Use of a MIG welder for other purposes?

[PeteVS]

I wound up bolting the frame for my Model A project together because I just wasn't getting any luck with riveting. I was TOTALLY unable to do them cold and went to the oxy torch. That heated them up good but by the time I got them placed, they had cooled. Then, I tried heating them in place. Only the tip of the rivet got hot and there was no expansion down in the hole when we hammered on them. Now, I'm wondering if I could hold the rivet in place with a brass bolt with a ground connection and place the tip of the welder on the other end. Should I be able to get enough current through the rivet to heat it properly in place? Also, could a MIG welder be used to heat metal for shrinking? (I talking about not having any welding wire involved.)

[JSeery]

Not sure I understand how a MIG would work without welding wire? There is no heat involved with the MIG handle, just wire and shielding gas. The heat is produced by the current flow from the welding wire to the surface being welded. It is the same principle as a stick arc welder, the wire replaces the stick. So the question (to me) sounds like can you use an arc welding to produce heat without a stick in it? Or can you use an arc welder to shrink metal if I don't use the stick? Just don't understand the question.

[Bob C]

I did something similar with my TIG welder.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Bob C

I did something similar with my TIG welder.

A TIG yes, but how would that work with a MIG?

[deuce_roadster]

I think you could do it with 2 people. There is a company called "Big Flats Rivets" and at Hershey I bought rivets and bucking tools and different tools that go in an air hammer to either make a waffle or rounded rivet end. If you use oxy acetlyene and heat the rivet slowly in place you can get the entire rivet red hot, at this point, have your helper buck the already formed head and then with an air hammer form the other end and if the entire rivet was red hot, the center would swell too. Call Big Flats and ask for their advice, I am sure you won't be the first to ask. They are in NY Phone:
(607) 562-3501 Good luck, Maybe Google them, their website may have instructions

I just went to their website and they have good instructions...

[uncle buck]

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http://bigflatsrivet.com/

[Smitty]

If doing frame rivets you need a 3x or 4x rivet gun, a friend holding a buck, an acetylene torch. I have riveted cross members in my Model A with excellent success. Yes see above post Big Flats Rivet will help you out.

Can buy used rivet gun (not air hammer, they are different) on the bay.

[JWL]

I might like to try making a carbon rod "tip" to screw on the MIG gun in place of the contact tip. I'm sure it would work up to a point.

[Tim Ayers]

I’ve read a few times that the rivets should be annealed first before setting them. The article suggested placing them in a fire wrapped up in tin foil.

[PeteVS]

I was thinking that if I could get enough current (amps) to pass through the rivet, it would get hot by resistance, not by an arc. I think I'll have to dig up some info on resistance of steel and see what I can find.

[Zeke3]

See post #29 in the attached link about using an arc welder to heat the rivet. I haven't tried it yet.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...hlight=cutting

[tubman]

I think this is a bad idea right from the start. It is completely outside of the function of a MIG welder and I don't see any easy way to make it work. Even if you could get it to work, I would thuink you would have a real good chance of doing permanent damage to you MIG welder. If you want to do something like this, get a stick welder (either a used transformer unit ot one of the new inverter units from China). I have one and it is a very well made unit. Then get a carbon arc torch; them suckers throw a lot of heat.

[Pete]

I wouldn't try it with a MIG welder. They are a constant voltage type power supply.
It can and does work fine with a regular stick welder. They are a constant current type power supply. All you need is a way to positively connect to the rivet. The connection needs to be able to pass the required current WITHOUT arcing.

[G.M.]

You have to be careful shorting out the contact tip of
a MIG welder. When shorted the amps go way up. How
high depends on the out put range the machine is set
at. This can burn out the transformer and possibly the
diodes. You can use as a power supply for chrome
platting, starting a car and other applications where a
DC power supply is required. G.M.

I made MIG welders in the 60's. I made the first ones
for body shops, it was called "Fender Mender" They were
sold by welding supply companies and didn't really catch
on until body and paint supplies started selling them. I
sold the company in 1980. They still make welders for
Snap-On. G.M.

[woodiewagon46]

Pete, I replaced the front crossmember and all four running board brackets on my '29 coupe frame with everything purchased from Big Flats Rivet Co. With the proper tools and some oxyacetylene heat, it's really not a big deal. Your trying to reinvent the wheel using a MIG welder.

[deuce_roadster]

Pete, did you read the instructions on the Big Flats website? The proper size rivet for the correct size hole is important.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

Pete, did you read the instructions on the Big Flats website? The proper size rivet for the correct size hole is important.

No, didn't read that but I have done steel riveting and am aware of the requirements.

The biggest job I was in on was riveting in a new fire box in a steam locomotive.
The rivets were 1 inch in diameter. It took 4 people to handle it.

[PeteVS]

Originally Posted by Zeke3

See post #29 in the attached link about using an arc welder to heat the rivet. I haven't tried it yet.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...hlight=cutting

That's post #22! Thanks! Looks like I have to see if a friend will loan me his stick welder.

[Tinker]

Thinking a tig welder would be better for rivets. But I guess tig is closer to a oxyacetylene torch.

[Tim Ayers]

What about one of the cheap spot welders from Harbor Freight?

[PeteVS]

I want to heat the rivets strictly by resistance. When I get the time, I'm going to see if I can heat a rivet using a 12 V battery with jumper cables and a couple of copper pieces that will fit the ends of a rivet. I have an old Sears starter current meter to measure the amps. I don't think that the HF unit has the oomph to do what I'm thinking of.

