tell you they often spend an hour or so with their 'restored' car just to get ready to drive it on a tour. This never happened back in the day. Now some will bark and say it is because we don't drive them every day. Maybe so, but my lawnmower only gets run once a week however I don't have to spend time before I use it each week either. Same thing applies with boats or motorhomes that are occasionally driven.


Paul's point (-and I agree) is that we all have seen (-time & time again) a car that is called 'restored' yet when purchased and driven some, it does not meet the criteria of a "Restored vehicle" (-returned to a condition equal or greater than when it was manufactured). Many/most of us here are the crème of the crop when it relates to maintaining our own Model-As, so this typically does not apply to our cars but then again, our numbers here are small in comparison to the number of hobbyists in the Model-A world. Therefore this is not really pointing the finger as us who are responding. Insurance companies are the ones that are setting the value of our vehicles based on the 'non-restored' cars on the market.

Again, it is my position that if someone cannot drive their Model-A for at least several thousand miles without the need to repair something (anything!!) that is related to it being operated just as Henry designed it to be, then somewhere in there will be something related to those three S's. Paul prepped his Model-A to be a reliable car that he could jump in and go anywhere at a moments notice without any work needing to be done beforehand.

.

[KGBnut]

Brent,

Your reputation for quality is well known here, and I love Paul's videos (although I haven't watched this one yet). I consider myself a fair hobbyist mechanic. I think I have done a pretty good job going through my car mechanically. I don't pretend that it is perfect, but she does everything she is suppose to do, and I feel safe running in modern traffic.

With that in mind, can you clarify the difference between "repaired" and "restored" in this context?

I genuinely respect your opinion.

Ken

[KGBnut]

Sorry... that is what I get for being called away in the middle of typing....

You actually answered my question in your last post, but I didn't see it.

Ken

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by KGBnut

With that in mind, can you clarify the difference between "repaired" and "restored" in this context?

I think Brent's arguing that to restore a given component or subsystem should mean to bring it reasonably close to the factory specs, while to repair that subsystem can mean that you simply "got it working," where the standard for that subsystem's performance and reliability can be quite subjective.

[Kurt in NJ]

At this point I consider my car 80%, I think nothing of jumping in and putting 100 miles on it, probably wouldn't even open the hood before going, it's 50 years since restoration and it's due again in many aspects, I have never won any show trophies , do have a blue ribbon at a show I drove over 1500 miles to.
In my local area I got to drive a couple of cars that won many best of show trophies, they were scary to drive at 35, always arrive at show on trailer.
What always made me wonder is the phrase "it's just a driver", usually used in conjunction with a comment "I don't need show car parts " when told they need new parts like working shocks or steering parts.--- my thoughts are that a "driver" needs the best mechanical parts

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by WHN

Our Volvo’s last for years and are past down to other family members. 200,000 miles is easy. 20 years old, not a problem.

You must not drive in the snow much. We do, and our cars literally dissolve in 12-16 years. The last pickup rotted out the bed, spring shackles, and cab mounts. The last Subaru rotted out front suspension parts and the engine X cradle, along with serious body rot. The Toyota pickup before that rotted out most of the frame, so much so one wheel slipped aft and almost decoupled the drive shaft.

[wwirz]

My 1930 Tudor can stop and steer without an issue. It starts easily, except when the condenser goes bad. I know many have problems with the condenser. I have gone through 4 of them in 6 months. I plan on mounting mine external of the distributor next year and using a more modern condenser. My A runs good too.....40 MPH...no issues.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

You must not drive in the snow much. We do, and our cars literally dissolve in 12-16 years. The last pickup rotted out the bed, spring shackles, and cab mounts. The last Subaru rotted out front suspension parts and the engine X cradle, along with serious body rot. The Toyota pickup before that rotted out most of the frame, so much so one wheel slipped aft and almost decoupled the drive shaft.

You have to wash the car in the winter.

Talk about snow! We lived in central New York for 25 years. Drove to Syracuse every work day. Our 1976 Volvo DL245 had some rust on it in 1986 when we traded it in, but from than until now, no rust problems on any of our cars. Our 2009 XC70 is now with our daughter in Saratoga Springs, New York. No rust yet. Nine Volvo’s, only one showed any rust.

You don’t know what winter snow is until you live in Up-State New York.

126 inches of snow last year in Syracuse. 67 days of measurable snow.

Enjoy.

[Mister Moose]

200-250 inches, Killington VT. There is no place to wash the car. You go for weeks on end driving through salt laden slush or snirt multiple times a day. I'll be driving in it tomorrow. We've seen 6" of snow in late May, and 3rd week in October. Pretty sure I know what winter is.

And speaking of which, I've been studying car wash underspray. I have yet to find a decent one. Many are wimpy single directional, single spray bar maybe 2/3 the width of the vehicle, if that. The robototron ones that circle the vehicle seem to have no underspray, even though it's an option.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

200-250 inches, Killington VT. There is no place to wash the car. You go for weeks on end driving through salt laden slush or snirt multiple times a day. I'll be driving in it tomorrow. We've seen 6" of snow in late May, and 3rd week in October. Pretty sure I know what winter is.

