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Old 09-01-2022, 09:36 AM   #1
P.S.
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Default In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

In case someone is interested in more facts- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_G1AAkefQ

The first question is the one I'm referring to. This was recorded a few days ago, while the previous thread was still open.
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Old 09-01-2022, 11:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Truer words at the 9:45 timeline were never spoken!!


Again, I support both sides equally in this and hope only positives result for everyone involved.
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Old 09-01-2022, 12:31 PM   #3
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Truer words at the 9:45 timeline were never spoken!!


Again, I support both sides equally in this and hope only positives result for everyone involved.
I echo your statement.
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Old 09-01-2022, 01:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Yeah, no one is blameless in this situation.
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Old 09-01-2022, 01:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

I wholeheartedly agree with Brent’s comment.
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Old 09-01-2022, 02:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

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Old 09-01-2022, 02:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

I have been watching Paul's videos since 2019. I like his honesty and he doesn't appear to gloss things over. Hindsight is always 20/20, I'm sure everyone knows that. But to send the blocks back without letting his viewers know there was/is a problem wouldn't be fair to anyone. And the only way to improve is to know there's a problem in the first place, otherwise things stay static.

The internet, forums such as this, and online videos are a fickle and cruel monster, giving everyone a platform to bombast from. Unfortunately that's the world we live in.

Any industry with a product to sell has issues; Henry Ford was no exception, and he had most of his parts produced in-house, not 7000 miles away.

I met Mr. Burtz and Paul Shinn in Kerrville. I like both of them, and support them both in their efforts. But to make wild unfounded claims as Burtz did was below the belt for a professional, and he definitely made it personal for many.

As I've said before; when the time comes for a new block I want a Burtz block, and hope the QC issues are ironed out long before this time.
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Old 09-01-2022, 03:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

What was the wild unfounded claim?
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Old 09-01-2022, 03:51 PM   #9
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That alcohol had something to do with the issues. I don't think that was fair.
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Old 09-01-2022, 05:54 PM   #10
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Link is not working for me
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Old 09-01-2022, 07:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S. View Post
In case someone is interested in more facts- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_G1AAkefQ

The first question is the one I'm referring to. This was recorded a few days ago, while the previous thread was still open.
I hate to say it as a fan, but I don't know that video comes across any better or does you any favors. I think the biggest unresolved issue in all of this is that the manner by which at least some of those measurements were taken and presented in the original video were not done appropriately. This undermines the credibility to the claim that there are QA issues, which you and Tina repeat here and others have taken your word on at face value -- and more than ran away with in the original video. I've not yet seen mention that those cranks were remeasured using V-blocks or by loading them into the block itself and seeing if they are still out of spec. If you fear they may be dishonest and not demonstrate your actual blocks being measured properly, it would be a trivial effort to go back and do this yourself as has been described to see if it wasn't just the result of doing it wrong in the first place. I believe that would solve a lot by itself.

Not to defend Terry's actions, but his frustration does seem understandable. As popular as you are, coming out with a video calling attention to QA issues when the methods by which those QA issues were discovered may be suspect, would undoubtedly be frustrating as people are going blindly trust what you say.

Coincidentally, it does seem ironic that the builders guide mentions instances of people falsely believing similar issues to what your builder claimed, only to then later be proven incorrect.
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Old 09-01-2022, 11:38 PM   #12
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Paul,

The biggest Issue I had with the original video was how the crank was measured. Many others also had the same concern.

After seeing how the crank was measured and seeing what appeared to me as a very disorganized shop, I questioned everything the machinist said. I have been in shops that appear to be very disorganized that put out excellent work and perhaps this is the case here but often it is not.

I do not know your mechanist and do not know the reputation of his shop but to me, he came off as essentially saying you have to sink a lot of additional money into the Burtz components in order to have a decent engine. To me, your mechanist's comments appeared to be misleading and that is what got Terry all upset, however, the comment Terry made about the beer was completely uncalled for.

I think a well thought out video about what is involved in completing a Burtz engine would be of interest to a lot of Model A owners. Starting with taking it out of the box, measuring everything, doing the prep on the block and other components etc and ending up with an engine running on the test stand. Of course, this would include any issues that came up and how they were resolved. Perhaps, between you and Terry, such a video can be made.

As a professional engine builder having completed 7 of these engines, I have not found the degree of problems that were pointed out in your video.

My observations.

Chris W.

Last edited by CWPASADENA; 09-01-2022 at 11:39 PM. Reason: TYPO
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Old 09-02-2022, 01:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

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Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
Paul,

The biggest Issue I had with the original video was how the crank was measured. Many others also had the same concern.

After seeing how the crank was measured and seeing what appeared to me as a very disorganized shop, I questioned everything the machinist said. I have been in shops that appear to be very disorganized that put out excellent work and perhaps this is the case here but often it is not.

I do not know your mechanist and do not know the reputation of his shop but to me, he came off as essentially saying you have to sink a lot of additional money into the Burtz components in order to have a decent engine. To me, your mechanist's comments appeared to be misleading and that is what got Terry all upset, however, the comment Terry made about the beer was completely uncalled for.

I think a well thought out video about what is involved in completing a Burtz engine would be of interest to a lot of Model A owners. Starting with taking it out of the box, measuring everything, doing the prep on the block and other components etc and ending up with an engine running on the test stand. Of course, this would include any issues that came up and how they were resolved. Perhaps, between you and Terry, such a video can be made.

