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Old 01-17-2018, 10:18 PM   #1
DJ S
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Default Main Bearing Peening

What temperature do you peen the main bearings at?
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:01 PM   #2
v8fordman
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

I don't check the temp before peening, but think it is a vital step in the pouring/rebuilding process. I normally do it while the babbitt is still hot, but have done it after it cools as well. I have never noticed any difference in the amount of compression.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

I peen the bearings as soon as I can after I strip off the molds. The Babbitt is softer and more pliable, keeps it pressed against the block while cooling. My molds are for 1 bearing, so I do them one at a time.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

I recently spoke to a guy who has been doing Babbit bearings for 40 years and has never peened them. Nor does he have failures. He drills dimples into the cast iron into which the metal runs and act as a key to prevent the bearing turning in he block. I read a lot here about peening them but what is the consensus on keying them in? I have seen engines where that was done when last rebuilt decades ago so I know it works.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

I don't care what you do for Key, even make it look like Swiss Cheese, babbitt will shrink away from the block. The holes in the saddles are there to keep the bearing from turning under load, nothing else. If you don't peen, the crank will do it for you. DO NOT Peen cold Babbitt, it will make hair line cracks in the side towards the block.

If after a pour and you see seams, dirt, air bubbles of certain kinds, do not try to cover them up with a torch, like all the videos on U-Tube.

It would be like a lake shore. Whether it be mud, sand, or rock. What ever is on the shore, is under the water. So what ever is in the Babbitt on the outside, it is worst against the Block.

Unless your Babbitt hammer is run by air, they should not be used, as they cover to big of an area to do any kind of a correct job.

Wow, 40 years with out Peening, and never had one come back, we have found that many Babbitt jobs that have come in that have lasted around 100 to 5,000 that went bad from other babbitters, the customer was so dam mad, they wouldn't darken their door way again. Some did take them back once, expecting a different result.

I have been pouring Babbitt, now for 54 years, and have never sent a block out with out Peening. Oh, and never a come back, on any kind of a bearing.

We have spun poured over 33,000 Model T Rods, and even more or Model A rods. Model B rods, not as many, maybe under 5,000.

If anybody thinks Peening is not necessary, I will Guarantee, my customers won't care.

Anybody that wants to babbitt, should get two books. The reprint of K.R. Wilson tool catalogs, Model T, and A. It gives a good description of why to peen, and many other things.

Another reason, and a big one is, any bearing that has any kind of space between the bearing and it's shell, oil will get between the babbitt, and it's saddle, and will have a harder time conducting away the heat from the bearing, as oil is NOT a good conductor of heat transfer.

Thanks,

Herm.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ken's Model T 016.jpg (23.9 KB, 212 views)
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:11 AM   #6
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

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Based on NOS caps we have, Ford peened with some kind of air powered device that likely used correct sized washers floating on a shaft. Vince Falter has pictures of the caps on his website.

Peening hot is a critical part of a proper babbitt job.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

You've all said to do it hot but how hot is hot? My first attempt of doing this, I hit the babbitt with the KR Wilson tool and the babbitt crumbled as it was far too pliable , perhaps because it was still too hot?

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Old 01-19-2018, 10:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Would the later caps that were tinned need to be peened? I didn't think they did. Wouldn't crumbled babbitt indicate the babbitt was too hot, burnt?
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Old 01-19-2018, 04:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
I don't care what you do for Key, even make it look like Swiss Cheese, babbitt will shrink away from the block. The holes in the saddles are there to keep the bearing from turning under load, nothing else. If you don't peen, the crank will do it for you. DO NOT Peen cold Babbitt, it will make hair line cracks in the side towards the block.

If after a pour and you see seams, dirt, air bubbles of certain kinds, do not try to cover them up with a torch, like all the videos on U-Tube.

It would be like a lake shore. Whether it be mud, sand, or rock. What ever is on the shore, is under the water. So what ever is in the Babbitt on the outside, it is worst against the Block.