And speaking of which, I've been studying car wash underspray. I have yet to find a decent one. Many are wimpy single directional, single spray bar maybe 2/3 the width of the vehicle, if that. The robototron ones that circle the vehicle seem to have no underspray, even though it's an option.

Great ski area. They make a lot of snow there.

Town of Killington’s average natural yearly snowfall is listed as 93 inches.

Syracuse is listed as one of the three snowiest cities in the US. Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse. Tug Hill, just north of Syracuse, is one of the snowiest places in North America. 400 plus inches of snow.

Have a safe trip to Killington. If your skiing, be safe.

Enjoy.

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by WHN

Great ski area. They make a lot of snow there.

Town of Killington’s average natural yearly snowfall is listed as 93 inches.

Syracuse is listed as one of the three snowiest cities in the US. Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse. Tug Hill, just north of Syracuse, is one of the snowiest places in North America. 400 plus inches of snow.

Have a safe trip to Killington. If your skiing, be safe.

Enjoy.

Places like Killington, Stowe, Jay, aren't cities, so they don't show up on your list. FYI, Jay claims 355", which I know Tug Hill still gets more, but Jay has, you know, vertical. I don't know your source for Killington snowfall, but even for the town hall in the river valley, it looks very low. Snowfall in VT is elevation dependent, so where I am and where I drive to daily is way more snow. Many days it is raining in Rutland sometime even raining at the town hall, and snowing on the mountain. We have days when it's raining at 2,000 ft and snowing at 2,600 ft. Most days mid winter you want to wash the car, but if you drive to Rutland to wash the car and stock up on groceries, the car will be coated back with salt and slush before you get home.

I've heard of Tug Hill. And I have been to Syracuse many times. Too bad there's no mountains there. I notice the Syracuse Ski Club is in Granville VT... not Tug Hill.

[Licensed to kill]

[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;1960799]In reality, my first-hand experiences counter this. The intention of the word "reliably" does not imply that it can do it randomly.

Reliably should infer that between tune-ups or maintenance ops it should be able to immediately start and drive every time, -and on every day for the whole time between those maintenance operations. For example, it was easy enough for a Model-A to reliably go 5,000 miles between services (tune-up, brake adjustment, et/al). If the car were driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive day, that is roughly 5,000 miles, -or a little over 6 months. A new Model-A could easily do that. A well maintained Model-A back then could do that!

So how many 'restored' Model-As can be driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive days without the carburetor being removed & cleaned out, the ignition points files or fiddled with, the brakes adjusted, or the clutch adjusted, -or fluid levels (coolant, engine oil, transmission/rear end lube) replenished because of leaks? Most hobbyists if they are honest will tell you they often spend an hour or so with their 'restored' car just to get ready to drive it on a tour. This never happened back in the day. Now some will bark and say it is because we don't drive them every day. Maybe so, but my lawnmower only gets run once a week however I don't have to spend time before I use it each week either. Same thing applies with boats or motorhomes that are occasionally driven.

I don't follow what all of that has to do with the 3 S's. A car can leal like a sieve from every seal, windows won't roll down, and be full of bondo but still "
start, stop and steer" perfectly if that was the owners priority. While it's true that VERY few would ignore all these issues and put the 3 S's in top condition but the pint is that they are not really related.

Paul's point (-and I agree) is that we all have seen (-time & time again) a car that is called 'restored' yet when purchased and driven some, it does not meet the criteria of a "Restored vehicle" (-returned to a condition equal or greater than when it was manufactured). Many/most of us here are the crème of the crop when it relates to maintaining our own Model-As, so this typically does not apply to our cars but then again, our numbers here are small in comparison to the number of hobbyists in the Model-A world. Therefore this is not really pointing the finger as us who are responding. Insurance companies are the ones that are setting the value of our vehicles based on the 'non-restored' cars on the market.

That's not the definition of "restored". "restored" does not include "greater than" when out was manufactured. If you make something "greater than when it was manufactured" it's "modified" or "hot rodded" depending on the modification.

Again, it is my position that if someone cannot drive their Model-A for at least several thousand miles without the need to repair something (anything!!) that is related to it being operated just as Henry designed it to be, then somewhere in there will be something related to those three S's. Paul prepped his Model-A to be a reliable car that he could jump in and go anywhere at a moments notice without any work needing to be done beforehand.

.

Not sure what "several thousand miles" means exactly but how many miles of warranty do you provide on your restorations?. New cars come with MANY thousand mile warranty (50,000??). I think I know where you are coming from but I don't subscribe to the notion that a car has to be restored down to the last bolt to be safe and reliable. I Do agree that sellers like to throw the word "restored" around pretty freely and that few cars are actually TOTALLY restored and understand why that would bother those that actually DO do complete restorations, I'm not yet convinced that a COMPLETE restoration is required for a very safe and reliable car or that a complete restoration guarantees a safe and reliable car. Even with all of todays technology, manufacturers will turn out a turd once in a while that just can stay out of the shop from brand new.