The Ford Barn

Ol' Ron · 06-29-2010, 08:45 PM

Ron I agree whole Hartley what you said. I tried to use the 'quote" feature, but that included your whole thread, I just wanted the last paragraph. As a kid we rebuilt engines on the ground propped up with 2x4's. I've rebuilt a f;athead with a late crank in a 3 1/16 bore block with used pistons and rings. Had to put the rods up fron the bottom and install the pistons and pins from the top. Engine ran pretty good. Would drive it from Key wet to Miami flat out on a week end pass Took a qt of oil up and another down. WE kept a coupla gals. of oil in the trunk. As a young kid I loved working on engines, Had a go cart in "48 with a 2cyl Maytag/ no brakes.
When I built engines I charged $600 This included, Porting, partial relief, combustion chamber modifications and all assembly. The customer paid for Boring, piston fitting and Parts. Passing on this information may allow some people to get a good running engine without spending money on unnecessary "Stuff"

Bruce Lancaster · 06-30-2010, 10:45 AM

Knurling vs. brass...objective either way is mostly to get size right, with selection of reamers and/or ball broaches close sizing is possible either way. Nearly gone are the days of NOS Ford guides that were magically just the right size when you took 'em out of the box...now it's China and do what you can, rebuilding the new parts might be harder than just rebuilding what came out of the engine...like the experiences with oil pumps you posted!
Question...what are the differences between brass sleeves, brass spirals, knurling, etc.?? Oil control, durability, compatibility with stainless, chrome. etc.??

Pete · 06-30-2010, 11:25 AM

"Question...what are the differences between brass sleeves, brass spirals, knurling, etc.?? Oil control, durability, compatibility with stainless, chrome. etc.?? "

I have never noticed any difference in the sleeves and the spirals..
I have never knurled a guide..You would lose 20 to 30% of the bearing area by doing so. Knurling was developed to resurect worn out guides to get a few more miles out of them.
Bronze liners in guides are compatible with chrome valve stems and titanium valve stems.
One of the main reasons I use them is that for flathead engines I make guides from bar stock so there is enough material above the port floor to shape the port after the guide is pressed in. After the guides are in and the flow work is done the bronze liners are installed..
With a stock guide, the flat step behind the stem really hinders flow.
JWL and myself have both done extensive port flow work and port contour really makes a difference.

Bruce Lancaster · 06-30-2010, 11:39 AM

Building up area between valve stem and the cylider side of the valve seat, yes??
I first encountered this in a circa 1962 HRM article on Bingelli's unnaturally fast Willys...Flatdog was obsessed with that and with Bingelli's reported drag times.
His port shape findings came down to a straight line ("Air don't like to turn") to that side of the seat...

Ol' Ron · 06-30-2010, 04:08 PM

I thought we were talking about street engines. Just for your information the Knurled guide gives better lubrication than the stock guide. Pontiac used these in their high performance engines in the 60's. Unfortunately they didn't last long because of side loading. I was at "Bill Barth's" in CT when he and the tech rep were discussing the problem. They eventually went to a bronze liner. They were doing a lot of research on knurling back then and that's when I decided to try it in the Flathead s. I saw the guides in Johns engine, very nice.

Bruce Lancaster · 06-30-2010, 04:16 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I suspect Pete's definition of "Street engine" may be unusual...

Brian · 07-01-2010, 12:10 AM

He's possibly 'seriously disturbed'! Brian

HotRodmicky · 07-01-2010, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

"Question...what are the differences between brass sleeves, brass spirals, knurling, etc.?? Oil control, durability, compatibility with stainless, chrome. etc.?? "

I have never noticed any difference in the sleeves and the spirals..
I have never knurled a guide..You would lose 20 to 30% of the bearing area by doing so. Knurling was developed to resurect worn out guides to get a few more miles out of them.
Bronze liners in guides are compatible with chrome valve stems and titanium valve stems.
One of the main reasons I use them is that for flathead engines I make guides from bar stock so there is enough material above the port floor to shape the port after the guide is pressed in. After the guides are in and the flow work is done the bronze liners are installed..
With a stock guide, the flat step behind the stem really hinders flow.
JWL and myself have both done extensive port flow work and port contour really makes a difference.