Unless your Babbitt hammer is run by air, they should not be used, as they cover to big of an area to do any kind of a correct job.

Wow, 40 years with out Peening, and never had one come back, we have found that many Babbitt jobs that have come in that have lasted around 100 to 5,000 that went bad from other babbitters, the customer was so dam mad, they wouldn't darken their door way again. Some did take them back once, expecting a different result.

I have been pouring Babbitt, now for 54 years, and have never sent a block out with out Peening. Oh, and never a come back, on any kind of a bearing.

We have spun poured over 33,000 Model T Rods, and even more or Model A rods. Model B rods, not as many, maybe under 5,000.

If anybody thinks Peening is not necessary, I will Guarantee, my customers won't care.

Anybody that wants to babbitt, should get two books. The reprint of K.R. Wilson tool catalogs, Model T, and A. It gives a good description of why to peen, and many other things.

Another reason, and a big one is, any bearing that has any kind of space between the bearing and it's shell, oil will get between the babbitt, and it's saddle, and will have a harder time conducting away the heat from the bearing, as oil is NOT a good conductor of heat transfer.

Thanks,

Herm.
I neglected to say he pre heats the block before pouring. That would make a difference. It is clear you don't like it and what you say makes sense. I don't know the finer details of what he does so maybe he's being cagey.
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
I neglected to say he pre heats the block before pouring. That would make a difference. It is clear you don't like it and what you say makes sense. I don't know the finer details of what he does so maybe he's being cagey.
It is not a case of not liking what the does. It is a case that the science of babbitting a block dictates that babbitt needs to be peened. It is a basic fact of how a proper babbitt job is done. The metal is going to shrink and pull away unless you have a tinned surface to hold it in place.

While it is very difficult to find the facts on how to properly babbitt, it turns out it is mostly a clear science. To pour babbitt that is close to or the correct Ford mix you will need a 'hot' block. In reality you want the babbitt to solidify rapidly to form micro crystals. If it is heated up too slow or allowed to cool too slow large crystals will form and they will become crack formation sites. Just as you also can not have pre-existing babbitt in the pot and you must stir the babbitt a certain way before a pour and so on. You can learn most of this though reading some very technical articles and the aforementioned KRW catalogs.

A lot of people do babbitt, some know about the science behind babbitt. There is a lot of bad information out there. We learned the hard way back before the internet. We had guys that poured for 40 years tell us stuff that was very very wrong. That is why we seek out the science as best we can. Quite frankly, the information on babbitt is very difficult to learn.
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
Based on NOS caps we have, Ford peened with some kind of air powered device that likely used correct sized washers floating on a shaft. Vince Falter has pictures of the caps on his website.

Peening hot is a critical part of a proper babbitt job.
Kev, what was used for the Model T, was shown on P. TV. movie on Ford. It shows how they poured blocks. The Peening Tool, was like Wilsons, but was in a large Air Tool. It looked like they could do a block a minute.

Two to put the block down on the floor.
Two to put the Jig in place.
One to heat the Jig, all 3 bearings.
Two guys to pour.
Two Guys to pull the Jig.
One Guy to Peen the Babbitt.
Two to pick up the finished block.

Wilson says pour a block at room Temp., can't be done, unless you want to pick all the Babbitt off the ceiling, and out of your ears.

Wilson said, they do not heat the block as a step before they pour the block. That is the misleading truth. What they did do was put on a hot Jig, and heated each bearing place on the Jig with a very large torch. So what happened was the block was well warmed up. This is the way they did it on the Model T.

The Model A was a little more refined in being poured.

