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Old 05-19-2017, 07:27 AM   #181
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: New block

What Henry said!
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:15 AM   #182
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Default Re: New block

Tod, I have one comment and then a question.

So the comment which is actually quite obvious when looking at the Flathead bottom end. Basically logic tells me that the center main is carrying more than it's fair share of the load. After all it is influenced by both the front four and the back four cylinders.

It is my understanding that the old NOVI V8's of Indianapolis fame were 3 main bearing engines. Extra effort went into keeping that center bearing in place, round and cool.

If a performance Flathead needs any oiling modification at all I would be looking at extra oil to that center main to keep it cool.

The next part is more of a question pertaining to the type of block material you'll be designing for. I'm assuming this is a cast iron project. That would be best for the vast majority of consumers I would think.

It's only if you decide to foray into the aluminum world that I wonder if you might consider using PTWA to form the cylinder walls with the greatest possible bore diameter?

It is my understanding that PTWA is becoming commonplace both in original manufacturing and also "re"- manufacturing.

Just a thought I guess thinking out into the future should an aluminum block become a feasible project.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:53 AM   #183
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Default Re: New block

I prefer the 59 type block but if you go with the 8BA type, there needs to be some provision for the stabilizer rods on each side for 48 and back vehicles.
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:30 AM   #184
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Default Re: New block

All the blocks have the same basic profile at the rear with the exception of the half bell on earlier engines. Even the 8BA block has enough casting there but it's just not drilled for the rods. Keep in mind that the anti-chatter rods are a pre-war thing and weren't incorporated into the 59A block either but can be installed if needed. I probably should say that the provisions weren't incorporated into the vehicle frames since the block does have the bosses there.

Some of the 4-cylinder aircraft engines I maintain and overhaul have only 3-mains. The center main takes a beating but holds up pretty well as long as the engine is always assembled to new tolerances. These are 360 CID engines and they have an aluminum crankcase cast in halves. All the main bearings are pinned on these and the center pin is usually loose by the time they are due overhaul.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-20-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:49 AM   #185
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Floored View Post
Tod, I have one comment and then a question.

So the comment which is actually quite obvious when looking at the Flathead bottom end. Basically logic tells me that the center main is carrying more than it's fair share of the load. After all it is influenced by both the front four and the back four cylinders.

It is my understanding that the old NOVI V8's of Indianapolis fame were 3 main bearing engines. Extra effort went into keeping that center bearing in place, round and cool.

If a performance Flathead needs any oiling modification at all I would be looking at extra oil to that center main to keep it cool.

The next part is more of a question pertaining to the type of block material you'll be designing for. I'm assuming this is a cast iron project. That would be best for the vast majority of consumers I would think.

It's only if you decide to foray into the aluminum world that I wonder if you might consider using PTWA to form the cylinder walls with the greatest possible bore diameter?

It is my understanding that PTWA is becoming commonplace both in original manufacturing and also "re"- manufacturing.

Just a thought I guess thinking out into the future should an aluminum block become a feasible project.
Right now I am designing with iron in mind, of the same class as my Cleveland blocks and new Model A blocks. I was already planning full pressure oil to all 3 mains, as well as the cam journals and a smattering to the lifters.

I am thinking hard about design changes I want to make on the intake ports and the exhaust as I try to increase bore allowance.

in order to make better flow in the ports right under the valves, I was thinking of how I can eliminate the 1.031 valve guide and make the hole for smaller guides, which allows me to open up the port and change the geometry some. But, I need to think ahead to how I will machine the lifter bores. I may need to design a special tool to get that done, something I have had to do on other machining jobs.

It was asked that I increase cam tunnel size but no actual size was suggested. The stock radius is 1.10 where the lifter bores cut through. I'm wondering if an additional .09 would suffice. I would then add that .09 to the top side of the lifter bosses to keep the same length of lifter bore.

As I get deeper into my design I'm sure I will be posting about where I am and what input I can get back. I will probably show pictures of various areas so that people have an idea what I am talking about.

As it stands, I have the front pretty much modeled up and the crankcase, rear, decks, and cylinders. I will not do much with the top until I get the ports figured out.


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Old 05-20-2017, 09:10 AM   #186
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Default Re: New block

For the tappet bores, I'd imagine you would need a cutting head that could be fastened to a through shaft. It's doable but it might be tricky to get the finish bore. Might take several different tool heads for that operation.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:28 AM   #187
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimTN View Post
I prefer the 59 type block but if you go with the 8BA type, there needs to be some provision for the stabilizer rods on each side for 48 and back vehicles.
It may be that I'm wrong. I always believed that chatter rods were just a band-aid to cover the fact that Ford did not have a decent rear main seal.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:17 AM   #188
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Default Re: New block

The rods are just stabilizers to keep the whole drive train from moving around under rapid torque loads. That closed drive rear axle will push the whole engine around if the mounts get worn or deteriorated.
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:18 AM   #189
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Default Re: New block

Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.

