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Old 05-12-2017, 07:46 AM   #101
Daryl Middlebrook
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Default Re: New block

Tod,
Blueprints may be available from the Benson Ford Research cCnter. I am not sure but others on this forum will know for sure.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:59 AM   #102
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Default Re: New block

Tod, good luck with your project and thank you for stepping up to the plate to hopefully make this happen. I personally won't need a new block in what's left of my life time, but if we hope to keep future generations interested in the Flathead engine, someone's gonna need to make this happen.
When I rebuilt a '35, 21 stud engine, that had an early failure of a press-on fiber timing gear, I was told it was impossible to replace that gear without first removing the cam. I took this on as a challenge and successfully figured how this could be done and did it. This was nowhere near the challenge you will face, but the same principle applies, nothing is really impossible.
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:54 AM   #103
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Default Re: New block

There was a guy named "Ray" (user "Flat32") on the "Flathead Ford V8 ... 1932-1953 Forum" who has done a lot of preliminary work on this (cutting up blocks, making cad drawings, etc.). If Tod doesn't already know about him, he probably should. I don't go over there much anymore, and am not really familiar with most of the guys. Are any of you familiar with this guy? He has a steel full-fendered '32 with a fuel injected flathead (I think it's 268") that runs in the twelves, so he's got to know what he's doing. If no one else has better information, I'll try to track him down.

Last edited by tubman; 05-12-2017 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:58 AM   #104
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
6) Improve the intake port and bowl design for better flow. Think about press in bronze guides (like the flathead Cadillac) - instead of the guides we have today. They make a mess of the port floor and have a lot of slop in their fitment.
I'm not super familiar with flathead Cadillac but do they have more conventional smaller outside diameter valve guides?

In my opinion the main reason the Ford flathead had the large diameter guide was for access to machine the lifter bores. Installing the valves as an assembly was an added production bonus in my opinion.

Cadillac simplified the block machining by making the lifter bores removable, if I remember correctly.

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Old 05-12-2017, 01:20 PM   #105
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Default Re: New block

Cylinder heads are also somewhat of a limiting factor on bore size and some on overall width too if you still want things to look symmetrical utilizing OEM or aftermarket heads. Basically it just has to look good and somewhat original with them on there. If the heads are changed to fit better, the design may lose some of its popularity. That would put it back into a proprietary situation.

Valve bowls & port design have some limitations with the water jacket dimensions but a different way of machining for guides could be a big help in that respect. Some folks may prefer the OEM modular valve arrangement and some may not.

The Big Cad V8 is like a 337 in size. Having the exhaust come out the top simplified the block design but complicated a lot of other things too.

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Old 05-12-2017, 01:46 PM   #106
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Default Re: New block

Better minds than mine are involved here, but I think having extra metal in the intake port area while casting stock size ports would be good. This way the guy just wanting a stock replacement block is happy, and the Roto Rooter guys can have at it!
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:50 PM   #107
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Not sure how to spell His last name. Roy Federousky, but he's a close friend Of JWl's and has a web site here someplace with dozens of pics of his projects.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:52 PM   #108
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Default Re: New block

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Cylinder heads are also somewhat of a limiting factor on bore size and some on overall width too if you still want things to look symmetrical utilizing OEM or aftermarket heads. Basically it just has to look good and somewhat original with them on there. If the heads are changed to fit better, the design may lose some of its popularity. That would put it back into a proprietary situation.

Valve bowls & port design have some limitations with the water jacket dimensions but a different way of machining for guides could be a big help in that respect. Some folks may prefer the OEM modular valve arrangement and some may not.

The Big Cad V8 is like a 337 in size. Having the exhaust come out the top simplified the block design but complicated a lot of other things too.
Does anyone make a head that has additional coolant capacity?

Tod
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:45 PM   #109
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Default Re: New block

A while back there was ,some where I have a pic ,its in one of the Aussie hot up books by I the guy who is making the twin engined streamliner Mike Davidson.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:57 PM   #110
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Does anyone make a head that has additional coolant capacity?