Herm.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

RE; Would the later caps that were tinned need to be peened? I didn't think they did.
I had this back wards, the early caps were tinned the later would need peening.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Not knowing anything about Babbitting but sure would like to share my experiences.
Just a CAUTION to anyone interested in trying to pour your own Babbitt!
In my early days of Model A-ing a friend and I decided to pour the mains in a block I had. No experience and not finding the "facts on how to properly babbitt" like Kevin in NJ mentioned. From what I remember we did not tin nor even pre-heat the block or heat the home made jig. Just heated the Babbitt and poured. BANG!!!!!! The Babbitt blew up when it contacted the coooolllllddddd block and jig. Blew up into my friends EYE who also had the ladle in his hand. Unbelievably, he calmly handed me the ladle and then I rushed him to a doctor (he would not go to the hospital). The doctor removed the Babbitt from his eye and covered it. Told my friend to use the prescription as prescribed and return in a week. Unbelievable that he had NO eye sight lose or ongoing problems with the eye. GOD had to be watching after him on that day!!
LESSONS learned: Use eye protection! Find out "facts on how to properly babbitt". And mostly NEVER, EVER try again!!!!!
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:06 AM   #14
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ S View Post
You've all said to do it hot but how hot is hot? My first attempt of doing this, I hit the babbitt with the KR Wilson tool and the babbitt crumbled as it was far too pliable , perhaps because it was still too hot?
I would not think it would crumble if too hot. Too cold I would think yes, wrong, old, or bad mix I also would think yes.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:45 PM   #15
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Back in the 60's I knew two guys that poured babbit as part of their routine automotive machine shop work. They used K.R. Wilson equipment and only did babbit work on Ford engines. When they later quit doing babbit the reason given was that the main bearing jigs were no longer usable after so many heating cycles with a torch and there wasn't enough volume to justify buying more jigs. Obviously, they preheated the bearing saddles.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

RE; I would not think it would crumble is too hot.
If the metal is over heated when melting it gets burnt. Once it goes past a certain temperature is is no longer usable. The molecule structure changes and not for the good.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

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Back in the 60's I knew two guys that poured babbit as part of their routine automotive machine shop work. They used K.R. Wilson equipment and only did babbit work on Ford engines. When they later quit doing babbit the reason given was that the main bearing jigs were no longer usable after so many heating cycles with a torch and there wasn't enough volume to justify buying more jigs. Obviously, they preheated the bearing saddles.
Only if they were using a cutting torch.

With out abuse, they will last Indefinitely!

My guess, there Babbitt was not lasting.

There is a well known Model A builder that did Babbitt, and inserts. I seen some of the work. He had to many Babbitt jobs come back, so now he only offers inserts.


Herm.

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Old 01-21-2018, 07:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Babbitt that is hotter then needed, will get, as we call rotten, only if left to cool by it's self you have to cool fast to keep the copper mixed.

Herm.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

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Babbitt that is hotter then needed, will get, as we call rotten, only if left to cool by it's self you have to cool fast to keep the copper mixed.

Herm.
Herm - back to his post, what would cause the babbitt to crumble when peening? Would the overheated "rotten" stuff crumble?
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:06 AM   #20
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

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Herm - back to his post, what would cause the babbitt to crumble when peening? Would the overheated "rotten" stuff crumble?
So years ago my brother was learning to pour (quite frankly I was like 11 at the time) he melted a pot of babbitt and poured. Then he chiped it out, remelted and poured again. Each time doing a post mortem on the babbitt, how well it filled the hole and such.

Now we know babbitt pouring is understanding crystal growth. You need small crystals for the babbitt to hold together. Repeated melting, slow heating and cooling, having existing crystals in the pot or ladle all lead to larger crystals. Well when you have babbitt that has had the parts separate and form larger crystals you get babbitt that crumbles easy when you beat it out.

I can take you to the old reheated babbitt and lop off a some pieces and you see these big crystals. I can do the same to a virgin babbitt and it will be harder to lop off and the crystals will be hard to see.

Guys have their ideas of how to pour babbitt. The guys doing it right have learned there is a science to a babbitt pour.

BTW, Read your early KRW catalog and they comment how their babbitt heater is special to create a fast high heat. They knew you needed to quickly get the babbitt melted to control crystal growth back then.