[Smitty]

So the front crossmember in my coupe had been replaced with a 29 unit, bolted in with 3/8 bolts. Scribed the correct location on the frame then put a copper plate behind the 3/8 holes and welded them up with a mig. Next we re-drilled the holes with proper size rivet holes and replaced with Big Flats Rivets. A friend held a buck and we heated the rivet with ox-actelene torch. Once cherry red shot the rivet down with 4-x rivet gun, took 2 heating's to get it set tight. That was 12 years ago, has not loosened a bit and cant tell the cross-member had ever been replaced. Not difficult, just take your time and do it right.

[Automotive Stud]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

I want to heat the rivets strictly by resistance. When I get the time, I'm going to see if I can heat a rivet using a 12 V battery with jumper cables and a couple of copper pieces that will fit the ends of a rivet. I have an old Sears starter current meter to measure the amps. I don't think that the HF unit has the oomph to do what I'm thinking of.

This all sounds like a bad idea. There are multiple posts here already detailing how to do it properly. I'd cut the bull and stick with what works.

[JSeery]

Keep in mind that is possible to blow up a battery with a direct short like this. I would at least isolate it in some way.

[Tim Ayers]

The more I think about this, for the small amount of rivets we are talking about, get a tote tank set up and use Oxy-Acetylene and do it right. Those "B" tanks should last long enough to do this job.

Why risk injuring yourself with some sort of gypsy rig set up?

[Smitty]

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Call Rivet Flats, they will tell you how to do it.

[JSeery]

Not sure how many have first hand experience shorting out batteries. When I was in the military I got the brilliant idea of touching a large wrench across a 24 volt battery. It blow a hole about the size of a nickel out of it! I learn a lot of things the hard way (as in the stupid way). On a race car in the early 60s only the ignition was connected to a 12 volt battery (push start car). We were hooking up a single tail light late one evening at the track. I got under the car and was just going to twist two wires together with my hand. Well it ending up being a short to ground and instantly melted the wires into my finger! Learned a number of lessons on that one and a respect for batteries. As a side note, the stories about how you can't change your finger print are dead wrong, mine was parentally changed that night!! So anytime I need remained about batteries all I have to do is look at my right index finger. I tend to be a slow learner on some things, but at least I end up to good reminders.

[RKS.PA]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Not sure how many have first hand experience shorting out batteries. When I was in the military I got the brilliant idea of touching a large wrench across a 24 volt battery. It blow a hole about the size of a nickel out of it! I learn a lot of things the hard way (as in the stupid way). On a race car in the early 60s only the ignition was connected to a 12 volt battery (push start car). We were hooking up a single tail light late one evening at the track. I got under the car and was just going to twist two wires together with my hand. Well it ending up being a short to ground and instantly melted the wires into my finger! Learned a number of lessons on that one and a respect for batteries. As a side note, the stories about how you can't change your finger print are dead wrong, mine was parentally changed that night!! So anytime I need remained about batteries all I have to do is look at my right index finger. I tend to be a slow learner on some things, but at least I end up to good reminders.

In the "I tend to be a slow learner" department, I have a galvanized metal sheet on my workbench top. Turned a 6 volt Optima upside down on the bench.....YIKES!!! No bodily injury, melted the posts, and $180 absolutely wasted!!

[JWL]

I have a similar faulty precaution story. Went to start my 8N and had no power. Remembered the cutoff switch and when I engaged it the ignition was on producing a small arc at the top of the battery. It sounded just about the same as .38 Special when the top of one cell exploded. What a mess!

[flatford8]

I was changing smoke detector batteries in my house, I put one of the batts in my pocket and my leg started to burn. My keys were in the same pocket and shorted across the posts...... Mark

[va t]

My Solar brand mig has a carbon tip adapter for heat shrinking along with directions for use. It works well. On a 47 Merc convertible I was able to free quarter window adjusters without damaging the paint in door jamb.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by va t

My Solar brand mig has a carbon tip adapter for heat shrinking along with directions for use. It works well. On a 47 Merc convertible I was able to free quarter window adjusters without damaging the paint in door jamb.

Interesting, never seen that.

[PeteVS]

Originally Posted by va t

My Solar brand mig has a carbon tip adapter for heat shrinking along with directions for use. It works well. On a 47 Merc convertible I was able to free quarter window adjusters without damaging the paint in door jamb.

Do you have a picture of the adaptor? Instructions?

When I was a kid, I spent a couple of summers working in my neighbor's ignition shop. The guys there had a big old screwdriver with a nut welded to the tip and a length of heavy wire with a big old alligator clip. The electrode from a spent "D" cell battery was inserted into the nut and held with a set screw. They used it to heat stubborn hardware or resolder starter armatures by grounding the piece to be heated to a six volt battery. The tool was connected to the battery and pressed against the piece. Worked nicely but it got too hot using a 12 V battery.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by va t

My Solar brand mig has a carbon tip adapter for heat shrinking along with directions for use. It works well. On a 47 Merc convertible I was able to free quarter window adjusters without damaging the paint in door jamb.

I'd be interested in see this setup as well, seems I have some things to learn about MIG welders! I have no idea how this could work short of using a completely different line from the machine.

My guess is it first gets setup like a stick welder and the adapter is to the stick welder part?