Tod
Aftermarket types vary in all sorts of ways. Some were made billet style so they had to be two pieces bolted together. Ford's design was more for coolant flow velocity than for capacity. The 8BA design was the culmination of all of there flow control tactics with the longer/larger ports at the rear and smaller ones at the front so that it would force more flow towards the rear of the block, then after passing into the head it had to all come forward to the front mounted outlets to the radiator.

Barney Navarro had an interesting explanation of how some race engines were set up with a small collector soldered to copper tubes that was inserted into the block to funnel some of the water pump flow at the front and force it to go to the back and middle of the block on the engines built prior to the 8BA era. The 8BA design sort of eliminated the need for that.

Its more about the velocity of the flow and how much gets to what location than it is about volume of flow.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:08 PM   #111
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Does anyone make a head that has additional coolant capacity?

Tod
My Mike Davidson Flatattack 8BA style heads hold a combined six quarts (1-1/2 gallons) more coolant than stock. Think 4-1/4" studs. He's also doing them in an old KONG configuration. Good stuff!
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:19 PM   #112
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Not sure how to spell His last name. Roy Federousky, but he's a close friend Of JWl's and has a web site here someplace with dozens of pics of his projects.
Ron,

Thanks; I think that's the guy. I knew he had a "mittel-europa" type of name, but all I could come up with was Ray Manzaryk, but I think he was a member of the "Doors".

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Old 05-12-2017, 06:45 PM   #113
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Default Re: New block

Tod another guy u could call would be Dave Tatom in mt. Vernon Washington. if u wanted ideas on how to improve the block without compromising the use of lemon and aftermarket parts that already exist.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:12 PM   #114
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Default Re: New block

Impressive abilities.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:10 AM   #115
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Flow dynamics is a part of engineering that I should have had a better education on instead of playing around with the damn helicopters but it is interesting to touch upon now and then. Ford's engineers had a long time to play with the dynamics of it and their changes ended with the 8BA series. They wanted cool water to flow through there at a rate that wouldn't choke up the radiator or gather too much heat (not too slow and not too fast). The more coolant you have in there, the slower the pumps will be able to move it. It's a balancing act to move coolant through both the engine and the radiator. Flatheads always had large radiators but having two pumps and two separate cooling systems with a common radiator made that a requirement.

A lot of cooling problems were due to too much casting sand and core wire being stuck inside the block after the casting process. They got as much out as their process would allow but some blocks really had it stuck in there. My hand me down 1951 Mercury was purchased by my Pop when it only had about 15K miles on it with no major trips to the shop. One of my uncles did a ring job on it in the late 50s around 1957. I did the next overhaul on it in the 80s. I took the block to a Redi-Strip shop and he put it in his tank. The tank had a screen to catch all the contaminants that came out. He took a large size coffee can full of sand and wire out of there. This motor never once had heating problems that I can recall other than bad water pump and hose replacements. We rodded the radiator in 1973 and it was still clean at overhaul. It runs real cool now.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:22 AM   #116
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Default Re: New block

From what I've seen most (if not all) of the cooling issues on flatheads are core sand and wire in the blocks and/or radiator problems. Clean blocks with good water pumps and a good radiator just don't have cooling problems. If anything they run to cool without thermostats!
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:43 PM   #117
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Default Re: New block

Spent some time with my dad this afternoon tearing down more of the 8BA. Need to get the rest of the valves out so I can pull the cam and oil pump. The one piston is stuck pretty hard but I did not try to get it out yet. The rest of the block looks very solid.

Once I get it torn down enough I will begin some basic measuring to start modeling it and figuring out a casting strategy.

Tod
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:55 PM   #118
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Default Re: New block

Your getting to the typical fun parts. I've had to break up pistons to get them out. Valves are always a chore.
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:57 PM   #119
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Your getting to the typical fun parts. I've had to break up pistons to get them out. Valves are always a chore.
Yeah. I thought I'd just drill and bust the piston. The valves are a pain.

If I want to offer a 21 stud version, will the same basic block do the job?

Tod
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:14 PM   #120
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Default Re: New block

i approve of your effort.
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