Starter question

[daveymc29]

33 fordor, 59AB. Runs well with 125# compression. Battery fully charged. Starts instantly when cold and refuses to restart until cold again. Push the starter pedal and there is a solid click but no rotation of the engine. Has done this for about 20 years now and I would like to offer the owner some practical advice. He has tried 8V and jumping with a 12V. Doesn't change. Suggestions. I tried a search and got kicked around back to the sign in.
Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[tubman]

My first response to this is to ask if the bracket that holds the forward end of the starter up present?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

33 fordor, 59AB. Runs well with 125# compression. Battery fully charged. Starts instantly when cold and refuses to restart until cold again. Push the starter pedal and there is a solid click but no rotation of the engine. Has done this for about 20 years now and I would like to offer the owner some practical advice. He has tried 8V and jumping with a 12V. Doesn't change. Suggestions. I tried a search and got kicked around back to the sign in.
Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Well, obviously (probably) something is too tight internally. But what?
Twenty years means little if the engine has few miles on it within that time frame.
I'd be inclined to remove the spark plugs rapidly while the engine is still hot and see if it turns over without their presence. That's not a 100% test but may answer with certainty if it is an internal engine issue.
I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that the starter has been PROFESSIONALY rebuilt?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

My first response to this is to ask if the bracket that holds the forward end of the starter up present?

What difference would this make when the engine is hot?

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Kube

What difference would this make when the engine is hot?

If the bracket is missing, the starter may become misaligned when it's hot due to differential expansion of the metal. I'm not saying it's the problem, just that one of the first things that should be checked is whether it's there or not. Back in the day, a lot of people left them off and a few of them had problems.

[George/Maine]

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I would guess the bushing at end of armature are worn time to pull and have fixed

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

If the bracket is missing, the starter may become misaligned when it's hot due to differential expansion of the metal. I'm not saying it's the problem, just that one of the first things that should be checked is whether it's there or not. Back in the day, a lot of people left them off and a few of them had problems.

And here I thought that bracket was incorporated due to excessive torque within the starter body. I didn't realize the starter itself would "bend" due to heat.

[tubman]

"Kube", I don't see why you have such a problem with the suggestion of checking for a bracket that is left off much of the time. Ford added it after a few years for what had to be some good reason. It's quick and easy to do and may just help.

[flatford8]

I’d do an “amperage draw” test on the starter, cold and hot and check battery and starter cable size. Check the grounds also..... Mark
P.S. 20 yrs. is a long time to put up with this problem. Good for you for trying to help!

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

"Kube", I don't see why you have such a problem with the suggestion of checking for a bracket that is left off much of the time. Ford added it after a few years for what had to be some good reason. It's quick and easy to do and may just help.

Hey, it just may. Still, I'd like an explanation as to how that heavy starter could possibly get hot enough to "move" and not allow the drive to engage.
I like to think things through prior to simply stabbing at stuff. That's just my way...

Oh, that "good reason" you refer to: The starters would on occasion break as the torque was so high. That bracket kept the body from twisting.

[daveymc29]

Sorry to have caused controversy. I will check the brace. I doubt it exists as I helped him replace the battery and install a rebuilt starter.about twenty years ago. By the time we finished the the engine was cold and started right up. I do not remember seeing any brace. I'm sure I never owned a Ford that had one so didn't know to look for it. I drive A's mostly and in younger days had several 40 Ford with none having any starter problems. Cars at a good old boys shop and we'll talk to him on Tuesday. I'll ask about the brace and also the hot and cold draw.Thanks to all and remain civil
Ace Mechanic,Dave Mc Arthur.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Sorry to have caused controversy. I will check the brace. I doubt it exists as I helped him replace the battery and install a rebuilt starter.about twenty years ago. By the time we finished the the engine was cold and started right up. I do not remember seeing any brace. I'm sure I never owned a Ford that had one so didn't know to look for it. I drive A's mostly and in younger days had several 40 Ford with none having any starter problems. Cars at a good old boys shop and we'll talk to him on Tuesday. I'll ask about the brace and also the hot and cold draw.Thanks to all and remain civil
Ace Mechanic,Dave Mc Arthur.

Hi Dave, You have certainly not created any controversy here. You've asked a good question and there are a few that are willing and able to help.
I'll work with you until this is resolved if you like. I tend to go at things very methodically. Typically, that's the cheapest and quickest method.

[JM 35 Sedan]

The bracket in question here was not originally used in production of the '33 Ford. That bracket became a production item in the late '30's, I believe in '39. However, it could have been added later. In addition to stabilizing the starter, that bracket also provided an additional electrical path for grounding of the starter motor.

Some other possible problem areas of the starter that could cause non rotation when hot would be:

1.) Poor armature winding soldered connection at one or more commutator bars. This might cause a high resistance connection when cold, and an open connection when hot, or....

2.) Brushes worn to the point of not making a good electrical contact at commutator when engine and starter motor are in a heated condition, or....

3.) Some folks become over zealous with painting a starter and/or oil pan, and actually cause a low conductivity grounding problem at the starter housing to oil pan interface. Make sure this area is free of paint for good conductivity.

[daveymc29]

Will have to check out the starter closely as it was "new rebuild" when we installed it from a local parts house believed to furnish good parts. That said I have purchased brake cylinders that had the fluid inlet hole bored up the bore so far that they would, and could, not function when the spring inside sent the piston back down the bore. The hole would end up on the wrong side of the seal. I cured that by putting a plastic spacer inside the cylinder so it couldn't move so far back into the hole. It worked but diid limit the amount of travel of the cylinder. Still running two on the back of my Model A with 39/42 hydraulics. (Came that way.)

[JM 35 Sedan]

"Will have to check out the starter closely as it was "new rebuild" when we installed it from a local parts house believed to furnish good parts."

But wasen't this 20 years ago??

[37 Cab]

When I got a starter from C&G a while back I also ordered one of those brackets. This was for my 37 21 stud. The bracket did not line up with an oil pan bolt so I assumed the 21 stud was not compatible with the bracket?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by 37 Cab

When I got a starter from C&G a while back I also ordered one of those brackets. This was for my 37 21 stud. The bracket did not line up with an oil pan bolt so I assumed the 21 stud was not compatible with the bracket?

I installed a starter support bracket on my 35 avatar with a basically stock 35 engine and starter. There were different style/design brackets available, plus I have encountered oil pans that had starter mounting holes clocked at different angles which required different support brackets. Not sure which design bracket C&G supplies.

[daveymc29]

Yes it was about 20 years ago that we put the starter in. Hasn't worked when hot before or since.

[Kurt in NJ]

check voltage at battery(center of battery posts, not terminal)
push starter (cold) read cranking voltage
go to starter, one lead on threads of starter stud, other slipped under cover band-case ground---crank engine

repeat hot --the voltage difference between battery and starter should be less than .5 volt if wires/switches good

another test---crank engine cold for 30 seconds, feel all wires and connections ---the hot ones are bad or weak connections, if you get burned touching one look there first

[37 Cab]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I installed a starter support bracket on my 35 avatar with a basically stock 35 engine and starter. There were different style/design brackets available, plus I have encountered oil pans that had starter mounting holes clocked at different angles which required different support brackets. Not sure which design bracket C&G supplies.

Thanks John. I didn`t know there was more than one. I will look into it.