Now we are talking!
This stuff is what i like to hear more about.
I`m still learning about Flatheads every day!
Michael

Pete · 07-01-2010, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

I suspect Pete's definition of "Street engine" may be unusual...

Hee hee...
Unusual, yes by today's standards..
The big problem is todays average hot rodder can not afford to build a fast street engine...Hot rodding basically is about more performance and going fast..Custom cars whether they be roadsters, one off body style or "rat" rods are about show or a particular "look" an owner wants to achieve...
In the 50's the typical street engine was capable of pushing a roadster 125 mph at Bonneville..
You all have read my story about driving to Bonneville and running...
That was typical of those days. I was NOT the only one that did that..
I can name at least a half dozen guys in my immediate group of friends
that did that...They all had engines with 280 degree cams, mags, 4 carbs and 10 to 1 compression...It was the belly button engine of the day.
Most of us drove our cars to work 5 days a week and to the drive in's at night also...
People seem to forget that most mods you do to an engine STRENGTHEN it.. Better rods, forged pistons, better valves etc..The only down side is piston clearance and we just learned to live with noisy pistons.
A typical belly button engine of the 50's costs over 12K to duplicate today...You can get the same performance from a SBC crate engine for $3500..
Yes, I am unusual and it makes me sick that people have to endure the mediocrity that the socio/economy has forced on us today.

Ol' Ron · 07-01-2010, 02:21 PM

The Flathead engines of the 50's were different and even though the costs of equipment was low by today standard, our wages were much lower as well.C&T made stroker kits up to 304 cifor under 200 bucks but few of us couls afford them. A brand new 4" Merc. crank was 62 dollars. We spent hours porting and relieving our engine, coping everything we read in the hop up mags. WE didn't run Bville but we did go to the drags. Our best time was 16.8 in a 3800 lb coupe. that works out to 160 HP. The car was quick at the midnight grags as well, but after 16K miles it smoked pretty bad and instead of rebuilding it we went to 370 Olds engine some head work and an Engle 95 cam cad trans and some good ripple wall slicks. Now we were in the 14 sec bracket. Mar rage and kids put an end to that.
I have a great deal of respect for Pete & jwl, if you want to see some of this custom stuff that you can't get at Reds or speed way, get a copy of JWL's book. This book tests every conceviable mod you can think of from stock to a Bonneviller 304 on a dyno.

Pete · 07-01-2010, 03:21 PM

Something else I just happened to think of.
Back in the "olden dayz" we essentially had unlimited money for cars.
Everyone I knew spent everything they made on cars or engines, minus 10% to live on.
We were all single but how many people do that today?
Just think, if you didn't have a cell phone, in 4 or 5 months you would save enough to buy a set of new heads.
If you didn't have a computer with associated internet service, in a few months you could afford a billet crank...
If you drove a beater car for daily transportation instead of a fancy 4 x 4,
you could afford titanium valves.

Ol' Ron · 07-01-2010, 06:25 PM

We have a local 1/3 mile track and they have a modified class. Not long ago I stopped in one of the shops that buils engines and they had a set of Titanium rods there for a SBC. I know the track doesn't pay all that well, makes you wonder.
I learned along time ago that all you need to win on a short track is: a car that handles, a driver with big ones and an antiquate engine. Bonneville is a different story.

Pete · 07-01-2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

We have a local 1/3 mile track and they have a modified class. Not long ago I stopped in one of the shops that buils engines and they had a set of Titanium rods there for a SBC. I know the track doesn't pay all that well, makes you wonder.
I learned along time ago that all you need to win on a short track is: a car that handles, a driver with big ones and an antiquate engine. Bonneville is a different story.