Types of babbitt also will work harden and break apart. If you have some lead around try bending it back and forth till it breaks. You will see some odd formations. In Europe they eliminated lead from everything. The report said any lead in babbitt is a place for micro cracks to start forming. So less lead is better. That was part of a very hard to read technical report.

Well I hope that gives some perspective. If you see broken babbitt look at the edge and notice the crystals.
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Old 01-22-2018, 02:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

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Herm - back to his post, what would cause the babbitt to crumble when peening? Would the overheated "rotten" stuff crumble?
Short answer Mr. Mike, is yes. " IF "
You leave the Babbitt to its own cooling.


Our tinning pot holds 3-1/2 to 4 gallon. These are automatically regulated, an we set the Temp. to 610 to 640. If it would get under 610, the tinning Babbitt would be sluggish to flow, pimply looking, and to cold to pour for a 100% bond, strong bond.

If over 650, your tinning is burnt, and weakened to no bond at all.

That is why those u-Tube Videos showing a Guy with a cutting torch heating a bearing is burning off spots of tinning, and the Babbitt will not be stuck, because there is no hear regulation! It is Temp., Temp., Temp.

The tinning pot Babbitt will let the copper fall to the bottom of the pot, but is nothing to remix.

Now, the pouring pot, we set to 950. At that Temp., the Babbitt does NOT separate. If you run the Temp. over a 1000, which is still workable, but it forms dross much faster, and you are wasting Babbitt.
The reason for 950 in our case is, as soon as you get a ladle full of Babbitt, the Temp. starts dropping, as it can loose 300 degrees in 4 feet, and then you would be pouring Babbitt to cold, and will not get the bond. I am talking Tinned caps, and rods here.

For those using a Pine sliver to check Babbitt Temp., should know that, this method is used on Lead Babbitt only. If used on Tin base Babbitt, it will explode in your hand long before it reaches the Temp. you need to pour.

Herm.
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File Type: jpg 133_3312.jpg (125.1 KB, 61 views)
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Herm, what is your opinion of the original thrust faces on the rear main, they always seem to be worn out and or broken.
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Old 01-22-2018, 09:20 PM   #23
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Herm, what is your opinion of the original thrust faces on the rear main, they always seem to be worn out and or broken.
In My Opinion:

Ford Factory bearings never had problems, T's, A's, or B's, and including the Babbitted Ford V-8's. Even the ones that raced with stock motors, and overheads. Sure, if you abuse an engine, anything is possible.

My brother-in-law told me he bought a 1934 Sedan, that was in, 1946 from on a farm sale cheap, only bidder. I don't remember the miles, but a lot. Never had a wrench on it. He said the car ran very well, he drove it hard for 3 years, but always took care of his stuff. He said it was one of the fastest cars he ever owned, and was always dependable.

So what made that Babbitt last, and many of the new pours don't.

It always comes back to the peening. Some Guys do peen, but not good enough or correct. Either Babbitt to cold, Babbitt Jig not filled out. Shaft area peened, but thrust not peened. Shaft area peened to much, or hard, and the Babbitt will push the Babbitt away from the block even more, as it makes the shaft area longer then you have block.

Many Guys use Kwik-Way Align Bores. They are slow, but are as good of a Align Bore as you can buy. I used one that was New Old Stock, many years ago. and I think I had about 15 of them at one time. But, you have to set them up correctly. The two middle bar bearings have to have the right amount of tension from a spring compressed by a collar. It has been a lot of years, but I think you pushed the spring down 1/2 inch, and tightened a bolt by hand, to hold the tension. If you do not do this, you get bar sag, and a bad bore job, so this keeps everything straight.

So, if your Align Bore has sag in the middle, you are going to have a lot of whip in the middle bearing that will eat at the Babbitt, until it opens it self up more then you would like.