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Old 05-20-2017, 11:23 AM   #190
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Default Re: New block

If you can offer blocks in the price range you are thinking, there should be no problem with sells!
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:29 AM   #191
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.

Tod
Tod, there is no other engine that as under served as the Flathead Ford. Many more people would use a Flatty if some of the quirks (i.e. Cracks and sealing problems) could be solved.

A new block will fill a huge void in my opinion. I'll be buying one too.
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:56 PM   #192
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Default Re: New block

Tod
Some folks may have a large stash of old blocks and may never need one in their lifetime. Then there are the other folks that have to scour the country for a crusty old boat anchor to find it cracked after they tear it down. I certainly don't think it's a waist of time.

We haven't had a person as serious about a project like this as you are and you have more where-with-all than any previous folks to actually accomplish it. It has been disappointing to see several outfits attempt this in the past 10 or 15 years with no real results yet.

I don't know if any racers would be interested since antique racing has rules about whether its OEM or not. Folks that do love the old flat motors like me would be interested. I like my stockers but I also like my hot rods. I'd rather bang a new one around than flog the hell out of an OEM one. Besides, I still have a set NOS standard size pistons that I may never get to use unless I completely sleeve an old block out. That stuff is getting expensive too. I probably would have purchased a French block if the damn things weren't all relieved!

There will always be nay sayers out there but you be the one that actually knows whether it's worth it or not.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:01 PM   #193
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Default Re: New block

I would like a new 21 stud, 36 LB pattern engine.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:06 PM   #194
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.

Tod
Where else are you posting? I find the internet negativity wearing.

My personal opinion is that a flathead block has a larger market than a 351C block, but that's just my perspective because racing seems to use windsor style blocks and cranks.
Your first post of calling it an 8BA put me off a bit, because the hot rod world seems to revolve around 59A blocks, but I understand what you are doing better now.

What is your timeline for a few hundred sold? I think you could sell a couple hundred 36LB replacements alone.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:12 PM   #195
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
Tod
Some folks may have a large stash of old blocks and may never need one in their lifetime.
That's an issue, and that may be a distorted picture. I bought 3 of those stashed blocks, 2 in complete "known good, running when pulled" condition, and one in "known to be good, stashed under the workbench 20 years ago, bored and honed but never used" condition. When cleaned and inspected as thoroughly as a modern build requires, all 3 were junk and beyond repair.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:19 PM   #196
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Default Re: New block

Great thread. Tod; amazing desire and work, sir.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:02 PM   #197
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Default Re: New block

Yoyodyne
I have two usable 8BA blocks and one that's cracked but repairable. Both usable ones will need bore jobs with substantial cuts in both so I know what your stating there. It's always a big ??? as to whether I'd get a good one or all are useless.

I've built several engines with what they call acceptable cracks in the center bolt bore of the deck and so far gotten away with it but it sure would be nice to be able to get one that is Friggin NEW! I wouldn't know how to act with no cracks, major cleaning, or major machine work to deal with. That's almost a wet dream!
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:03 PM   #198
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyodyne View Post
Where else are you posting? I find the internet negativity wearing.

My personal opinion is that a flathead block has a larger market than a 351C block, but that's just my perspective because racing seems to use windsor style blocks and cranks.
Your first post of calling it an 8BA put me off a bit, because the hot rod world seems to revolve around 59A blocks, but I understand what you are doing better now.

What is your timeline for a few hundred sold? I think you could sell a couple hundred 36LB replacements alone.
I posted on the Facebook Flat Spot page, Ford Flathead 1932-1953 forum, and here.

What is the major difference between the 8BA and 36LB?

I'd like to sell as many as possible, obviously, and I have no real time frame. 5 years?

Once I have the basic design I can alter it to do what will sell.


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Old 05-20-2017, 06:19 PM   #199
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Default Re: New block

The The LB block was the first major departure from the first generation. There are no ports for water pumps in the block. There are just ports for inlet where the engine mounts bolt on and form the inlet stub as part of the mount. The crank journals were set up to be replaceable. They made the first venting for the block at the oil pan rail. There is a lot of difference from 59 series and 8BA. These are desired for restorers of 35 and 36 cars or even earlier since they were the last pump in head block. One other thing to add. The mains were changed in 1935 so as not to have the bolt that went all the way through from the valve chamber.

You might scope out this thread since it has photos. It's the Official Ford Barn ID thread.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...5301&showall=1

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-20-2017 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:30 PM   #200
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Default Re: New block

AS for the lifter bores. Normally, we use Chevy valves when using a cam with more than .350 Lift. This is because you can't get the Johnson extra long lifters. The longer valve stem keeps the adjusting screw tight in the lifter. However, The smaller bass circle put's the lifter down in the bore so it 's difficult to adjust. So we cut the top of the lifter down a bit. as for the cam bearings. Yes alittle more meat in this area will allow it to be bored out for a larger dia cam bearing. This allows for a higher lift valve with out reducing the Base circle. I covered some of this in my book.
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