You are right on there.
We have several guys in one of our vintage clubs that are active in the World of Outlaws sprints.
They also have a complete seperate hauler with 4 vintage sprint cars in them.
These are first class VINTAGE cars but they just don't have the combination.. There are 3 backyard restored cars that always win...

By the way, think of the bragging rights you have with titanium anything..

BrianCT · 07-01-2010, 07:05 PM

Bragging rights? If I can't hear it or see it , it doesn't count.

Pete · 07-01-2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianCT

Bragging rights? If I can't hear it or see it , it doesn't count.

Same here...

Bassman/NZ · 07-01-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

Something else I just happened to think of.
Back in the "olden dayz" we essentially had unlimited money for cars.
Everyone I knew spent everything they made on cars or engines, minus 10% to live on.
We were all single but how many people do that today?
Just think, if you didn't have a cell phone, in 4 or 5 months you would save enough to buy a set of new heads.
If you didn't have a computer with associated internet service, in a few months you could afford a billet crank...
If you drove a beater car for daily transportation instead of a fancy 4 x 4,
you could afford titanium valves.

So true. Today we pay way more tax, we buy the latest TV, DVD, bluetooth, auto washing machine, dishwasher, fridge, the whole kaboodle.
When we were young we did indeed spend a larger percentage of our income on our cars. Now we are old and decrepit we have the discretionary spend which I suppose largely compensates, but the years inbetween sure were lean!

HotRodmicky · 07-02-2010, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

Something else I just happened to think of.
Back in the "olden dayz" we essentially had unlimited money for cars.
Everyone I knew spent everything they made on cars or engines, minus 10% to live on.
We were all single but how many people do that today?
Just think, if you didn't have a cell phone, in 4 or 5 months you would save enough to buy a set of new heads.
If you didn't have a computer with associated internet service, in a few months you could afford a billet crank...
If you drove a beater car for daily transportation instead of a fancy 4 x 4,
you could afford titanium valves.

Well I`m not single but i can afford to build a 304ci engine (with a cam from the worlds best cam grinder)cause the other factors Pete mentionend match me.

Ol' Ron · 07-02-2010, 06:46 PM

In the new version there is an article on the Practical Flatherd as well as mu Chili recipe.

06-29-2010, 08:45 PM	#41
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,857	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? Ron I agree whole Hartley what you said. I tried to use the 'quote" feature, but that included your whole thread, I just wanted the last paragraph. As a kid we rebuilt engines on the ground propped up with 2x4's. I've rebuilt a f;athead with a late crank in a 3 1/16 bore block with used pistons and rings. Had to put the rods up fron the bottom and install the pistons and pins from the top. Engine ran pretty good. Would drive it from Key wet to Miami flat out on a week end pass Took a qt of oil up and another down. WE kept a coupla gals. of oil in the trunk. As a young kid I loved working on engines, Had a go cart in "48 with a 2cyl Maytag/ no brakes. When I built engines I charged $600 This included, Porting, partial relief, combustion chamber modifications and all assembly. The customer paid for Boring, piston fitting and Parts. Passing on this information may allow some people to get a good running engine without spending money on unnecessary "Stuff"

06-30-2010, 10:45 AM	#42
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? Knurling vs. brass...objective either way is mostly to get size right, with selection of reamers and/or ball broaches close sizing is possible either way. Nearly gone are the days of NOS Ford guides that were magically just the right size when you took 'em out of the box...now it's China and do what you can, rebuilding the new parts might be harder than just rebuilding what came out of the engine...like the experiences with oil pumps you posted! Question...what are the differences between brass sleeves, brass spirals, knurling, etc.?? Oil control, durability, compatibility with stainless, chrome. etc.??