So, Mr. Flathead, what does this have to do with the rear thrust! Not a Dam thing, so I will get back to that. LOL

Many of new Babbitt jobs that went bad, was because of the lack of Peening, but the rest of the machine work was so bad, it would have went bad anyway. On these jobs, what was noticed, was way to much end play. I remember one as .040 thousandths, less then a 100 miles. Although I cant say which went first, but that much clearance would have been beating the heck out of it, and pumping oil out the rear main.

The worst thing you can do is set the main clearance to tight. What happens is the first .010 thousandths will be come plastic from the friction, it can't help its self, so it wiggles its self free. So the first .010 of Babbitt has lost a lot of its strength, and good wearing surface.

Thanks

Herm.

Here are some Babbitt jobs that went bad in a very short time, I saved the caps, from the Guys I have heard of. for show and tell.

All well known Babbitters.

The first picture is good old Fords.
The 3 in the 3rd row, I don't know how they keeping away with this kind of work.

Fourth row, first two pictures is what caps looks like when your heating the cap to pour with a cutting torch, burnt tin spots, Babbitt can't stick.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 003.jpg (58.9 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 005.jpg (49.4 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 007.jpg (63.6 KB, 62 views)
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File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 011.jpg (58.1 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 013.jpg (53.8 KB, 60 views)
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File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 017.jpg (60.4 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 021.jpg (58.4 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 022.jpg (54.4 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 024.jpg (48.1 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 025.jpg (40.1 KB, 56 views)
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File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 029.jpg (55.1 KB, 60 views)
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

The topic of thrust surfaces and original Ford Babbitt reminds me of reading up on Model A powered Pietenpol airplanes. In his instructions for converting the A to aircraft use, Mr. Pietenpol himself said that the stock thrust surface worked fine. Think of that! All the propeller thrust is taken by the that thin ring of Babbitt, and it is a continuous load, not intermittent like a clutch is.
I have seen drawings by someone else that show a special bell housing with a radial bearing to take the thrust, as well as how to drill the crankshaft for pressure oiling to the rods. Do drilled A cranks break often? Ah well, in those days there were plenty of pastures to set her down when/if something broke!
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:46 PM   #25
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Thanks for all that good information!!
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:25 PM   #26
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

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Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
The topic of thrust surfaces and original Ford Babbitt reminds me of reading up on Model A powered Pietenpol airplanes. In his instructions for converting the A to aircraft use, Mr. Pietenpol himself said that the stock thrust surface worked fine. Think of that! All the propeller thrust is taken by the that thin ring of Babbitt, and it is a continuous load, not intermittent like a clutch is.
I have seen drawings by someone else that show a special bell housing with a radial bearing to take the thrust, as well as how to drill the crankshaft for pressure oiling to the rods. Do drilled A cranks break often? Ah well, in those days there were plenty of pastures to set her down when/if something broke!
I for one would not know, but I would think it wouldn't be any different then what would be used in a car ?????????

Herm.
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Old 01-23-2018, 04:00 PM   #27
Synchro909
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Herm, I've read and re read your posts on Babbitting. Ever thought of doing a book or DVD showing how to do the job properly? I'd buy one even if it is just for my own edification - I don't think I will ever actually do it myself.
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:35 PM   #28
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Main Bearing Peening

Mr. Synchro, I don't think so. I have already told you more then I know!!!!!

But, a book would be to big, and a video, way to long.

The problem being, if I rebabbitted any kind of say, rod bearings. There are many thing that could go wrong. You would have to show all of them, to show someone else, and if what could happen didn't, you would still have to try to make it happen, to show how to fix it, and what it looks like.

One of the problems in pouring, every set of different makes of rods pour differently, they have there own set of problems. A heavy rod pours different then a light one. The Temps., are NOT, all the same by far.

Inserts in mains are alright to pour, but inserts in rods should not, because the rod inserts have to be 100% up to the backing of the inside of the rod. If not, they will NOT last. We pour solid, and that takes care of that problem.


One of my favorite saying, I have gotten is when someone asks for a price, and then they say, " Why so much, all you do is pour it in there don't you " LOL

Thanks,

Herm.
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