As a professional engine builder having completed 7 of these engines, I have not found the degree of problems that were pointed out in your video.

My observations.

Chris W.
I had actually started doing that with my build. I'm a nobody with nothing on my youtube channel except some track day events, but I figured it'd be worth throwing out there. I did everything at home in the garage with the exception of having it cleaned. I recorded hours of video documenting the unboxing, inspecting everything, initial thoughts, all the way through discussing my parts choices and the various ways of building the block. I got all the way through the short block assembly and went to start editing and found my go pro nuked over half of my content from shortly after unboxing to installing the valves.
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Old 09-02-2022, 03:48 AM   #14
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Yeah, the $10,000 or $8,800 was a bit of a heart stopper.

The thing is, we don't know what the acceptable tolerances are to know when there is a problem or not.
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Old 09-02-2022, 04:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

typo
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Old 09-02-2022, 04:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
Paul,

The biggest Issue I had with the original video was how the crank was measured. Many others also had the same concern.

After seeing how the crank was measured and seeing what appeared to me as a very disorganized shop, I questioned everything the machinist said. I have been in shops that appear to be very disorganized that put out excellent work and perhaps this is the case here but often it is not.

I do not know your mechanist and do not know the reputation of his shop but to me, he came off as essentially saying you have to sink a lot of additional money into the Burtz components in order to have a decent engine. To me, your mechanist's comments appeared to be misleading and that is what got Terry all upset, however, the comment Terry made about the beer was completely uncalled for.

I think a well thought out video about what is involved in completing a Burtz engine would be of interest to a lot of Model A owners. Starting with taking it out of the box, measuring everything, doing the prep on the block and other components etc and ending up with an engine running on the test stand. Of course, this would include any issues that came up and how they were resolved. Perhaps, between you and Terry, such a video can be made.

As a professional engine builder having completed 7 of these engines, I have not found the degree of problems that were pointed out in your video.

My observations.

Chris W.
Chris, I am not choosing sides here, but as an engine rebuilder myself who also does crankshafts in-house, measuring something between centers is not necessarily an inaccurate way. I shared with several people that Willie could have measured between centers and then rotated the crank within the centers by 90° and then remeasured to see if the errors repeated. If they did, then there is nothing incorrect about using centers. FWIW, I actually grind my cranks between centers on my machine and use a gauge to verify.

The issue for ALL of us is we likely chose sides the minute we started watching that video. We may not want to readily admit it, but deep down we all started subliminally looking for ways to pick something apart. Whether it was the way that Paul did the intro, or the organization of Willie's shop, -or who has/or doesn't have sufficient credibility ...we all formed some sort of an opinion not knowing all of the facts and circumstances. IMHO, unfortunately there is no one that actually won in this deal. People will only believe what seems believable to them. Some will always believe that Terry's engine is perfect out of the crate no matter what other people say. Others will always believe that further refinement is necessary. To me, this will always take on the same debate as choosing the proper oil to use in a Model-A.
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Old 09-02-2022, 07:02 AM   #17
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People made a substantial investment to bring the block to market.The videographer has a large audience. It’s incumbent that any indictment be correct for the videographers basic intent is to point out flaws in the product.. to use a method that’s questionable opens the videographer to legal action.. If I were him I’d think twice before sending back the blocks,if they measure out true it’s evidence against him..
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Old 09-02-2022, 07:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S. View Post
In case someone is interested in more facts- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU_G1AAkefQ

The first question is the one I'm referring to. This was recorded a few days ago, while the previous thread was still open.

Paul Shinn,

I am responsible for the QA on the manufacture of the blocks and want to address your concerns.

I am asking you to publish the inspection results from Willie on this forum so they can be compared to the results from the modern shop that we will be using, and they can also be compared to the engineering drawing requirements.

On the vertical surface of the cylinder block where the timing gear inspection cover mounts, there is a serial number. This number is applied after the final inspection at the factory and is unique for every cylinder block.

For each of your 2 cylinder blocks please list the serial number and provide a measured numerical dimension for every dimension that you believe to be in error. Your measured dimensions are very important for comparison purposes, and if a photograph can be provided, it would help us understand how the measurements were made.

The crankshafts are manufactured and numbered in small batches. If a crankshaft from a batch passes inspection, the entire batch is assumed to be good.

For your 2 crankshafts, please publish the batch number along with the diameters and runout for the 5 main bearings (20 measurements).

The crankshaft drawing has a tolerance on diameter, so each of the 5 main bearings could have slightly different diameters and still be within tolerance.

The drawing also has a requirement that all 5 main bearings be concentric within a tolerance. Can you publish a number regarding the concentricity of the 5 main bearings to each other?

We are also asking you to publish any other numbers that you have regarding the connecting rod journals, the seal rubbing surface, the timing gear mounting surface, and the diameter where the front pulley mounts.

Do you have any concerns regarding the connecting rods or any other parts from us?

We take quality assurance very seriously.

We need your published numbers (facts) so we are not spending money to measure undisputed dimensions.

Thank you, John Lampl
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Old 09-02-2022, 07:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: In case you want to know the whole story, or an update

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Originally Posted by jack backer View Post
............... to use a method that’s questionable opens the videographer to legal action.. If I were him I’d think twice before sending back the blocks,if they measure out true it’s evidence against him..

I think THAT is a bit much.

C'mon
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Old 09-02-2022, 07:52 PM   #20
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You run a business, invest your hard earned money and effort into it..and you get smeared by somebody with an audience that consists of your customer base?..
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