06-30-2010, 11:25 AM	#43
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,407	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? "Question...what are the differences between brass sleeves, brass spirals, knurling, etc.?? Oil control, durability, compatibility with stainless, chrome. etc.?? " I have never noticed any difference in the sleeves and the spirals.. I have never knurled a guide..You would lose 20 to 30% of the bearing area by doing so. Knurling was developed to resurect worn out guides to get a few more miles out of them. Bronze liners in guides are compatible with chrome valve stems and titanium valve stems. One of the main reasons I use them is that for flathead engines I make guides from bar stock so there is enough material above the port floor to shape the port after the guide is pressed in. After the guides are in and the flow work is done the bronze liners are installed.. With a stock guide, the flat step behind the stem really hinders flow. JWL and myself have both done extensive port flow work and port contour really makes a difference.

06-30-2010, 11:39 AM	#44
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? Building up area between valve stem and the cylider side of the valve seat, yes?? I first encountered this in a circa 1962 HRM article on Bingelli's unnaturally fast Willys...Flatdog was obsessed with that and with Bingelli's reported drag times. His port shape findings came down to a straight line ("Air don't like to turn") to that side of the seat...

06-30-2010, 04:08 PM	#45
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,857	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? I thought we were talking about street engines. Just for your information the Knurled guide gives better lubrication than the stock guide. Pontiac used these in their high performance engines in the 60's. Unfortunately they didn't last long because of side loading. I was at "Bill Barth's" in CT when he and the tech rep were discussing the problem. They eventually went to a bronze liner. They were doing a lot of research on knurling back then and that's when I decided to try it in the Flathead s. I saw the guides in Johns engine, very nice.

06-30-2010, 04:16 PM	#46
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I suspect Pete's definition of "Street engine" may be unusual...

07-01-2010, 12:10 AM	#47
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,829	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? He's possibly 'seriously disturbed'! Brian

07-01-2010, 02:21 PM	#50
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,857	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? The Flathead engines of the 50's were different and even though the costs of equipment was low by today standard, our wages were much lower as well.C&T made stroker kits up to 304 cifor under 200 bucks but few of us couls afford them. A brand new 4" Merc. crank was 62 dollars. We spent hours porting and relieving our engine, coping everything we read in the hop up mags. WE didn't run Bville but we did go to the drags. Our best time was 16.8 in a 3800 lb coupe. that works out to 160 HP. The car was quick at the midnight grags as well, but after 16K miles it smoked pretty bad and instead of rebuilding it we went to 370 Olds engine some head work and an Engle 95 cam cad trans and some good ripple wall slicks. Now we were in the 14 sec bracket. Mar rage and kids put an end to that. I have a great deal of respect for Pete & jwl, if you want to see some of this custom stuff that you can't get at Reds or speed way, get a copy of JWL's book. This book tests every conceviable mod you can think of from stock to a Bonneviller 304 on a dyno.

07-01-2010, 03:21 PM	#51
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,407	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? Something else I just happened to think of. Back in the "olden dayz" we essentially had unlimited money for cars. Everyone I knew spent everything they made on cars or engines, minus 10% to live on. We were all single but how many people do that today? Just think, if you didn't have a cell phone, in 4 or 5 months you would save enough to buy a set of new heads. If you didn't have a computer with associated internet service, in a few months you could afford a billet crank... If you drove a beater car for daily transportation instead of a fancy 4 x 4, you could afford titanium valves.

07-01-2010, 06:25 PM	#52
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,857	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? We have a local 1/3 mile track and they have a modified class. Not long ago I stopped in one of the shops that buils engines and they had a set of Titanium rods there for a SBC. I know the track doesn't pay all that well, makes you wonder. I learned along time ago that all you need to win on a short track is: a car that handles, a driver with big ones and an antiquate engine. Bonneville is a different story.

07-01-2010, 07:05 PM	#54
BrianCT Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windham, CT Posts: 702	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? Bragging rights? If I can't hear it or see it , it doesn't count. __________________ [FONT=Comic Sans MS]

07-02-2010, 06:46 PM	#58
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,857	Re: Merc block -next step - cam, valves and guides? In the new version there is an article on the Practical Flatherd as well as mu Chili recipe.